T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems (SOLVED!)

Windows 10 on Lenovo hardware
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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#31 Post by Muse » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:15 pm

thinkpadcollection wrote:For your T61 with W10-64, get another set of memory sticks like micron, hynix, elpida 4GB 2x 2GB set and see what happens.

Cheers, thinkpadcollection
At the moment in the machine is ELPIDA 8GB (2x4GB) PC2 6400S Laptop DDR2 MEMORY RAM. I ran Memtest+ on it a few weeks ago, over 10 passes IIRC with no errors.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#32 Post by TPFanatic » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:04 pm

Windows 10 should have an "Event Viewer," if you can find and put the BSOD's log into it you may be able to pinpoint where the crash is.


For your T60 and Intel 6205:
T60 does have a wifi card whitelist normally. If you flash Zender's T60 BIOS that should remove the whitelist and let you use the Intel 6205. I doubt Windows will find its driver automatically.
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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#33 Post by kfzhu1229 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:25 pm

Also make sure you are using the best version of the drivers available (And of course, 64 bit drivers only)
Patience, boys. All good things to those who wait. – Mother Gothel (Tangled)
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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#34 Post by Muse » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:41 pm

TPFanatic wrote:Windows 10 should have an "Event Viewer," if you can find and put the BSOD's log into it you may be able to pinpoint where the crash is.


For your T60 and Intel 6205:
T60 does have a wifi card whitelist normally. If you flash Zender's T60 BIOS that should remove the whitelist and let you use the Intel 6205. I doubt Windows will find its driver automatically.
Yeah, I'll check the event viewer, don't know why I didn't think of that. It may show something that's a clue to what's causing the crashes, is that what you mean?

Where can I get Zender's T60 BIOS? The post above's link puts me in a German forum. My German is very rusty! Schrecklich!
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#35 Post by TPFanatic » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:57 pm

I have no idea, sorry. Possibly an admin on this forum can host a copy of it for you. The T60/p bioses differ between the standard and wide screen models. With how hard it is to find Bioses for these machines now, I'm lucky my second-hand X60s already has a modded bios flashed on it by the previous owner...


That your T61 still crashes in Win10 with the wireless card removed suggests that the problem is with some other component. I still suspect a driver incompatibility as being most likely, especially on a laptop of the T61 era. You've already determined the RAM to be good. Did you do a free upgrade over Windows 7? You can also try Win10's "Reset PC" option that lets Windows 10 reinstall itself.


Also try reinstalling graphics or ethernet drivers.


Pre-Ivy Bridge chipsets are barely supported by Metro Windows at all anyway. It's a Vista-era machine, so Vista and 7 are the right OSes for it. My experience with 10 on old hardware, and on hard drives in general, has been so sucky that I recommend you go for 7 and enjoy that. 7 is less bloated, less cloud-based, lets you control updates, isn't obnoxious or unintelligent (Microsoft doesn't want you to know there are verbose status messages in 10), and doesn't treat the user like an incompetent technophobe. I could use a computer better at age 5 than Windows 10 expects a competent adult to know how to fix broken stuff.
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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#36 Post by 4uk4a » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:32 pm

Muse wrote:

Where can I get Zender's T60 BIOS? The post above's link puts me in a German forum. My German is very rusty! Schrecklich!
I'm sorry that it happened.
direct link: https://www.sendspace.com/file/fn02af

This bios T60(p) 4:3 screen only.

You need to flash 2.27 bios.
Check the "Drivers" link at the top of each page.

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#37 Post by Muse » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:58 am

TPFanatic:

Thanks for the ideas.

Now, the machine crashes occasionally, yes, but it is not true that the wireless card is removed. Still in it is an Intel 4965 AGN. I have a new Intel Ultimate-N 6300 633ANHMW WiFi Wireless Card that I ordered from China, but haven't installed it yet. Maybe installing it will eliminate the crashes, but it seems like a long shot. Guess I should give it a try.

Yes, I did do a free upgrade to Windows 10 64bit from Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit.

I assume that if I do the Reset PC option in Windows 10, that it will be similar to a complete reinstall. Or does it leave my apps in place (big difference!)?

I wholeheartedly agree with your disgust for Windows trending to an OS that assumes that its user has almost no awareness of what's going on. It's maddening. I've been using Windows since the 3.1 days. I know that a lot of the tools that have existed over the years are still there but they've made it not obvious that they are there.

I used to use DOS a lot, have even used Windows-less Microsoft machines (DOS 5 and 6). I don't like the nutty hand-holding that Microsoft has gone to... it never used to be like that. I never use their data management system. They tuck your data on the OS drive (under Documents and Settings), and that's never seemed to me a good idea. I mean, what happens if your OS partition gets messed up? What if you have to reinstall Windows? I have my own data management systems and that data is never stored on an OS partition. If it's really important to me, it's on my RAID1 network access server.

My T60 running Windows 10 32bit seems to be doing well enough, so that gives me hope that this T61 can handle Windows 10 64bit. I could even run Windows 10 32bit on it, and maybe will try that if I can't stop the BSODs. The one advantage to running 64bit is the utilization of 8GB of RAM on this machine, so I'll keep trying to get Windows 10 64bit to run without crashing.

A kind and smart member here has linked me to the Zender BIOS's, a page that states that it should not be linked to publicly. However, it appears that it's a 2.25 version of the T60 BIOS. Implementing it looks to be potentially complicated, so I haven't proceeded to download and flash. There's no hurry on that, the machine is working, I can flash and install the Intel 6205 later.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#38 Post by Muse » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:12 pm

4uk4a wrote:
Muse wrote:

Where can I get Zender's T60 BIOS? The post above's link puts me in a German forum. My German is very rusty! Schrecklich!
I'm sorry that it happened.
direct link: https://www.sendspace.com/file/fn02af

This bios T60(p) 4:3 screen only.

You need to flash 2.27 bios.
Check the "Drivers" link at the top of each page.
I downloaded this file:

Lenovo T60_79uj34us_SLIC21_no_whitelist.iso

That seems like a fine name for what I'm doing. But when I went to copy the file to a subfolder on my network access server I got a message being Windows saying "These files might be harmful to your computer." Presumably Windows Defender is seeing something amiss there!
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#39 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:36 pm

Malwarebytes (which I trust a LOT more than any Windows program) has no problems with it.

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#40 Post by 4uk4a » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:21 pm

Muse wrote: I downloaded this file:

Lenovo T60_79uj34us_SLIC21_no_whitelist.iso

That seems like a fine name for what I'm doing. But when I went to copy the file to a subfolder on my network access server I got a message being Windows saying "These files might be harmful to your computer." Presumably Windows Defender is seeing something amiss there!

https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/4c8e ... 490987615/
:thumbs-UP:

P.S. This is a known reaction to the BIOS flasher
This iso file does not have a digital signature lenovo.

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#41 Post by Muse » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:12 pm

4uk4a wrote:
Muse wrote: I downloaded this file:

Lenovo T60_79uj34us_SLIC21_no_whitelist.iso

That seems like a fine name for what I'm doing. But when I went to copy the file to a subfolder on my network access server I got a message being Windows saying "These files might be harmful to your computer." Presumably Windows Defender is seeing something amiss there!

https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/4c8e ... 490987615/
:thumbs-UP:

P.S. This is a known reaction to the BIOS flasher
This iso file does not have a digital signature lenovo.
Thanks... you guys are aces!

I burned the image file to one of my ancient CDRW disks (with Verify enabled). I was examining the result, glanced at the F.Bat file and was reading Readme.txt and this T61 BSODed! In rebooting I got my answer to the question of whether the CDRW would be bootable! I was offered to flash the BIOS! Being on my T61 and not the 1953CTO T60 for which I wanted the Zender BIOS, of course I removed the disk and booted to Windows. Not sure what I'm going to do first to troubleshoot the T61's BSODs. I think I'll try installing the Intel 6300 wifi card. The Middleton BIOS is already installed, I think it should work. I presume Windows will find the needed driver.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#42 Post by Muse » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:59 pm

Just removed the old 4965 AGN wifi card from this T61 and installed the 6300 AGN Ultimate. Connected to my network on the 5GHz band. Will see if my BSOD's are resolved, but I won't be confident unless I go 3 months without one. Even a week or two would be reason to be optimistic.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#43 Post by 4uk4a » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:27 pm

'All's well that ends well'

I got BSOD on T60 (XPx32), T61 (Win7x64, Win10x64) because of different memory sticks - one 8 chips, the second 16 chips. A memory dump was not created. The sticks were checked memtest, - no problems. But, the computer did not reboot - the fan is running, the screen is black or blue (automatic restart is disabled). There are no entries in the Event Viewer.
Did you run BlueScreenView? What error?
Windows10 can not be trusted. - I upgraded my T601f to W10 and got problems,
Later rolled back to W7 and the problems became more. Now when I restart I get a blue screen periodically.
:(

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#44 Post by Muse » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:41 am

4uk4a wrote:
Muse wrote:

Where can I get Zender's T60 BIOS? The post above's link puts me in a German forum. My German is very rusty! Schrecklich!
I'm sorry that it happened.
direct link: https://www.sendspace.com/file/fn02af

This bios T60(p) 4:3 screen only.

You need to flash 2.27 bios.
Check the "Drivers" link at the top of each page.
What does this refer to? I don't see a "Drivers" link. Are you suggesting that after flashing the Zender BIOS I need to update some drivers? :?:

I haven't flashed the BIOS yet, but my impression is that it will be very easy to do it. Anyway, I'd like to clear up the confusion concerning "drivers" before doing the flash.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#45 Post by 4uk4a » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:42 pm

Muse wrote: This T60's current BIOS is this: LENOVO 79ETE6WW (2.26 ) 04/01/2010
Your steps:
1) reset BIOS settings by default
2) flash the original BIOS version 2.27
link: https://thinkpads.com/support/Thinkpad- ... m/T60.html

3) reset BIOS settings by default
4) flash modified bios
5) reset BIOS settings by default

:banana:

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#46 Post by Muse » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:16 am

4uk4a wrote:
Muse wrote: This T60's current BIOS is this: LENOVO 79ETE6WW (2.26 ) 04/01/2010
Your steps:
1) reset BIOS settings by default
2) flash the original BIOS version 2.27
link: https://thinkpads.com/support/Thinkpad- ... m/T60.html

3) reset BIOS settings by default
4) flash modified bios
5) reset BIOS settings by default

:banana:
This is (?) "fail safe defaults" or Optimized Defaults? What is the reason for doing this? Also why flash the original 2.27 BIOS before flashing the modified version? I'm not arguing, I'm just curious concerning the methodology.

Thanks for the help/information. :thumbs-UP:
Last edited by Muse on Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#47 Post by 4uk4a » Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:00 pm

Muse wrote: This is (?) "fail safe defaults" or similar? What is the reason for doing this, also why flash the original 2.27 BIOS before flashing the modified version? I'm not arguing, I'm just curious concerning the methodology.
This is the "License Agreement" with those who modified the BIOS.
If you flash another version of the BIOS, you can get a brick instead of a laptop, :help:
since some addresses in the BIOS may not coincide.
This is the structure of the bios:
http://imgur.com/a/JVQ4C
This is what modded:
http://imgur.com/a/DnLzS

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#48 Post by pidjones » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:45 am

BSODs appeared on my T61 (with Middleton) after installing the 4965AGN and turning n on. Turning it off seems to stop the BSODs, but it also cuts my SPEEDTEST score by almost half.

Sent from my Le Pan TC802A using Tapatalk

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#49 Post by Muse » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:44 pm

pidjones wrote:BSODs appeared on my T61 (with Middleton) after installing the 4965AGN and turning n on. Turning it off seems to stop the BSODs, but it also cuts my SPEEDTEST score by almost half.

Sent from my Le Pan TC802A using Tapatalk
Interesting. My T61 had the same Wifi card in it until about a week ago. Was OK running Win7 64bit, but after doing the free upgrade to Win10 64bit I was getting sporadic BSODs. I swapped out the Wifi card last week for the Intel Ultimate-N 6300 633ANHMW. Haven't had a BSOD yet... I'm knocking on wood. I'm not seeing significant speed test differences between the two cards, but with my DSL I seem to be limited to around 4.1 Mbps these days.
Last edited by Muse on Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#50 Post by Muse » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:17 pm

Muse wrote:Just removed the old 4965 AGN wifi card from this T61 and installed the 6300 AGN Ultimate. Connected to my network on the 5GHz band. Will see if my BSOD's are resolved, but I won't be confident unless I go 3 months without one. Even a week or two would be reason to be optimistic.
It has been 13 days since I removed the 4965 AGN card and installed the 6300 AGN Ultimate. So far so good... no BSODs :wink:
I was getting BSODs on average every 6 days during March. Seems possible that replacing the wifi card has eliminated the lockups.

Also, my network connectivity coming out of suspend for this T61 has been really good since changing the wifi card. Takes just a few seconds, nothing problematical.

Haven't flashed the Zender BIOS to my 1953CTO T60 yet, figure to do that within the coming days.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: RE: Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#51 Post by pidjones » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:35 am

Muse wrote:
Muse wrote:Just removed the old 4965 AGN wifi card from this T61 and installed the 6300 AGN Ultimate. Connected to my network on the 5GHz band. Will see if my BSOD's are resolved, but I won't be confident unless I go 3 months without one. Even a week or two would be reason to be optimistic.
It has been 13 days since I removed the 4965 AGN card and installed the 6300 AGN Ultimate. So far so good... no BSODs :wink:
I was getting BSODs on average every 6 days during March. Seems possible that replacing the wifi card has eliminated the lockups.

Also, my network connectivity coming out of suspend for this T61 has been really good since changing the wifi card. Takes just a few seconds, nothing problematical.

Haven't flashed the Zender BIOS to my 1953CTO T60 yet, figure to do that within the coming days.
Replaced the 4965 AGN with a 6300 ultimate last night. Speed much better, and so far no BSOD.

Sent from my Le Pan TC802A using Tapatalk

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Re: RE: Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#52 Post by Muse » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:22 am

pidjones wrote: Replaced the 4965 AGN with a 6300 ultimate last night. Speed much better, and so far no BSOD.

Sent from my Le Pan TC802A using Tapatalk
Now 21 days since I made the same replacement. Still no BSOD in the T61 running Win10 64bit! I'm not sure if I'm out of the woods on the occasional (sometimes frequent) BSOD issue(s), but I have good reason to be optimistic.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#53 Post by Muse » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:50 am

Muse wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:59 pm
Just removed the old 4965 AGN wifi card from this T61 and installed the 6300 AGN Ultimate. Connected to my network on the 5GHz band. Will see if my BSOD's are resolved, but I won't be confident unless I go 3 months without one. Even a week or two would be reason to be optimistic.
It's been over two months and after installing the 6300 AGN Ultimate wifi card there have been no BSODs! I'm pretty sure that swapping out the wifi card has fixed the problem. The T61 Lenovo product ID 6465CTO machine is still running Windows 10 Ultimate.
- - - -
On another note, I'm tired of having to wait 10 seconds or more after wakening my T60 1953CTO machine for the wifi card to reach my network. So, I'm going to attempt to remove the original wifi card (ThinkPad 11a/b/g Wi-Fi wireless LAN Mini-PCIe) and install my Intel Centrino Advanced-N 6205 WLAN 802.11A/B/G/N Wireless Card today in the machine. Prior to doing that I am installing 2.27 BIOS (it's got 2.26 now), then a modified 2.27 BIOS that removes the whitelist per instructions in this thread.

Edit: I got the 6205 card installed after updating the BIOS to no-whitelist SLIC 2.1 2.27. Maybe working OK, don't know. Took me ~20 minutes just to get my favorite data access application seeing the data.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#54 Post by Muse » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:48 pm

My experiment today installing an Intel Centrino Advanced-N 6205 WLAN 802.11A/B/G/N Wireless Card in my 1953CTO T60 was a success. I installed it because I was experiencing 10-15 second delays before wifi was working when taking the machine out of suspend. After swapping out the original 4965 AGN wifi card for the Intel 6205 1/2 size card today, when I take the machine out of suspend there is zero delay. It's as if the card never lost it's connection. I figure this could have something to do with the configuration of the card, I don't know. However, IIRC, someone said that the driver for the 6205 card was simply a better driver.

So, installing this card today solved my frustrating and annoying delays on that T60 and installing the Intel Ultimate-N 6300 633ANHMW WiFi Wireless Card in my T61 apparently resolved the frequent BSOD's I was getting with that machine. Both machines run Windows 10.
"If a star were a grain of salt, you could fit all the stars visible to the naked eye on a teaspoon, but all the stars in the universe would fill a ball eight miles wide." - A Briefer History of Time, Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow

Dec. 2010: Now thought to be over 11 miles wide!

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Re: RE: Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#55 Post by ArtShapiro » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:16 am

Muse wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:22 am
Now 21 days since I made the same replacement. Still no BSOD in the T61 running Win10 64bit
I've been suffering the same problem on a T61 with dumps coming out of the 4965 networking software. So after reading this thread and your positive experience, I went looking for an Ultimate 6300AGN card on eBay.

To my surprise, various auctions seem to link the miniPCI card to specific hardware. Some say "do not use on Thinkpads" or words to that effect. Others specifically cite much later TP models such as the 420 and 520.

I'm curious what you actually ended up purchasing.

Art

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#56 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:53 am

The "do not use" shows that those eBay sellers have never heard of Middleton (or any other BIOS-modders).
Unfortunately from T430/T530 onwards the UEFI BIOS has become almost impossible to remove a whitelist from.

On your T61, install Middleton's BIOS, then throw in any wifi card that you like.
Personally I would go for the Atheros AR9380/AR5BXB112 which is 50% faster (450mbps) than the Intel 6300N (300mbps).
Even if you only have 2 antenna wires it's WAY better!
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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#57 Post by ArtShapiro » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:17 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:53 am
On your T61, install Middleton's BIOS, then throw in any wifi card that you like.
My initial search engine enquiry only shows the Middleton BIOS for 14" T61 machines. This happens to be a 15.4" widescreen. Am I missing an obvious BIOS source for this widescreen guy?

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#58 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:25 am

Read the description again, notice the missing comma and space in T61, T61pR61 ?

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#59 Post by ArtShapiro » Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:52 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:25 am
Read the description again, notice the missing comma and space in T61, T61pR61 ?
I do, but again only for 14" machines. This is out of the ThinkWiki site. Am I missing something obvious?!

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Re: T61 running W10 64bit -- Two problems

#60 Post by RealBlackStuff » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:03 am

Geez, wake up, people! :roll:
Thinkwiki wrote:T61, T61p, R61 (14.1" widescreen with IEEE 1394): 7732, 7733, 7734, 7735, 7738, 7742, etc.
T61 is one group, meaning ALL T61.
T61p is one group, meaning ALL T61p.
R61 (14.1" blabla..) is also one group, meaning ALL R61 with 14.1" wide...

And so on, and on, and on...

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