Thinkpads Forum

Hello,
I've read a few threads on Linux usage on the T40 series and I realize that many modern distros are even very usable on T4x series but I still have a few questions.

I am wondering if the new KDE 4 (4.2) poses any problem on these Thinkpads. The graphics cards are various ATI or Intel models although mine is the 9000 card. Is this okay for distros that have KDE 4.2 as default such as Kubuntu and I think Mandriva and possibly OpenSUSE have it as default or an option? Also, Ubuntu offers GNOME 2.26 and Compiz is at 0.8.2 so I am wondering if either the Gnome or KDE 4 desktop poses any possible obstacles along with Compiz.

I don't really need the desktop effects so my question is mostly about the various desktops and how they would effect the T41 I have and the ATI 9000 card.

I would like to know how it would effect other Thinkpads, too, in case I ever got another one. For e.g., I found a T43 that I was impressed with and it had an ATI X300 so I guess a more powerful graphics card and cpu would mean less concern. But, some Thinkpads have ATI 7500, 9000 and 9600 cards. I suppose an Intel GPU would be okay and I don't need to know about other graphics cards that aren't Intel or ATI because I don't think I'd get anything lower than a T4x series Thinkpad.

The distros I'm considering I've used before on my desktop so I would like to install one of them on the Thinkpad T41 I have. I had Mepis previously installed but when I got the T41 'repaired' I had to wipe out the OS because I wanted to clone the previous drive (I upgraded my HDD) and both Cloning software programs would not do it for some reason. I cloned XP only.

Here's the distros:
Kubuntu 9.04 Jaunty or Ubuntu (if Gnome would be better on my Thinkpad T41)

Debian (but, I like my software more up to date)

sidux

Fedora 11 (2nd out of two distros I will install)

Please recommend.

Thanks.

I use Mandriva 2009.1 KDE on my T42. KDE 4.2.2 works pretty well, and I like it, although Gnome and XFCE are also available. Mandriva has some of the best tools of any distro (MCC - Mandriva Linux Control Center) for managing your system.

Legacy ATI GPU's are no longer supported by the ATI propriatary driver as of Feb. 2009. All the latest distro releases that use X server 1.6 or above will not be able to use the ATI Catalyst 3 driver. The open source radeon drivers work ok, but I do miss the propriatary driver. If you want to use the propriatary driver, Mandriva 2008.1 is an excellent release.

http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/l ... ng=English

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... &px=NzExOQ

I tried the latest beta of Mandriva 2010 but it has NO LiveCD. There was no option to boot a Live version as there was only options to boot up the hard drive or to install.

What is another good distro choice? OpenSUSE? K/Ubuntu? Fedora?

Mandriva 2010 is beta. I am quite sure there will be a live CD when it goes final - slated for Nov. 3rd, this year. Mandriva 2009.1 is only 4 or 5 months old and has a live CD.

That said, I do like Fedora 11 quite a bit too. I have them both installed.

GomJabbar wrote:Mandriva 2010 is beta. I am quite sure there will be a live CD when it goes final - slated for Nov. 3rd, this year. Mandriva 2009.1 is only 4 or 5 months old and has a live CD.

That said, I do like Fedora 11 quite a bit too. I have them both installed.

Thanks for that info! I guess I could wait. However, I was a bit disappointed since I expected the DVD was 'Live' as even the *Buntus have live versions even at their Alpha stages.

Mandriva's installation GUI screen looked promising, though. Anyway, it's not like I couldn't switch distros after a short while. It wouldn't be heavily customized at that short a time.

Do you use KDE 4 Fedora? Some Linux users claim that Ubuntu and Fedora don't put much into KDE and feel they're "Gnome-centric" distros.

I am using KDE in Mandriva and Gnome in Fedora. First time using Gnome really. Both KDE and Gnome work for me.

thinkpad1 wrote:I tried the latest beta of Mandriva 2010 but it has NO LiveCD. There was no option to boot a Live version as there was only options to boot up the hard drive or to install.

It turns out that the Live CD came out a little late. It is available now. Actually it should have been available when you made your post a few days ago, but I never checked.
http://forum.mandriva.com/viewtopic.php?t=115860

http://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/p ... 10.0/beta/

Mandriva is cool, no questions asked.

However, I'm running Mint 7 on my T43p and loving it, definitely worth a test drive.

+1 for Mint 7.

Mint uses the Ubuntu repositories and is a lot of tweaking of Ubuntu, isn't it?

I tried a LiveCD a while back and it looked pretty good.

I was wondering two things, though. Should I use the Gnome version or KDE? I have KDE distros on my desktop but was wondering how the newer KDE 4 would be on my Thinkpad T41. Some users say the memory use is extremely high, others complain that it is bulky while other users say that it's lighter than KDE 3.5. I don't know which to believe but if Gnome even seems lighter, I'd choose a Gnome desktop and distro.

The other questions regards the kernel in Mint. Mint uses an older kernel than Karmic 9.10 so I was wondering if you could set the sources list to include an Ubuntu repo to upgrade the kernel. I went to the Mint forum and found a thread on this. Some users said go ahead, they're (i.e. Mint) using Ubuntu while other people said you can get into a lot of problems so don't.

I just wonder why I just wouldn't use Ubuntu since Mint uses a significant chunk of it? Or does Mint offer particular benefits? Oops, sorry, an extra question.

GNOME is definately a lighter DM than KDE, so if your concerns are speed and low resourse use, then GNOME is the clear choice. It definately does not have as many bells and whistles as KDE though, so there are some trade-offs. As far as why Mint over Ubuntu...it is not nearly as bloated (has many base programs stripped away) and it comes multimedia enabled. Certain codecs that you wouldn't ordinarly find enabled in a base distro work out of the box. Other than that, since Mint uses the Ubuntu repositories, the sky is the limit on what you can add to it. As far as the kernel question, I never mess with them, so I am the wrong person to answer that specific question. My opinion is that with old hardware like a T42 or T43 I doubt that you'd be looking for cutting edge kernel enhancements anyway unless you have done recent hardware upgrades.

Thanks for that reply, Harry.

Do you use any KDE or should I say Qt applications? The GTK+ one that I use especially is Synaptic. That is my favourite and preferred package manager. I am also more used to apt-get (using CLI) than the others.

With KDE-based apps, I especially use Kaffeine, Amarok and k3B. Do you know how well it works in Mint, Ubuntu or in Gnome, generally? If they can adequately operate in that mixed environment, then I'd more than seriously consider a Gnome-based distro.

I think speed and low resource use would be preferable with my Thinkpad T41 just because of what the hardware is. It might be no slouch but it's not 64-bit and is the Pentium M processor, 1.7 MHz. I do have 1GB RAM but some say that KDE 4.2 or 4.3 works best with 2GB RAM? Even if I added another stick, it might be easier to just use the GDM?

My desktop is a Quad Core machine so there is no concern about resources so I use KDE-centric distros. I don't mind learning Gnome although it is preferable that I am able to use the applications I mentioned above without (desktop-related) issues.

I don't use any KDE apps. GNOME has some decent built-ins these days for CD burning (Brasero), for audio (Rhythmbox), and movies (Mplayer). It really all depends on what you do with those apps as far as if these are the right choice for your particular needs. It is very easy to install K3B on GNOME if that is your preference. I haven't tried Amarok or Kaffeine. Mint uses Synaptic as well.

Amarok 2 in KDE 4.2 is still a work in progress. Often, things you expect it to do, don't work (yet). Amarok 1.4 was a better app.

Gnome may be a lighter DE than KDE, but Mandriva 2009.1 KDE boots faster than Fedora 11 Gnome on my T42.

thinkpad1 wrote:Thanks for that reply, Harry.

Do you use any KDE or should I say Qt applications? The GTK+ one that I use especially is Synaptic. That is my favourite and preferred package manager. I am also more used to apt-get (using CLI) than the others.

The best part about QT4 is you can have them use your GTK theme so they fit in with a GNOME desktop, which is great because I prefer a lot of QT apps but prefer GNOME to KDE.

thinkpad1 wrote: With KDE-based apps, I especially use Kaffeine, Amarok and k3B. Do you know how well it works in Mint, Ubuntu or in Gnome, generally? If they can adequately operate in that mixed environment, then I'd more than seriously consider a Gnome-based distro.

You can use those in GNOME, or KDE.. or XFCE. Kaffeine/K3B use QT3 still as opposed to QT4, so they will have a separate setting for theming

thinkpad1 wrote: I think speed and low resource use would be preferable with my Thinkpad T41 just because of what the hardware is. It might be no slouch but it's not 64-bit and is the Pentium M processor, 1.7 MHz. I do have 1GB RAM but some say that KDE 4.2 or 4.3 works best with 2GB RAM? Even if I added another stick, it might be easier to just use the GDM?

GNOME and KDE are both hogs, and use similar amounts of RAM on my machine, however KDE will make more efficient use of your memory. You should look at XFCE, a more lightweight GTK based environment that doesn't hurt so much on the resource side.

thinkpad1 wrote: My desktop is a Quad Core machine so there is no concern about resources so I use KDE-centric distros. I don't mind learning Gnome although it is preferable that I am able to use the applications I mentioned above without (desktop-related) issues.

There isn't much to learn in GNOME, I use it and KDE 4.3 quite often, KDE has a steeper learning curve when it comes to desktop features compared to GNOME.

So maybe boot up LiveCDs of Xubuntu and Ubuntu and seek which desktop I like?

Unfortunately, the latest Ubuntu Karmic won't run for long on a liveCD on my Thinkpad T41. Anyone try it on their T4x series? I'm not sure why but it crashes and freezes after a few minutes.

Anyway, the XFCE desktop sounds interesting. So, if I want to use QT apps or KDE programs, I just install the KDE libs? The negative is installing more stuff so using more space?

The other option might be adding another 1GB stick of RAM? Does that get me any worthwhile benefit or is the CPU a bottle neck? I have the 1.6 MHz processor so it's not a slouch but not super fast, that's for sure. I'm not too particular to any distro as far as my Thinkpad goes. I can use any one I want on my desktop and not worry about resources since it's powerful enough. The laptop is a different story, however.

Mint 7 sounds interesting. I wish they were a bit more up to date as I'm a bit picky that way. Not that it's a major benefit but if I can use Ubuntu repos, I can try the newer most up-to-date software?

Anyway, I think I will try Mint 7, Mandriva and maybe Xubuntu some time soon. I need to re-install Windoze anyway and I don't put too much data on my Thinkpad. I try to keep it on an external drive so a few re-installs won't be a problem.

thinkpad1 wrote:Mint 7 sounds interesting. I wish they were a bit more up to date as I'm a bit picky that way. Not that it's a major benefit but if I can use Ubuntu repos, I can try the newer most up-to-date software?

My opinion is that yeah, Ubuntu is cutting edge. But that can sometimes cause problems.
Where Mint is using stable apps that have been tested and the bugs worked out. So you have a more stable distro.
That's just something you have to decide on the trade-offs .

Mandriva also is a distro I have run. And it was very stable. But I don't think the function keys for brightness worked.

ajkula66 wrote:I'm running Mint 7 on my T43p and loving it, definitely worth a test drive.

Tried Mint 7 many moons ago. Liked it very much. It is an attractive alternative especially for Ubuntu users, however, I found the laptop fan ran constantly and it was impossible to install any kind of fan control software with this release and a T41. Ended up uninstalling and going back to Ubuntu 8.1 which works well ( and is silent using fan control )

If anyone uses Mint 7 and has effective fan control software working please let me know . The standard install multimedia features of Mint are sooo much better than Ubuntu and Mint does things with MM I cannot get Ubuntu to do!

@sojourner:

I honestly don't have the need for any fan controlling software on my T43p with Mint 7, but then again, I don't do anything dramatic on it...web, some office stuff, DVD once in a very blue moon...

thinkpad1 wrote:Anyway, the XFCE desktop sounds interesting. So, if I want to use QT apps or KDE programs, I just install the KDE libs? The negative is installing more stuff so using more space?

It also uses slightly more memory since you are loading more shared libraries (GTK and QT). Although it's not really something anyone notices on modern hardware (the T42 included). I would not hesitate to install both libraries. It lets you use more apps!

Also, don't forget about the other Ubuntu derivatives. Kubuntu and Crunchbang (#!). Crunchbang is a bit more lighterweight than Xubuntu. I never found Xubuntu to really live up to its claims of being lightweight compared with using straight Ubuntu with Gnome and GTK libs. Also Kubuntu isn't much heavier than GNOME (maybe 10-11MB of RAM difference, if that?). Kubuntu is based on KDE 4.2.x now (4.3.x is the latest) and many (some people?) don't like the KDE interfaces or in particular don't like KDE4. I have no problem with that. However some of the KDE4 plasmids are "cool" albeit RAM hungry if you use a lot of them. So I'll leave it up for you to decide!

The other option might be adding another 1GB stick of RAM? Does that get me any worthwhile benefit or is the CPU a bottle neck? I have the 1.6 MHz processor so it's not a slouch but not super fast

I find the Linux overhead (CPU and memory) to be comparable to that of an Windows XP installation. This is if you are using a Desktop Environment (DE) that uses the GTK or QT shared libraries (XFCE/GNOME/KDE). Your T42 should be fine with all of these DEs. The distros that tend to be really lightweight are are ones like Blackbox/Fluxbox/Openbox or IceWM or Enlightenment. However they lack the full 'DE' one gets with XFCE, GNOME, or KDE. Of the lightweight WMs I mentioned, Openbox is probably the most modern and a good place to start for a newbie.

I wish they were a bit more up to date as I'm a bit picky that way. Not that it's a major benefit but if I can use Ubuntu repos, I can try the newer most up-to-date software?

One word. Sidux. It's based on the Unstable branch of Debian code-named Sid. Sidux works well in helping the end user wade though the confusing universe that is Debian unstable. The unstable branch of Debian would be comparable to Fedora in the Red had world. Unstable Debian isn't as unstable as the name would have you believe. You'vre highlighted the problem with the stable branch of Debian (aka ubuntu) the software versions in the repositories aren't the latest and greatest. Or you could adjust your repos list to include more upto date packages. I do agree that some of the versions of things in the Stable branch can get a little stale at times and dare I say boring at other times! The frozen versions just tend to be a little older versions, that's all.

One thing I do want to say about Debian stable, is that the packages are all tested and upgrading is very reliable. If fact it's dead reliable. I can't say the same for Debian unstable. Although the unstable software itself usually runs fine, in a few instances one might get stuck with a package whose dependencies can't be met. It can get a tad interesting at times to back out of that but it's nothing too terrible.

Also, if you aren't set on the idea of using an Ubuntu derivative or anything based on Debian, there is also Fedora 11. Fedora tends to be fairly cutting edge and upgrading packages via 'yum' (Fedora's equivalent to 'apt-get') is very reliable.

Well, my recommendation will be to wait for Ubuntu 9.10 (to be released soon)

Ubuntu is maybe less "tweaked" like other distros like Mint 7, Mandriva or Fedora. But it works fine and it has a huge fan base and great forum support. Which I consider to be something very valuable.

I started using Ubuntu since version 7.10 with a T30, never had big issues and most of the stuff works out of the box. Look at my signature!

just my 0.02 cents...

Cheers

Tasurinchi wrote:Well, my recommendation will be to wait for Ubuntu 9.10 (to be released soon)

Ubuntu is maybe less "tweaked" like other distros like Mint 7, Mandriva or Fedora. But it works fine and it has a huge fan base and great forum support. Which I consider to be something very valuable.

I started using Ubuntu since version 7.10 with a T30, never had big issues and most of the stuff works out of the box. Look at my signature!

just my 0.02 cents...

Cheers

Ubuntu is more tweaked, and Mint is a more tweaked Ubuntu. Fedora submits their patches upstream and is less tweaked, and I am not familiar with Mandriva. If you want untweaked distributions, look at Slackware, Debian, or Gentoo.

Well, I tried a LiveCD of Ubuntu 9.10 on my T41. I have to utilize 'safe graphics mode' to boot up or the desktop crashes as soon as it's loaded.

I also can't use 'desktop effects.' What is this called? Compositing or something? Anyway, I receive a message that 'desktop effects cannot be enabled' or something like that. I tried this the other day so I don't recall the exact wording. It's not a big deal but a bit of a letdown. Something is wrong or not working properly? I expected desktop effects to at least work on the first level but to be really slow.

What would you do? Would this situation be a deal breaker for you or would you take the time to try and figure out the fix? I just think that with the release, they would have worked out the kinks.

I am leaning towards a Gnome-based distro such as Ubuntu or Debian but with all the good ideas, perspectives and suggestions, I'm still not sure. I think KDE 4 might be too resource heavy even though one of my favorite distros, sidux, is now using it. But, KDE 4 seems like it's trying really hard with the eye candy and I'm not sure my T41 is suited for it (so, it's not necessary).

However, I would like stuff to 'just work' even if it's slow or somewhat sloppy compared to a Quad Core machine or something.

I guess I should try xfce but which distro then? Xubuntu? Some of the apps I *need* to use include: Firefox (or similar browser), Kaffeine, Amarok or similar media player (which Gnome one is a fav for Gnome users?), OpenOffice, which editor (GUI?)? I guess that is it for a laptop... I am sure there are other apps I would use but those are the 'musts' for now...

I have ordered my Samsung HM160HC HDD and soon will add another 1GB of RAM. I am still contemplating buying a replacement keyboard as my current one still has a few sticky keys.

Desktop effects don't always work in LiveCds, at least not for me, but have worked once installed.

I find that KDE 4.3 isn't as heavy as the previous versions and in the new Kubuntu Karmic they seem to have cut some fat by not installing by default many KDE bits that are not hugely popular. In fact I have installed K Karmic my boyfriend's niece's computer the other week, which is about 7 years old and has 512mb RAM and to my surprise everything worked flawlessly, including most of the dekstop effects, and it was quite snappy as well (for a system of that age).

If you have any data to lose on the hard drive I would actually try and install whatever distro(s) you are thinking of and see how they feel once installed on the hard drive.

thinkpad1 wrote:I have to utilize 'safe graphics mode' to boot up or the desktop crashes as soon as it's loaded.

That surprises me. I never had a desktop crash in my X* machines (see details below). Never used the live CD though, normally I create a "live USB Stick" (as I lack of external drives for my X* machines) and boot from there to test the first time a new release is out.

I was using different Ubuntu releases (previous to Karmic) in a T30 and never had problems with Gnome as well.

A little bit off-topic... Which graphic card does your T41 have? I was using Ubuntu 9.04 in my X31 (ATI Mobility Radeon with 16Mb) before, but found out that graphic performance was slow when browsing some internet sites with heavy flash effects.

My 0.02 cents...

Cheers

Tasurinchi, the graphics card question is probably actually on topic for the previous issues especially if the answer for the T41 is ATI. Since early this year the proprietary ATI drivers ceased support for these "legacy" cards. And the native kernel drivers now appear unable to support 3D effects.

Example, with openSuse my T43 (FireGL) will happily do the desktop effects in KDE4.2.3 with kernel 2.6.27 but not KDE4.3.1 with kernel 2.6.31 (admittedly still at RC); the T42 (radeon7500) hasn't done desktop effects since KDE3.5.x Ubu 9.10 (Gnome) seems to do 3D on the T43 but haven't tried it extensively.

Not having 3D isn't exactly the end of the world...but they can be amusing !

More irritating is KDE network manager still being broken !

But as the original topic has been revived, and despite the above gripes, my vote goes for openSuse (11.2 "real soon now") - always looks slick, usually works ...and doesn't treat you like an idiot

IG

kiwipad, you are correct! The graphics card in my T41 is indeed ATI, the Radeon Mobility 9000 (aka RV250, I believe) to be exact. The thing is, I have had some degree of 'success' (if you want to call it that) using desktop effects in sidux and OpenSUSE (one of them at least would only allow Rendering - I think! Not OpenGL setting or is it the other way around?). That is what is puzzling me. Could it be the version of xorg Xserver or the kernel version that is having an impact, I don't know. But, in the recent release of Ubuntu Karmic 9.10, desktop effects can't be switched on during a LiveCD session. Would it work if I installed to the hard drive? I don't know but I am not betting much money on it.

Thanks for the continued replies, btw!

Yes, Mandriva and OpenSUSE look really intriguing!!!! Their systems (different package management) are not what I'm used to but man, are they up to date and I think I will create the Live CDs/DVDs of them, too but I will install each of these to the HDD when I get it. They all deserve a chance!

I have a legacy ATI card on my work PC (ThinkStation), don't remember the model exactly, but since 9.04 I have to use radeon drivers for it. To make a boring story short, the KDE desktop effects work for me with radeon driver. Not all of them, but the ones that don't work with radeon don't work with fglrx either.

I'm not sure what Ubuntu do differently, but I've actually never had the compositing working on a liveCD. It's been a while since I've used Mandriva and have never used OpenSUSE, so I don't know what happens there.

kiwipad wrote:Since early this year the proprietary ATI drivers ceased support for these "legacy" cards. And the native kernel drivers now appear unable to support 3D effects

Yeah, I've read that a while after installing 9.04 on my X31, that's why I decided to go for Win7. Was too lazy to start looking for extra solutions and/or go arounds... The main drawback for me was the sluggish performance with browsing and videos. I had at that time 9.04 as well in my X41 (Intel graphic card) and the difference in speed was like night and day...

thinkpad1 wrote:I will install each of these to the HDD when I get it. They all deserve a chance!

If I understood correctly from kiwipad, the issue with the lack of support for legacy ATI cards lies on the Kernel. I don't think it should be different with Mandriva or openSUSE, should it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should not try though. Keep us posted about the results, maybe there is a way for my X31 to go back to Linux

Cheers

If I understood correctly from kiwipad, the issue with the lack of support for legacy ATI cards lies on the Kernel.

The issue is that since around April this year most distributions started shipping a new Xserver and older ATI drivers were not compatible with it. AMD have released new ATI drivers for newer cards while older (but not necessarily old) cards were not supported anymore.

In my experience, for everyday use (i.e. not gaming) the open source radeon driver works well and some KDE 3D effects actually work better with the open source driver than with the proprietary driver.

I've also understood that some ATI cards older are now supported for Windows 7 and that users need to install generic VGA drivers to get those cards to work, so it's not even something that only affects Linux users, it's just that not many Windows user have found out about those issues yet.