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X1C3 display flashes???

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pgoelz
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X1C3 display flashes???

#1 Post by pgoelz » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:12 pm

Anyone had this happen? Today while running on battery, my display started flashing wildly..... on and off, as well and moving sideways. Moving the mouse could stop it while the mouse was in motion.... sometimes. Freaked me out!

I reinstalled the display adapter driver and reset the BIOS to defaults, and it stopped (so far). But I am wondering if this maybe ultimately has something to do with the Intel power save aggressiveness feature. It is set to 0% on AC power and 100% on battery. I've had the machine for a week and it has been on AC for 99% of that time.....

OOPS, just as I was about to send this it flashed once. I think I'll set the power save aggressiveness to 0% and see what happens.

Freaked in Michigan,
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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#2 Post by pgoelz » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:01 pm

OK, set the Intel power save aggressiveness to OFF while on battery and along with the other things I reported above, it has not flashed again. Given the fact that moving the mouse would sometimes stop the flashing, this seems like a driver or at least software issue as opposed to hardware?

For good measure, I went through and installed the obvious choices (chipset, monitor, display adapter and power management drivers) from the Lenovo site in spite of the fact that System Update said I was up to date.

Lets see what happens. My money is on the Intel power save setting.... the flashing and sideways image movement looked like it was having trouble changing modes.

Oh, and I forget to mention that while it was at its worst, I booted into Linux Mint with no flashing.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#3 Post by pgoelz » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:25 pm

And another update... I spoke with Lenovo today. We checked some drivers are settings and he said his troubleshooting matrix said to replace the LCD and cable. He wasn't at all sure this would fix it and I agreed. We both felt it was a software issue. He asked me to do a diagnostic (from BIOS) and it passed all tests. Turns out this used machine has a year's worth of warranty left, with my choice of in home or depot, so I am not worried it will get fixed..... eventually. But I am worried it may be a while before it gets figured out.

In the mean time, it did it again here at home on battery power. Like last time, it stopped as soon as I plugged it in and did not start flashing again when I unplugged it.

After I did the diagnostics I took a closer look in the BIOS and found that there are some power settings in there, so I set "maximum performance" for battery operation, same as on AC power. We'll see if THAT stops it.

I also deleted the MONITOR folder in DRIVERS, uninstalled the monitor driver and let Windows install the default monitor ("Generic PnP monitor). I was never sure I had the correct monitor inf loaded after I downloaded them from Lenovo.... the driver download from the Lenovo site actually installs quite a few "inf" files and it was not at all clear from their filenames which was the correct one. Since this flashing only started a day or two after I used the Lenovo "inf" file(s), I thought maybe I should revert to what seemed to work.

In the mean time, I Googled and found one other reported instance that sounds like it is the same. He reported that he tried disabling the Intel power management on battery power (from the Windows power options) because someone said that fixed it. But he said it did not fix it for him. The thread petered out at that point (of course).

I'll be running on battery all evening... lets see if it does it again after the BIOS and monitor changes. I hate trying to prove a negative....

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#4 Post by pgoelz » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:41 am

And I'm back the next morning to report that the screen was solid all evening on battery and again this morning. Still too early to declare victory, but things are looking up at least. Interestingly, with everything set for maximum performance on battery, the CPU speed ramps up and down on battery same as on AC power. But I honestly didn't notice any significant decrease in battery life cruising the internet and checking Email. Typing this on this web site is using 10% CPU and Windows is predicting 7 hours remaining after a nearly full charge. If that is not a normal drain, it is certainly good enough for me ;)

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#5 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:51 am

Can I assume you are talking about the obnoXious Windows X?
In that case I am not surprised at yet another idiosyncrasy.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#6 Post by pgoelz » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:33 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:Can I assume you are talking about the obnoXious Windows X?
In that case I am not surprised at yet another idiosyncrasy.
Not sure what you mean by "Windows X". Yes, this is Windows 10, Creators Update.

However, after refining my search terms, I have found several threads describing the exact symptoms (one with a video) going back several years. Unfortunately, none seemed to settle on an actual solution. Lenovo replaced the LCD and cable on several occasions and it did not resolve it. I wonder what their end game is in those cases..... the machine is utterly un-usable when the flashing is happening. A couple people returned them for refund, but that is probably not an option here since I purchased the machine used, but with a year left on the warranty.

Note that after I made the changes detailed above, the issue has so far NOT recurred. I still strongly suspect an incompatibility between the display driver / LCD and the power management. And I'm not sure I can blame that entirely on Windows.

Even though I have come to an uneasy truce with Windows 10, it might be interesting to install Windows 7 on it, but I'm not sure all the required drivers are available for Windows 7?

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#7 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:47 am

I'm sure you (and nearly every other Windows user) have been pestered before by shady Micro$haft's GWX programs.
GWX = Get Windows X, where X stands for the Roman numeral 10

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#8 Post by pgoelz » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:15 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:I'm sure you (and nearly every other Windows user) have been pestered before by shady Micro$haft's GWX programs.
GWX = Get Windows X, where X stands for the Roman numeral 10
Not for a while. I jumped on the Windows 10 bandwagon during the initial insider phase and was ready to upgrade when it rolled out to the public. I'm still mostly OK with it, although I despise the way they messed up the Windows Update routine. I had my machines set to notify before downloading updates by using the Group Policy editor but doing that meant it then pestered me several times a day for virus signature updates so I reluctantly went back to full automatic. I do have some concerns about data consumption, though. It shows I have consumed 105GB since I installed Windows a week ago, with about 75GB of that consumed by "system". That seems excessive, and represents almost 50% of our normal 200GB-250GB household consumption for four W10 machines and Tivo (Netflix) streaming. Keeping an eye on that one.

BTW, why is this forum so sleepy? I would have expected more traffic given the fact the X1 series is MUCH more current than my venerable X61s.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#9 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:45 am

This forum is not sleepy, but I think the majority of Forum members prefers the Classic Thinkpads (up to and including T420/T520/W520/X220) over the Post-Classic stuff.
Just looking at the number of posts in Classic and Post-Classic forums should clarify that.

Most of the Post-Classic stuff is consumer-orientated, whereas the Classic stuff was mostly business-orientated.
Lenovo has turned into a greedy bunch of bean-counters and less-qualified mass-producers.
They don't give a hoot about what users want, they just try to imitate FRUIT, which they do rather poorly and for no good reasons!

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#10 Post by w0qj » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:32 am

X1C3 fully supports Win10.
One of our X1C3 had Win10 installed, and had no such display flash problem.
(We also have X250 installed with Win10 to test out the waters).

However, most of our machines have Win7 64-bit installed by design.
(Sorry to sound like a broken record!)

Surely almost everyone had heard of the occasional Win10 update problems after forced Windows Update...
We simply didn't want to spend (waste) our time dealing with this, when our Win7 is working perfectly for us...
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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#11 Post by pgoelz » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:06 am

w0qj wrote:X1C3 fully supports Win10.
One of our X1C3 had Win10 installed, and had no such display flash problem.
(We also have X250 installed with Win10 to test out the waters).

However, most of our machines have Win7 64-bit installed by design.
(Sorry to sound like a broken record!)

Surely almost everyone had heard of the occasional Win10 update problems after forced Windows Update...
We simply didn't want to spend (waste) our time dealing with this, when our Win7 is working perfectly for us...
Are there any issues installing Windows 7 on the X1C3? Like SSD, WLAN, Trackpoint, HD5500 etc? On my X61s, driver support for later WLAN cards that resumed from standby was very sketchy.

I'd really like to stay on W10 but it would be an interesting experiment to drop a W7 image on it and dual boot. But I would have to be VERY careful not to corrupt the SSD with the issue of W10 not recognizing the version of NTFS form W7.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#12 Post by w0qj » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:51 am

Hi pgoelz,

X1C3 came preinstalled with Win 8.1 Pro 64-bit, but we also ordered a Win 7 Pro 64-bit downgrade rights with it.
We liked it so much that we have already upgraded to a 5-year warranty.
(Model No.: 20BS-CTO1WW).

Since our version of Win 7 Pro came with all custom programs for X1C3, everything worked properly!
~We even did numerous (Win7) Product Recovery on our X1C3, and no issues at all!
~Recognized the OEM SSD right from the start
~WLAN care resumes from standby and very quickly grabs the internet Wi-Fi connection
~TrackPoint ok
~HD5500 ok

In short, it works like a dream!

(We reluctantly upgraded to X1C4 only because of 1 TB storage and 16 GB RAM, also upgraded to 5-year warranty.)
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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#13 Post by pgoelz » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:08 pm

OK, more information. All my changes detailed above did NOT resolve the issue. Turns out that at least on my machine the flashing is stimulated by a specific set of circumstances. Doing the steps below I can often (but not always) duplicate it.

1. Close the lid and put the machine to sleep.

2. Unplug the AC adapter.

3. Turn off the local WiFi access point so the machine will not connect automatically.

4. Open the lid and attempt to connect to a WiFi access point that you CANNOT connect to. This part I am not 100% certain on.... it may be that you need to attempt to connect to an AP that has signal and connection but will not grant the internet. In my case, I used a very weak Xfinity WiFi access point in the neighborhood. These are open but will not pass data until you supply your Xfinity credentials.

5. Often the display will begin flashing wildly.

6. Plug the AC adapter back in and the flashing immediately stops and often will not start again even if you unplug again unless you go through the steps above again.

Note that the above scenario was exactly what happened the first time I saw this behavior..... I took the laptop out with me and tried to connect to Xfinity where I was. As soon as I pressed CONNECT, the flashing started.

I have NOT been able to duplicate it (so far) by simply forgetting my local access point and trying to connect to another AP with bad credentials.

I am starting to wonder if this has little or nothing to do with the graphic adapter.... the connection to WiFi makes no sense.

Next step is to see if I can identify what changes when I go from battery to AC. I have all power optimization turned off or set the same for both power cases.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#14 Post by shawross » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:43 pm

It sounds almost like a voltage regulator problem. I don't know if switching things off in bios would help.
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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#15 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:14 am

Check if Virtualization in BIOS is the culprit: https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht500006

It seems there are others with the same X1C3 problems in Linux: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=192875&p=2

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#16 Post by pgoelz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:22 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:Check if Virtualization in BIOS is the culprit: https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht500006

It seems there are others with the same X1C3 problems in Linux: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=192875&p=2
Sadly, not the issue. Virtualization was turned off so I turned it on and the problem persists.

The odd thing is that at least on this X1C3, it ONLY shows up if I do the steps I outlined above. The key is to wake up unconnected to WiFi and then attempt to connect to an AP that is either weak or does not pass data right away. That is the ONLY scenario that I have found that causes it. Once triggered, it persists until the screen eventually goes blank. Plugging in AC power stops it immediately. Moving the cursor slows the flashing and hitting the Windows key completely stops it for several seconds. So does dragging a window around. Apparently redrawing parts of the screen stops whatever is causing the flashing while the screen is redrawing. Usually a three finger salute brings up the option screen and if you then log out and back in, it does not flash.

From my research I find that this is a widespread problem on several different platforms, with the HD5500 display adapter as the common point. However, it may be that most people do not run into it because they never do the specific things that trigger it.

Lenovo wants me to reimage the machine and is sending W8.1 recovery media. I will probably do that because that is part of building a case with them for some sort of ultimate resolution. However, in the mean time while waiting for the disks I did another fresh install of windows and the problem is still there.

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I am not booting via UEFI, which also means I have not loaded OS optimized defaults since that switches to UEFI. The HD was not UEFI / GPT as received and apparently in order to install via UEFI I have to change to a GPT partition scheme. Not QUITE ready to blow my other partitions away yet. Since it has been around for a long time and affects numerous different machines, I am worried this may actually be a fault within the chipset that drivers can't fix.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#17 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:07 am

Tried this?
- Go to Device Manager/your wifi card/Properties/Power Management Tab and clear the "Allow..." checkmarks.

- Another wifi card?

- Change from wifi-N to wifi-G, see how it goes, change back to N?

Why this silly AP switching off?

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#18 Post by pgoelz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:15 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:Tried this?
- Go to Device Manager/your wifi card/Properties/Power Management Tab and clear the "Allow..." checkmarks.

- Another wifi card?

- Change from wifi-N to wifi-G, see how it goes, change back to N?

Why this silly AP switching off?
Yeah, already tried changing the WiFi card power properties. No change.

I haven't tried another card yet.... I'll have to see if the X1C3 can use one of my old cards from the X61S. Hadn't thought of changing WiFi bands and/or disabling a band.

Why this "silly AP switching AP"? If I understand the question, it is because I was trying to duplicate the "out of home on battery" conditions when I first got hit by the flashing screen. Turns out it is part of the puzzle... I don't get the flashing unless I am on battery and NOT connected to WiFi. Don't know how that relates to what otherwise seems to be a display issue just yet. Neither does anyone else from what I have found.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#19 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:57 am

Would that only be when trying to connect to Xfinity?
What about another "brand" AP?

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Re:If X1C3 display flashes???

#20 Post by pgoelz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:06 am

RealBlackStuff wrote:Would that only be when trying to connect to Xfinity?
What about another "brand" AP?
Good question, and one I do not have a definitive answer on yet. When I have tried connecting to other APs with incorrect credentials (like my neighbors), it does not seem to stimulate the flashing. When I try connecting to Xfininty, it does. The difference is (I think) that an Xfinity WiFi AP is unencrypted and the card WILL connect to the AP but will not connect to the internet until I supply my Xfinity credentials. However, I think I have had instances of flashing after successful Xfinity connection to the net.

I am still trying to develop a picture of exactly what stimulates the flashing in the hopes I can at least find a workaround. I like this machine and want to keep it, but it can be pretty useless on battery power if there is no easy way to deal with the flashing.

Do you know if the X1C3 has a hardware whitelist? If so, experimentally installing an older WiFi card isn't an option.

Can I assume that the fact that I am booting via BIOS and not UEFI is not an issue? It was BIOS / MBR as received and I left it that way. But that means I cannot use the BIOS "load OS optimized defaults" option because that flips it to UEFI. Might there be something in those optimized defaults that is only exposed or set with that option and might affect the flashing? I'm trying to figure out why this apparently affects only a subset of all the X1C (and Dell XPX13) owners. It is a real thing, but the fact that apparently not everyone is affected is puzzling.

This morning on a whim I blew away the Windows 10 installation and started over from scratch. This time I loaded the very recent WiFi card driver but did not load the chipset driver package (which System Update marked as "optional") and let Windows figure it all out. Did NOT cure the flashing. If I get bored I may blow away all the partitions, convert to GPT and reinstall in UEFI mode but I don't think that is a cure.

I did find reference to the fact that Dell released a HD5500 driver for the XPS13 that DID cure the flashing... I may try installing that one if I can find it.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#21 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:02 pm

Nearly everything Lenovo with UEFI, from T430/T530/W530/X230 onwards, has a (so far) uncrackable whitelist.
I don't have any AC wifi cards, so don't know how good/bad they are.

Have you tried Fn/F5 to switch wifi off before putting the machine into sleep/hibernation?

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#22 Post by pgoelz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:30 pm

Good idea about trying to resume with the WiFi card disabled (F8 on the X1C).
My X1C1 still has the (standard) F5 for wifi and has no flashing problems (running W7 Pro/64 and Intel 6205N wifi card).

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#23 Post by pgoelz » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:29 pm

WHOA. I MAY HAVE A FIX!!!! Again, I'm trying to prove a negative here, but after reducing the WiFi transmit power from "Highest" to "Medium", I was unable to duplicate the issue no matter how hard I tried.

I got that tip from this thread on the Dell forum.

They also mentioned disabling an attribute for 802.11d that my card does not have.

The more I researched this problem the more I started to believe I was barking up the wrong tree. It LOOKS like a display issue, but it may well be CAUSED by the WiFi card. Two possibilities... one is the card is borking the data bus under some circumstances. The other is that this may well be an RFI issue which would explain why lowering the RF power cured it. It could also explain why there is no software fix for it. It does NOT explain the near total silence on the part of the manufacturers. But it COULD explain why not all machines do it. Depends on circumstances and antenna placement.... disconnected from its AP and searching for it, I would assume the power is at its highest (unless limited by the power setting in the device options menu).

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#24 Post by pgoelz » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:18 am

UPDATE......

The flashing came back, but I sorta understand why. Yesterday I UNchecked "allow Windows to turn this device off to save power" in device manager for the WiFi card. I then left the machine sleeping overnight on battery power. Since hybrid sleep is enabled, that meant that overnight it eventually hibernated. When I woke it up this morning (still on battery power) it woke up UNconnected to WiFi. I then noticed the WiFi icon was briefly replaced with the Ethernet icon and when the WiFi icon came back it started flashing again.

After I got the flashing mostly stopped (by keeping the mouse in motion) I CHECKED the WiFi card option "allow Windows to turn this device off to save power" and it now waked up from hibernation still connected, with no flashing. Counter intuitive?

Yesterday I opened a case with Intel and gave them all the information plus a link to this thread. Lets see what happens next. Given the fact that this problem goes back more than a year with no definitive resolution, I am not holding my breath.

I have done a full disk backup in Macrium Reflect. The W8.1 recovery media arrives today. I plan on restoring back to factory original and seeing if the flashing is still an issue. Not sure what to do if it is NOT ;) I am very curious why this does not affect everyone.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#25 Post by pgoelz » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:41 pm

OK, update time for anyone following this thread.

First off, Lenovo sent a replacement WiFi card. It did NOT resolve the issue and behaved identically to the original card.

Then totally by accident, I discovered that an external RF field will easily stimulate the IDENTICAL symptoms while on battery power... the screen starts flashing erratically, continues to flash and/or eventually goes totally black long after the RF is terminated, and resumes normal operation as soon as AC power is applied.

I am an amateur radio operator and just happened to make a brief transmission on 443 MHz from a palm sized 2W handie talkie with the X1C on my lap on battery power. To my surprise the screen started flashing and continued to flash erratically after the brief transmission. It only stopped when I plugged the AC adapter back in.

I am now very suspicious that the WiFi antennas in the lid may be producing RFI in the display or possibly a mainboard device. That would explain why not all machines are affected and also why the issue resolves when you reduce the transmit power. Unfortunately, short of running on reduced transmit power there may not be an easy fix since the real resolution would involve changing antenna locations, shielding and/or circuit board re-layout.

This is currently just very educated speculation based on some observations and tests.

I am in correspondence with Lenovo and have filled them in on this latest development. I have also been corresponding with Intel, but they have asked that I pursue this with Lenovo since this appears to be an issue with the integration of Intel products and not with an Intel product itself. At the moment I agree and will continue pursuing this with Lenovo.

As an aside, reducing the transmit power on the WiFi card does seem to resolve the issue. And with reduced power, I still seem to be able to connect occasionally to a VERY weak Xfinity WiFi AP in the neighborhood that has either one bar or no bars. So the reduced transmit power does not seem to be much of a detriment.

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#26 Post by w0qj » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:03 pm

Hi pgoelz,

Appreciate your updates and glad that Lenovo is helping out in your (lucky) warranty coverage for your X1C3...

But it is still possible to get a refund from your eBay purchase?
It's not working properly to be fair...

(Our two units of X1C3 have no such problems...)

Kind regards,
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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#27 Post by pgoelz » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:21 pm

w0qj wrote:Hi pgoelz,

Appreciate your updates and glad that Lenovo is helping out in your (lucky) warranty coverage for your X1C3...

But it is still possible to get a refund from your eBay purchase?
It's not working properly to be fair...

(Our two units of X1C3 have no such problems...)

Kind regards,
w0qj
It might be possible to pursue a refund through Ebay but A) I don't think that would be fair to the seller and B) I am not sure it is actually "defective" in the traditional sense. It takes a specific set of circumstances to stimulate the issue and sometimes I can't get it to do it. I am currently of the opinion that it is more of a design issue that may or may not manifest in any given machine. If that is correct, then I think it would be Lenovo's responsibility to either fix my machine or replace it. But.... with the transmitter power reduced, the issue is in effect resolved. In the absence of any better solutions, I may be able to simply call it a work around and move on.

Paul
Paul Goelz
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Rochester MI USA

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#28 Post by pgoelz » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:26 am

OK, more information.....

1. I discovered quite by accident that a moderate RF field at 443 MHz will cause the IDENTICAL symptoms, and the flashing continues after the RF is terminated. In my case, I made a brief transmission at 433MHz (amateur radio) from a 2W hand held transceiver with the laptop on my lap on battery power and discovered that it will stimulate the flashing from as far as 3 feet away. The flashing continues until I plug AC power back in.

2. I can also stimulate the flashing by passing a USB stick WiFi card (2.4GHz) behind the display. There is a sensitive spot just above the lower edge of the screen and an inch or so in from the left edge.

3. When I passed this information on to Lenovo Service, they said it was beyond their scope (I think they mainly swap parts) and asked me to post on the Lenovo forum since Lenovo monitors it. I did so and there has yet to be any response from Lenovo.

In the mean time I discovered that I missed three settings in the Intel HD Graphics app that are only in effect on battery power. After disabling "panel self refresh", "extended battery life for gaming" and "display power saving technology" I can (so far at least) no longer duplicate the screen flashing while trying to connect to a weak AP.... even with the transmit power set to MAXIMUM. I don't know if this actually cures the issue, but if nothing else, it would seem to prevent the display from entering a continuous flashing mode that is can only be reset upon reboot or returning to AC power. If nothing else, that would seem to be a reasonable work around since it does not require reducing transmit power. If it holds, I can move on and enjoy the X1C instead of waiting for it to fail.

Paul
Paul Goelz
www.pgoelz.com
Rochester MI USA

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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#29 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:21 am

One last effort if you want:
put those 3 graphics settings back the way they were.
Then put a piece of aluminum foil on the lid over that sensitive spot and try your weak AP again.
Alu-foil acts the same as the RFID-stopper in a good wallet.
Just a crazy idea...

w0qj
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Re: X1C3 display flashes???

#30 Post by w0qj » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:58 am

As an aside: So we can try using aluminum foil to wrap our credit cards in aluminum foils to protect against would-be pay-wave thieves?
Might be worth a try ;)
RealBlackStuff wrote:...
[Aluminum]-foil acts the same as the RFID-stopper in a good wallet.
...
Last edited by w0qj on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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