Thinkpads Forum

I don't have an T4X series Thinkpad but the open source drivers for my ATI Radeon X200m card is certainly squeezing out a pretty good experience!

Compiz works great. Videos aren't a problem to display in my R51e. Performance is snappy. The overall look is just crispy and the rendering of everything is very nice

Ubuntu is great... if you have the patience coupled with the right machine. I feel that every laptop has a different personality when it comes to Ubuntu. My past experience with Thinkpads and Linux are that Ubuntu is the distro of choice for me.

Maybe we just have to accept our T4x's are getting a bit long in the tooth to have the "latest & greatest" software support them !

Having said that, the efficiency improvements that the new kernel, xorg, kde have made, make for a much snappier performance comparing Suse 11.2 against 11.1 - just less or no eye-candy. But to be fair I wasn't expecting Win7 to do "aero" on my T42 either (and obviously it didn't).

A bigger surprise for me was that the ipw2200 firmware wasn't included in the openSuse 11.2 (RC) Live CDs; of course it is in the first-run suggested updates but that assumes/requires a cable connection.

Of more significance is the change openSuse has made to it graphics config UI...which has caused me to notice the wrong detection and subsequent configuration of the display I mentioned here http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=81787 - any of the hardware experts have any feedback on this?

And as I was a little unkind to Ubu in my previous post I'll have a look at the K- version over the weekend and see how it compares.

IG

emeraldgirl08 wrote:Ubuntu is great... if you have the patience coupled with the right machine

The right machine is the key here. I was very sad I could not use my X31 with Karmic...
... but I'm very happy how it is working with my X41

kiwipad wrote:Maybe we just have to accept our T4x's are getting a bit long in the tooth to have the "latest & greatest"

Well, I had to accept it not only for my TP, also for my "own hardware"

Cheers

emeraldgirl08 wrote:I don't have an T4X series Thinkpad but the open source drivers for my ATI Radeon X200m card is certainly squeezing out a pretty good experience!

Compiz works great. Videos aren't a problem to display in my R51e. Performance is snappy. The overall look is just crispy and the rendering of everything is very nice

Ubuntu is great... if you have the patience coupled with the right machine. I feel that every laptop has a different personality when it comes to Ubuntu. My past experience with Thinkpads and Linux are that Ubuntu is the distro of choice for me.

I disagree. I sure don't think it's 'great.' In fact, I'm starting to think the opposite. For such a popular distro and the idea that it is designed for 'the desktop' or mainstream use, they sure neglect a lot of things especially video hardware. Their support of drivers is pretty bad.

Your video hardware, the ATI igp you have is newer than the one I have, at least one generation ahead. With the Radeon 9000 RV250, there are a lot of problems already and Ubuntu's latest version is already released. I cannot boot up Karmic without issues or I have to use safe graphics mode.

I guess if I use a Gnome-based distro, I'll have to consider Debian or one of the others which include a gdm.

kiwipad wrote:Maybe we just have to accept our T4x's are getting a bit long in the tooth to have the "latest & greatest" software support them !

And as I was a little unkind to Ubu in my previous post I'll have a look at the K- version over the weekend and see how it compares.
IG

No, you were justified.

thinkpad1 wrote:For such a popular distro and the idea that it is designed for 'the desktop' or mainstream use, they sure neglect a lot of things especially video hardware. Their support of drivers is pretty bad

Well, it won't be the first time that a new software version is worse than previous ones

Just out of curiosity... Which TP are you testing with Ubuntu?

It's great for a lucky and some machines.

I was an unlucky R51e user when it came to anything Linux so I stayed with the W7 7100 RC. By some miracle Karmic is cooperating w/ my R51e this time so you can imagine how pleased I am with it. It seems that it's a hit or miss with Ubuntu.

I hope you find a distro that is compatible with your Thinkpad. I've got a couple of LiveCD's that I've downloaded over the last year. I feel your frustration and totally empathize.

Good luck!

emeraldgirl08 wrote:It's great for a lucky and some machines

Like my X41

emeraldgirl08 wrote:By some miracle Karmic is cooperating w/ my R51e this time

I tried 9.04 on a R50 some months ago and it worked pretty well, but did not test intensively. Later I put Win7 RC on it and gave it to my dad... It had an ATI 9000 card with 32MB if I remember correctly

Tasurinchi wrote: Just out of curiosity... Which TP are you testing with Ubuntu?

Thinkpad T41 with RV250, Mobility Radeon 9000 video card.

I tried to find some users with the same configuration using Ubuntu Karmic 9.10 (Release) but haven't yet. I assume they'll have the same experience, though.

I have the theory that Ubuntu is implementing their system (graphics driver etc. - basically anything associated with xorg, X, ATI open source drivers and anything video related including desktop effects) differently than other distros, perhaps. Even if Xorg is at a different version, it shouldn't be that much of a difference?

Anyway, I cannot boot up the LiveCD on defaults so I guess I'll try another distro.

Ubuntu 9.04 worked but I didn't install it. The LiveCD worked but I don't see no point in using it if the subsequent version doesn't work.

The difference that I noticed on my A31P (Radeon 7500 graphics) was 9.04 used XAA to accelerate graphics by default, and 9.10 used EXA by default which didn't work well with my hardware (would not display background images, and no effects). Editing xorg.config to switch 9.10 to XAA made it perform just as well as 9.04. YMMV.

thinkpad1 wrote:Anyway, I cannot boot up the LiveCD on defaults so I guess I'll try another distro

If you feel like giving Karmic a last chance, try creating a persistent installation in a USB stick and booting from there. Maybe it works differently???
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/create-a-u ... n-windows/

(I allways have a stick like that in my work backpack. Save my worked twice after my cheap Dells hard drive crashed...)

I was reading a while ago a blog where Linus Torvald was complaining that the Kernel is getting overbloated. Maybe they start making it leaner getting rid of old hardware support

Hope you find a good distro for your T41 (maybe I'll get one T4x someday)...

Cheers!

Udate on another distro: I just tried Mandriva 2010 One i586 Gnome version. It's very visually appealing and loads well initially and Compiz EVEN WORKS with my Radeon 9000 card! It's really slow and I wouldn't have it turned on most of the time but it works which is more than I can say for Ubuntu 9.10. However, the celebration soon ends as my ethernet network card cannot connect (via wired). Why is this?!? Did Mandriva break something?

I have the same ethernet card as most of you, Intel 82540EP Gigabit Ethernet Controller (Mobile) which uses the e1000 driver. I know this is really common hardware which were involved in issues in past generations of various distros.

But, I really think the hardware should work out of the box on such an older laptop. :-/

thinkpad1 wrote:However, the celebration soon ends as my ethernet network card cannot connect (via wired). Why is this?!? Did Mandriva break something?

Please see my replies in this other thread:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=81799

I'm strict when it comes to a distro for my Thinkpad. For my newer desktop, I don't care. It's new enough that I figure any distro will work on it. But, it seems distro devs are neglecting older hardware. If something I figure is major doesn't work on my Thinkpad or gives serious trouble on a LiveCD, I will not install it. So far, that means Ubuntu and Mandriva.

The last ones to try are OpenSUSE and Fedora. Although, I have little hope either will be any better. I guess it'll probably end up being Debian or a Debian-based distro. Some are fairly new and if I use Testing, it will be pretty up to date.

I have good results from Fedora 11 Gnome. I rather like it. I swap between Fedora 11 Gnome and Mandriva 2009.1 KDE (soon to be upgraded on my system to 2010 KDE).

thinkpad1 wrote:I guess it'll probably end up being Debian or a Debian-based distro

But Ubuntu is based on Debian, I will assume you'll have similar problems then... Not that I want to discourage you...

GomJabbar wrote:I have good results from Fedora 11 Gnome. I rather like it. I swap between Fedora 11 Gnome and Mandriva 2009.1 KDE (soon to be upgraded on my system to 2010 KDE).

I didn't try Mandriva 2010 KDE so I am a bit curious if the experience will be any different. I probably should so everything I try will be the same as yours.

Tasurinchi wrote:But Ubuntu is based on Debian, I will assume you'll have similar problems then... Not that I want to discourage you...

Very true, but for some reason, I had no problem trying the sidux Live DVD. The desktop effects were really slow but I'm finding that is the case no matter which distro. I do have more manual configurations because of the 'non-free' deal but things work once it's done.

I thought of looking at the default xorg.conf files in/for Mandriva and sidux and comparing to the one in Ubuntu (I had issues whenever booting the Ubuntu 9.10 Live CD and when trying desktop effects) but not sure I want to invest much time in finding a workaround for it.

thinkpad1 wrote: Very true, but for some reason, I had no problem trying the sidux Live DVD

Did you try creating a bootable Linux USB Stick? You can install the desktops effects directly in the stick and they will stay if you run it in persistent mode. A USB stick will be also faster than the slow, loud and annoying CD-ROM

thinkpad1 wrote:The desktop effects were really slow but I'm finding that is the case no matter which distro

Probably you will have to install (any) distro to the hard disk to see how it really works. Don't you have a spare disk somewhere?

Tasurinchi wrote: Did you try creating a bootable Linux USB Stick? You can install the desktops effects directly in the stick and they will stay if you run it in persistent mode. A USB stick will be also faster than the slow, loud and annoying CD-ROM
Probably you will have to install (any) distro to the hard disk to see how it really works. Don't you have a spare disk somewhere?

A USB stick is also a PITA from my experience. If you have a trouble-free method of creating one, then please share.

I have tried it and it's always A BIG FAILURE.

I used UNETbootin and it seems to work okay for the creation but when I tried to boot up with the live ISO, it gives an error message.

No, I don't have a spare disk for the laptop.

thinkpad1 wrote:If you have a trouble-free method of creating one, then please share

Well, I'm using bootable USB Sticks since Ubuntu 7.10, the following page has a very good and very easy method for creating sticks directly from windows

http://www.pendrivelinux.com/create-a-u ... n-windows/

That link is for Ubuntu only, but in the same page there are instructions for lots of other distributions as well. It took me 15 minutes to create my last stick (not counting the time I needed to download the ISO file) and is working in all my TP, my Dell from work and both my desktops at home. I would highly recommend you to try it, it's really dead easy.

I found it to be the ideal solution for those like me using X* series without ultrabase, docks, port replicators or external CD/DVD readers.

I also use the stick as recovery solution in case any PC bites the dust (and provided they boot from USB devices). Since I found this page I never carry a recovery CD anymore.

Hope this helps...

Cheers!

Okay, I'll try it, thanks. Actually, I got UNETbootin to work for me somehow as I decided to try one last time. Maybe it was a fluke but I chose my Kubuntu iso and was able to boot up.

Same darn kind of bug as Ubuntu. The Ubuntu distros really suck. The same issue that was brought up by people since Alpha 5 and 6 was ignored. Neither OS is going on my Thinkpad, that's for sure. It doesn't deserve the popularity it gets.

The site above has instructions for Mandriva as well, but I have no experience with that...

thinkpad1 wrote:It doesn't deserve the popularity it gets

I have to say that I was positively surprised with 9.10, the tests I did with my stick worked ootb in my TPs and the Desktops. Sorry to hear all the problems you are having. I know how frustrating is when something is not working as desired

Ubuntu (Gnome) 9.10 worked fine on my T43 "out of the box" too, and apart from Grub2 trying to sneak itself into my setup ("hidden" advanced option on install) it was surprisingly painless, given the large amount of negative feedback I've seen elsewhere - which IMHO is mostly down to folk not taking the time to understand what they are doing! Blue skies, sunshine and beach intervened in my weekend plan to try kubuntu

As I mentioned earlier, my personal dislike of Ubuntu is down to it trying to be too user-friendly; which is probably exactly why it is "popular" (i.e. used by a lot of people).

BTW, the fact that it (Ubuntu) is "based on" Debian will bear little relation to how it will work (or not) on specific hardware. As an example of the subtle differences, there have been two revisions of the "radeon" driver during openSuse11.2 "release candidate" phase alone, to try & solve problems with some of those ATI cards, so even within the lifetime of a specific release there will can a multitude of different potential combinations of kernel, modules, drivers and application packages, never mind comparing between distros. And different distros have different policies on how much evolution they will enable/allow within the release lifetime

Again, there is no easy answer to the thread's original question.

IG

Your T43 has an ATI card?

Anyway, thanks to all who had encouragement and who tried to help. I do appreciate it. I am sure there are methods to get things working but imho, it should be a bit more geared towards 'out of the box' function. I just think that because the hardware is older and the video graphics drivers are open source. That's just me, though.

I am giving up on it so I think I will wait until my new laptop drive arrives. I was interested in trying everything since I wasn't keeping whatever is on my current drive.

I'm getting too frustrated for nothing. I'm also really disappointed with the Ubuntu community, too, so I want to give up on that. I'll install straight Debian or sidux as I've been able to get pretty much anything to work, just more manual configuring but that's fine.

Thanks again to everyone who's replied and tried to help!

thinkpad1 wrote:Your T43 has an ATI card?

Anyway, thanks to all who had encouragement and who tried to help. I do appreciate it. I am sure there are methods to get things working but imho, it should be a bit more geared towards 'out of the box' function. I just think that because the hardware is older and the video graphics drivers are open source. That's just me, though.

I am giving up on it so I think I will wait until my new laptop drive arrives. I was interested in trying everything since I wasn't keeping whatever is on my current drive.

I'm getting too frustrated for nothing. I'm also really disappointed with the Ubuntu community, too, so I want to give up on that. I'll install straight Debian or sidux as I've been able to get pretty much anything to work, just more manual configuring but that's fine.

Thanks again to everyone who's replied and tried to help!

Ubuntu isn't known for it's snappiness. I think the open source drivers for the ATI card on the T43 is quite capable of handling 3d effects. If the laptop is really sluggish, you should do some tests to see where it exactly is bugging down, be it hard drive, processor scaling down due to heat, or dirty RAM.

tylerwylie wrote: I think the open source drivers for the ATI card on the T43 is quite capable of handling 3d effects. If the laptop is really sluggish, you should do some tests to see where it exactly is bugging down, be it hard drive, processor scaling down due to heat, or dirty RAM.

It' slow when it works when it's worked in the other distros I've tried. In ubuntu, it's unusable. It'll give a hard crash so I have to use the power off/on. It won't even 'turn on' the 3d effects unless I edit the xorg file.

thinkpad1 wrote: It' slow when it works when it's worked in the other distros I've tried. In ubuntu, it's unusable. It'll give a hard crash so I have to use the power off/on. It won't even 'turn on' the 3d effects unless I edit the xorg file.

Have you tried anything else besides Ubuntu?

I've tried Mepis (it was installed on my previous hard drive, a 40GB stock version);
sidux (mostly everything worked but needed manual configuration - have decided to install this OS);
OpenSUSE (1/2 of the desktop effects worked, not sure if it was OpenGL or 'Rendering');
Mandriva (desktop effects worked but could not get a wired connection)

I thought I'd have two Linux distros and XP on my Thinkpad since my 160GB drive should have enough space for three operating systems but now I'm thinking maybe just XP and one other distro.

I thought Ubuntu would work more conveniently as I really wasn't in the mood to do a lot of manual configuration on my laptop (I still have a desktop that I multi-boot). But, it's not a big deal really as I have some experience with manual configuration but xorg/X issues always seem complicated/confusing. I'm proud to have configured Nvidia drivers on my desktop but that is always easily breakable, I understand.

I believe that the ATI card in the T43 is different than the T42 series and below. Isn't it an ATI Radeon X300 or based on the X300? That card is at least a generation higher than the Mobility Radeon 9000. I find the 9000 is just below the so-called sweet spot. It seems everything above it is usable out of the box and the Radeon 9000 and below needs a lot of manual editing of the video configuration files (e.g. xorg.conf) or you experience issues as I've described.

Neil wrote:

The difference that I noticed on my A31P (Radeon 7500 graphics)

Incorrect. A31p has Fire GL 7800 GPU which is based on Radeon 7500 but much more powerful with 64MB VRAM. Better driver support in most distros IMO.

thinkpad1 wrote:

I believe that the ATI card in the T43 is different than the T42 series and below. Isn't it an ATI Radeon X300 or based on the X300?

Correct. It is indeed X300 which is a pretty different card in most respects from 7500-9000-9600-T2 which have powered the earlier T4x series.