The ThinkPad is Dead, Long Live..... ?

[thinkmad1978]

I'm sure similar posts exist (or maybe they don't), so I will get this off my chest quickly:

When IBM threw in the towel and sold their PC line to Lenovo, that was the end for the ThinkPad. I knew it was. I knew exactly the direction that things would go: straight down.

I've been a ThinkPad user all of my life. They were always the best laptops and businesses swore by them exclusively. But what makes something the "best" in an era where the internal components of every PC are all made by third party companies?

Simply put: What made the ThinkPad the best was that it was the only laptop designed for SERIOUS WORK. They were well made, and they had a keyboard ideally suited for extended typing. I have owned and used several ThinkPads over the years and I've never seen one die.

Unfortunately, we live in an age where 99.9% of computer users have a computer only to play games. Turn back the clock 25 years and 99.9% of people couldn't afford a laptop computer. The people that owned one had a legitimate reason for investing in one: they had a job to do and the ThinkPad was the tool for business. It wasn't for screwing around.

Also unfortunate is that the majority seems to drag everything down to the lowest common denominator. Most people are not "power users". Most people have no idea what "good" is because they've never experienced it. Most people have low standards and most people settle for less today than generations prior. (Less quality, less service, less everything.)

Every change that Lenovo has made to the ThinkPad line has been more gimmick than substance, and they finally started to mess with their meal ticket when they touched the keyboard and started omitting the TrackPoint on low end Lenovo models.

Despite nearly everyone using TouchPads these days, the TrackPoint still wins. You can still navigate faster and easier using the TrackPoint (while keeping your fingers on the keyboard for typing) than you can with a TouchPad. The majority may prefer TouchPads, but it doesn't change the fact that the TrackPoint (in the hands of a user that knows what they're doing) is the superior technology and wins every time. (Little things like that get on my nerves. Most users aren't typing on their laptop so what would they know about the benefits of the TrackPoint over a Touchpad?)

It's a sad state of affairs. Where does a power user go these days to find what used to exist at IBM years ago? Is Dell now the business king of laptops?

[Cigarguy]

I agree with you about build quality, keyboard and crap screens. But 99.9% of users are not gamers. My guess would be about 20-30%. Both HP and Toshiba have recently introduced high res IPS screens so that's where I will look to for my next new laptop.

[Puppy]

Even Acer has introduced workstation 15.6" FHD matte IPS model for ~800 EUR price http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Ace ... 610.0.html

[thinkmad1978]

I agree with you about build quality, keyboard and crap screens. But 99.9% of users are not gamers. My guess would be about 20-30%. Both HP and Toshiba have recently introduced high res IPS screens so that's where I will look to for my next new laptop.

I hate to rant about such things but this was brewing for a long time, and I'm in the market for a new laptop. It's sad to watch a legend slowly die. It's like watching an aging fighter that doesn't have it anymore. I was hoping (a fools hope I suppose) that by moving things overseas to China it would allow Lenovo to maintain the quality of the ThinkPads but bring the price down such that they could remain competitive. Of course that never happens. The price stayed high (premium pricing strategy), but everything else suffered.

Lenovo has fallen into the familiar trap of style over substance. They want thin laptops with colorful cases and "spill resistant" keyboards. Whether or not they're the kind of system you can use eight hours a day for work is beside the point.

Thanks for the tip, I will take a look.

[jdk]

I don't know if you are trolling, but I believe you hit the nail on the head. I will not insult my customers by providing specific details, but they are exactly the people you described.

The people you described are Lenovo's target demographic now, not enterprise business users. Lenovo lost the enterprise years ago and they lost many other customers over the T4x line failures. The last four refresh projects I worked with went this way: Toughbook (2007), Latitude D6x0 series (2008), Latitude E6x00 series (2011), and Elitebook (2012). The smallest of these deployments was 15,000 machines. Even NASA is running Elitebooks now. Lenovo does not come up in conversation at all, except the one time I threw the name out during a meeting and got shot down because of the reliability issues that plagued them in the mid 2000's.

Lenovo has lost a lot of business building business-class machines, so they started courting the consumer market with pseudo-business computers. I imagine this will sway more heavily towards consumer-grade products in the forthcoming years, especially as laptops become more ubiquitous. The reality is that nobody wants to pay five thousand dollars for a personal laptop that will be obsolete with the next iteration of CPUs. If we did, the people on this forum would all be sporting Elitebook 8770W Workstations and Panasonic Toughbooks.

One day the economies of scale will leave the laptop market entirely. The people who want me to install FREE GAMES on the repurposed Thinkpads I built for them will move on to iPads and Android Tablets. Maybe then the Thinkpad brand rebounds to become a quality enterprise-class machine with professional keyboard layouts and quality screens. I wouldn't count on it though.

[pianowizard]

thinkmad1978, welcome to the forum.

Simply put: What made the ThinkPad the best was that it was the only laptop designed for SERIOUS WORK. They were well made

*Some* of IBM's Thinkpads were well made. The I series was equivalent to today's Edge series, and I was never impressed by the build quality of IBM's R series. The R series continued for several years after Lenovo took over, and its build quality actually improved quite a bit.

Despite nearly everyone using TouchPads these days, the TrackPoint still wins. You can still navigate faster and easier using the TrackPoint (while keeping your fingers on the keyboard for typing) than you can with a TouchPad.

Please change all occurrences of "you" to "I". You probably don't come to this forum often enough to know that people here have had this touchpad vs. trackpoint debate hundreds of times. The conclusion that I have drawn from these debates is that for most people, the touchpad is initially more intuitive than the trackpoint, and so most people go for the touchpad without ever trying to learn the trackpoing. For those who spend some time learning to get comfortable with the trackpoint, they prefer it over the touchpad after a while, and about a decade ago I was one of these people. But it actually takes a lot longer to truly *master* the touchpad than the trackpoint. After spending close to a year to master the touchpad, I have since preferred it over the trackpoint, but of course, external mice still trump both, indicating that whether or not the hands needs to leave the keyboard is largely irrelevant.

It's a sad state of affairs. Where does a power user go these days to find what used to exist at IBM years ago? Is Dell now the business king of laptops?

It's impossible to generalize. Instead, we need to look at specific models. The most general statement we can make is this: the best Thinkpads, Precisions, and Elitebooks are more or less equally good, although all of them are eclipsed by the best Toughbooks.

I was hoping (a fools hope I suppose) that by moving things overseas to China it would allow Lenovo to maintain the quality of the ThinkPads but bring the price down such that they could remain competitive. Of course that never happens. The price stayed high (premium pricing strategy), but everything else suffered.

I totally disagree with you on this. Prices have dropped a great deal after Lenovo took over, while quality has dropped much less. On the other hand, customer support and Thinkpad designs have indeed gotten worse, and the latter was why I abandoned Thinkpads nearly 3 years ago, after owning 40+ Thinkpads.

[thinkmad1978]

I don't know if you are trolling, but I believe you hit the nail on the head. I will not insult my customers by providing specific details, but they are exactly the people you described.

I never troll, I just tell it like it is. I hope Lenovo has staff that are paid to follow internet forums like these. It's free feedback and an opportunity for them to improve their product. A lot of failing companies don't even get that much.

The people you described are Lenovo's target demographic now, not enterprise business users. Lenovo lost the enterprise years ago and they lost many other customers over the T4x line failures. The last four refresh projects I worked with went this way: Toughbook (2007), Latitude D6x0 series (2008), Latitude E6x00 series (2011), and Elitebook (2012). The smallest of these deployments was 15,000 machines. Even NASA is running Elitebooks now. Lenovo does not come up in conversation at all, except the one time I threw the name out during a meeting and got shot down because of the reliability issues that plagued them in the mid 2000's.

I'm taking a look at the Dell website right now.

Lenovo has lost a lot of business building business-class machines, so they started courting the consumer market with pseudo-business computers. I imagine this will sway more heavily towards consumer-grade products in the forthcoming years, especially as laptops become more ubiquitous. The reality is that nobody wants to pay five thousand dollars for a personal laptop that will be obsolete with the next iteration of CPUs. If we did, the people on this forum would all be sporting Elitebook 8770W Workstations and Panasonic Toughbooks.

One day the economies of scale will leave the laptop market entirely. The people who want me to install FREE GAMES on the repurposed Thinkpads I built for them will move on to iPads and Android Tablets. Maybe then the Thinkpad brand rebounds to become a quality enterprise-class machine with professional keyboard layouts and quality screens. I wouldn't count on it though.

It's a shame though. I don't understand how a company can take over a winning product and run it into the ground. IBM already did the heavy lifting for them. All Lenovo had to do was keep putting new processors in there and it was a cash cow for life. They managed to destroy the only things that made the ThinkPad unique and desired in the marketplace.

[thinkmad1978]

thinkmad1978, welcome to the forum.

Hi. Thanks for having me.

*Some* of IBM's Thinkpads were well made. The I series was equivalent to today's Edge series, and I was never impressed by the build quality of IBM's R series. The R series continued for several years after Lenovo took over, and its build quality actually improved quite a bit.

I never used the R series.

Please change all occurrences of "you" to "I". You probably don't come to this forum often enough to know that people here have had this touchpad vs. trackpoint debate hundreds of times. The conclusion that I have drawn from these debates is that for most people, the touchpad is initially more intuitive than the trackpoint, and so most people go for the touchpad without ever trying to learn the trackpoing. For those who spend some time learning to get comfortable with the trackpoint, they prefer it over the touchpad after a while, and about a decade ago I was one of these people. But it actually takes a lot longer to truly *master* the touchpad than the trackpoint. After spending close to a year to master the touchpad, I have since preferred it over the trackpoint, but of course, external mice still trump both, indicating that whether or not the hands needs to leave the keyboard is largely irrelevant.

I was just thinking of this again and another reason why the TrackPoint wins is because the placement of the TouchPad at the bottom of a keyboard results in accidental mouse clicks and movements while typing. This happened to me (and anyone that briefly used my work laptop computer). One minute they would be typing a sentence, the next minute another window in the background has been clicked on, brought to the front, and a menu is hanging open. All in the blink of an eye, and all because of the TouchPad (which could not be disabled).

It's impossible to generalize. Instead, we need to look at specific models. The most general statement we can make is this: the best Thinkpads, Precisions, and Elitebooks are more or less equally good, although all of them are eclipsed by the best Toughbooks.

True. For me, the keyboard is the most important component. I won't use Canadian or British type keyboards because they changed the location of the Backslash (\) key and messed with the Enter key. I only buy US standard keyboards, and it has to be something that is as easy to type on as a full sized desktop keyboard.

I totally disagree with you on this. Prices have dropped a great deal after Lenovo took over, while quality has dropped much less. On the other hand, customer support and Thinkpad designs have indeed gotten worse, and the latter was why I abandoned Thinkpads nearly 3 years ago, after owning 40+ Thinkpads.

I think the "Edge" series of ThinkPads is the only really affordable line, but the others have remained very expensive. I guess it depends where you shop.

[pianowizard]

I was just thinking of this again and another reason why the TrackPoint wins is because the placement of the TouchPad at the bottom of a keyboard results in accidental mouse clicks and movements while typing.

Somehow this has never happened to me, and I have owned dozens of laptops with touchpads.

True. For me, the keyboard is the most important component. I won't use Canadian or British type keyboards because they changed the location of the Backslash (\) key and messed with the Enter key.

As a touch-typist, the keyboard is extremely to me, and I too hate British keyboards. But I consider keyboard layout and the size/shape of individual keys to be part of the design, not quality. To me, "quality" refers to material, fit and finish, durability, sturdiness, screen quality (contrast, color, viewing angles), keyboard action, etc.

I think the "Edge" series of ThinkPads is the only really affordable line, but the others have remained very expensive. I guess it depends where you shop.

Yes it does depend. In the States, Thinkpads have become very cheap, and I am not just referring to the Edge Thinkpads.

[thinkmad1978]

Somehow this has never happened to me, and I have owned dozens of laptops with touchpads.

I made a separate thread for that discussion. I'm interested to know what people think.

As a touch-typist, the keyboard is extremely to me, and I too hate British keyboards. But I consider keyboard layout and the size/shape of individual keys to be part of the design, not quality. To me, "quality" refers to material, fit and finish, durability, sturdiness, screen quality (contrast, color, viewing angles), keyboard action, etc.

Agreed.

Yes it does depend. In the States, Thinkpads have become very cheap, and I am not just referring to the Edge Thinkpads.

Do you know the last ThinkPad model to not have a chiclet keyboard?

[Ibthink]

It's a shame though. I don't understand how a company can take over a winning product and run it into the ground. IBM already did the heavy lifting for them. All Lenovo had to do was keep putting new processors in there and it was a cash cow for life.

Ehhmm...no. IBM actually made never much money with ThinkPads. Instead, IBM made debts, and Lenovo had to take over these debts when the took over the IBM PCD. Lenovo actually managed to make the ThinkPad-brand into a cash-cow in the last years, something that IBM failed to do, because they didn´t want to change some things.

they finally started to mess with their meal ticket when they touched the keyboard

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I use the new keyboard every day and it is one of the two best keyboards you can find an a notebook, on par with the old keyboard IMHO. Sure, the layout change will force some users who are addicted with the old layout to get used to some things, but since I am not addicted with any layout, thats not a problem for me. The typing feeling is just amazing (I also own and owned several older ThinkPads, and I also use a Unicomp EnduraPro, so think I can compare them very well).

[jdk]

I never troll, I just tell it like it is. I hope Lenovo has staff that are paid to follow internet forums like these. It's free feedback and an opportunity for them to improve their product. A lot of failing companies don't even get that much.

There are Lenovo employees that browse this forum, but like all internet forums dedicated to a specific product, we offer a unique perspective that the target market does not have. Unfortunately, we have a different set of requirements, a different set of expectations that are not in line with what will make money, and money is what keeps these companies afloat. Also, unfortunately for us, we are "fans" of a product, so we are more likely to remain loyal to the brand despite our gripes about changes. In other words, Lenovo is making plenty of money without the 4:3 IPS screens and classic keyboards that we want.

If the people that frequent web forums about a product ran things, Pontiac would still be an auto manufacturer, Lincoln would still produce sporty rear-wheel drive V8 cars, and every Metallica album would sound like Master of Puppets. None of these scenarios are profitable.

I'm taking a look at the Dell website right now.

If you are serious about build quality and have the money, look exclusively at their business line of products. You might also check out Samsung, HP Elitebook, and BOXX Technologies for mobile workstations.

[omnivertex]

The people you described are Lenovo's target demographic now, not enterprise business users. Lenovo lost the enterprise years ago and they lost many other customers over the T4x line failures. The last four refresh projects I worked with went this way: Toughbook (2007), Latitude D6x0 series (2008), Latitude E6x00 series (2011), and Elitebook (2012). The smallest of these deployments was 15,000 machines. Even NASA is running Elitebooks now. Lenovo does not come up in conversation at all, except the one time I threw the name out during a meeting and got shot down because of the reliability issues that plagued them in the mid 2000's.

I'm interested to know what is the cause of the thinkpad failures years ago. May you shed a bit about this?

[Puppy]

Lenovo wants to be the Acer of 2000's. Targeting the consumer segment and leaving the professional one. Every new model confirms that.

[pianowizard]

If you are serious about build quality and have the money, look exclusively at their business line of products.

Let me elaborate on that. Dell's site no longer has a "Dell Business" section. Instead, it now lists computers "for home" and computers "for work", and the "for work" laptops include not only the business-class Latitude and Precision lines, but also the consumer-grade Inspiron and XPS lines. The Precision laptops are Dell's very best business-class laptops, although they are quite heavy. Among the Latitudes, the E6*** models are supposed to be better than the rest. Some XPS laptops are decent, but most Inspirons should be avoided.

I'm interested to know what is the cause of the thinkpad failures years ago. May you shed a bit about this?

The graphics chip detached from the motherboard easily. IBM lost millions of dollars repairing these defects.

[thinkmad1978]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. I use the new keyboard every day and it is one of the two best keyboards you can find an a notebook, on par with the old keyboard IMHO. Sure, the layout change will force some users who are addicted with the old layout to get used to some things, but since I am not addicted with any layout, thats not a problem for me. The typing feeling is just amazing (I also own and owned several older ThinkPads, and I also use a Unicomp EnduraPro, so think I can compare them very well).

What is the motivation behind the chiclet keyboard? Is this an Apple led initiative designed to make the world's thinnest computer?

When is the "Star Trek" keyboard coming out? (ie: microwave style buttons that sit flush with the surface of the computer.) Will that be the future of typing on laptops? Actually, we already know the answer to that: tablet PCs, and they're here already. Oh goodie. (I'm just frustrated with the industry as a whole.)

To me, laptop computers are thin enough and light enough. I care more about usability than I do aesthetics. I don't care if one computer is 0.2lbs lighter or 0.2 inches thinner than another. Women carry 5lbs of makeup in their purse. Lenovo can't tell me that an adult isn't capable of carrying a 5lb laptop.

[bill bolton]

Lenovo can't tell me that an adult isn't capable of carrying a 5lb laptop.

Lenovo, and its competitors, build what the market will buy - and there's just not much of a market for 5lb mobile devices nowadays, whether you like it or not

[Puppy]

Lenovo, and its competitors, build what the market will buy - and there's just not much of a market for 5lb mobile devices nowadays, whether you like it or not

Most of cheapest 15" IdeaPads (and similar models made by almost every brand) that sells well are over 2.6 kg (5.7 lb)

[thinkmad1978]

Lenovo, and its competitors, build what the market will buy - and there's just not much of a market for 5lb mobile devices nowadays, whether you like it or not

Well at some point the devices will become too thin, too light, and too small to be useful for anything. When that happens, the world will return to computing products that don't give people carpal tunnel syndrome or eye fatigue to use.



When I look for a laptop computer, I won't buy anything with less than a 15 inch display. I would prefer 17 inch. I've used systems with smaller screens in the past. I had an old ThinkPad with a 12 inch display one time. Why does size matter? My desktop computer monitor is a 22 inch display... easily double the size of a typical laptop display. The difference is incredible. I can be twice as productive with a 22 inch display. The smaller the screen, the more useless and limited the device.

[ZaZ]

Well at some point the devices will become too thin, too light, and too small to be useful for anything. When that happens, the world will return to computing products that don't give people carpal tunnel syndrome or eye fatigue to use.

This is why I like my X220i.

I don't think the average notebook is 11".

[pianowizard]

Lenovo, and its competitors, build what the market will buy - and there's just not much of a market for 5lb mobile devices nowadays, whether you like it or not

Perhaps the market is different in Australia but here in North America, 15-inchers weighing 5 to 6 lbs are the most common, not necessarily because people love them but probably mainly because the cheapest laptops tend to be of this size and weight. Lenovo makes lots of laptops in this category.

When I look for a laptop computer, I won't buy anything with less than a 15 inch display. I would prefer 17 inch. I've used systems with smaller screens in the past. I had an old ThinkPad with a 12 inch display one time. Why does size matter? My desktop computer monitor is a 22 inch display... easily double the size of a typical laptop display. The difference is incredible. I can be twice as productive with a 22 inch display. The smaller the screen, the more useless and limited the device.

I agree I am a lot more productive on my 17" 1920x1200 Gateway than on my 11.1" 1366x768 Sony. But I would never travel with the former, which weighs nearly 8 lbs. While on the road, compromises need to be made. Currently, the best balance between mobility and productivity is Sony's Pro 13 which just came out last week: 13.3" 1920x1080 touchscreen, 2.34 lbs, carbon fiber. The FHD resolution gives a reasonable amount of real estate. It's actually still very low for me, since I am used to having 18 megapixels on my main desktop computer, but 2 MP is okay on a laptop. The touchscreen allows me to switch to touching the screen when excessive typing starts to hurt my hands. The light weight makes the laptop easy to carry around -- when I attend conferences, I don't just leave my laptop at the hotel but need to walk around with the laptop 5 full days in a row. And carbon fiber is quite strong, allowing the laptop to be thin without getting too flimsy.

[automobus]

My desktop computer monitor is a 22 inch display... easily double the size of a typical laptop display.

I don't think the average notebook is 11".

22² ÷ 15.4² ≈ 2 (2.04)
22² ÷ 15.6² ≈ 2 (1.99)

[pianowizard]

22² ÷ 15.4² ≈ 2 (2.04)
22² ÷ 15.6² ≈ 2 (1.99)

Wow, you are observant! I was wondering why ZaZ suddenly said 11", because he didn't quote the statement "My desktop computer monitor is a 22 inch display... easily double the size of a typical laptop display". BTW, a 22" screen is exactly four times the area of an 11" screen: (22/11)² = 4

However, you can use this ratio calculation only if you are comparing two screens with the same aspect ratio. 22.0" and 15.4" screens are both 16:10, whereas 15.6" screens are 16:9. 22.0" monitors are no longer made, and today's so-called 22-inch monitors are actually 21.5". So, the area ratio of 21.5" to 15.6" is: (21.5/15.6)² = 1.90

[ZaZ]

Actually, I should have said 10.5" or 10.6", which is a more common notebook/netbook size. The poster said size, which I think most people would take as the diagonal size of the screen, not the surface area of the screen.

[omnivertex]

That sony vaio pro 13 looks nice but I can't stand the keyboard. I don't like the idea that I had to press FN to access HOME, END, PGUP, and PGDN key (same reason why I avoid zenbook). It seems many manufacturers are starting to take this route of design for their keyboard. Thank god, thinkpad is still not and hopefully never.

[pianowizard]

That sony vaio pro 13 looks nice but I can't stand the keyboard. I don't like the idea that I had to press FN to access HOME, END, PGUP, and PGDN key (same reason why I avoid zenbook). It seems many manufacturers are starting to take this route of design for their keyboard. Thank god, thinkpad is still not and hopefully never.

I know of at least one series of Thinkpads that took this route: the 240, 240X, 240Z, and i Series 1124.

The poster said size, which I think most people would take as the diagonal size of the screen, not the surface area of the screen.

Wow, are you a lawyer?

[ThinkPad560X]

I didnt know there starting to opt out the TrackPoint, And thats a ThinkPad Icon. I still use mine all the time and is the only option on my X41 im on right now. Even when the TouchPad first came on the ThinkPad T30 I still used the trackPoint. And Im not sure how the island keys would feel on the New ThinkPads, A BestBuy around me had 2 ThinkPads in the laptop area and then that was it for a month and never saw a ThinkPad again there. I think they were a X220 and T420, had the textured touchpad, But really wouldnt know since I Stayed with my original IBM ThinkPads. Had a Lenovo ThinkPad SL500 for a year or 2 to try a Lenovo made ThinkPad and sold it, the palmrest started to crack around the touchpad and was loose where it should of had screws to make it tight by the spacebar. I never see ThinkPads sell in stores anywhere other then HP, DELL, Gateway ect, mainly tablets now I see to. But I think sometime down the road Lenovo may opt out the trackpoint on all ThinkPads and focus on touchpad and touchscreen. I even hated trying to fix someone laptop that didnt have a trackpoint.

[lophiomys]

I dont really believe that Lenovo would make money with what is called Thinkpad today,
because in my entourage I am the last who has one, an old one. I observe Apple MacBook Pros,
Asus Zenbooks, HP Elitebooks and Sony being used. Lenovo obviously lost customers in the premium sector.
As JDK stated above, Thinkpads are not even a topic any more.

Lenovo do not only constantly remove classic features of Thinkpads,
e.g. the trusted keyboard layout, there are also serious issues with reliability and customer service.

[Puppy]

Lenovo do not only constantly remove classic features of Thinkpads,
e.g. the trusted keyboard layout, there are also serious issues with reliability and customer service.

But they make profit by that

[lophiomys]

That is what I am not sure of.
As far as I do unstand from the general news, Lenovo is making money overall,
but about the Thinkpad sub-division I am not sure at all.