Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1231 Post by bgx » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:06 pm

that's of course assuming a T470 base.

if they keep only a T470 mainboard but allow to change the rest,we could have other format than 16:9 - 16:10, but that would make it bigger than wanted.

But they could also use a X270 mainboard, or a thinkpad 13 mainboard.

thinkpad 13 board with 14.1 3:2, that's the same width (which is what they would need to match).
http://www.displaywars.com/13,3-inch-16 ... 4-inch-3x2

X270 with a 13.1" 3:2
http://www.displaywars.com/12,5-inch-16 ... 1-inch-3x2
or with a 13.7" 4:3
http://www.displaywars.com/12,5-inch-16 ... 7-inch-4x3

i do believe the T470 base though, so it leaves us with 16:9 (big bezel) or hopefuly 16:10 (small bezel).

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1232 Post by Puppy » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:08 am

pianowizard wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:17 am
But now that 16:9 laptops have exceeded 1920x1080, I no longer miss 1920x1200.
The form factor still looks odd, similar to Sigma dp0 Quattro camera. Too wide without providing any benefit.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1233 Post by dr_st » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:37 am

pianowizard wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:17 am
I completely agree. Up until a couple years ago, 16:10 vs. 16:9 was a fairly pronounced difference as the former maxed out at 1920x1200 while the latter at 1920x1080, and 1920x1200 is much more useful. But now that 16:9 laptops have exceeded 1920x1080, I no longer miss 1920x1200. If the Retro Thinkpad is going to be 14.0" 16:9, 2560x1440 would be ideal. If it's going to be 16:10, hopefully it's 2560x1600 and not 1920x1200.
Resolution is not everything (I know that to you personally it is, but this isn't the case for everyone). Form factor in some cases is more important than pixel density. However, as I said - the difference between 16:9 and 16:10 is so small, compared to the difference between 16:10 and 4:3, that if one was able to adjust to 16:10, 16:9 should not be as big a deal as people claim.
Puppy wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:08 am
The form factor still looks odd, similar to Sigma dp0 Quattro camera. Too wide without providing any benefit.
As more and more content is created with widescreens in mind, and as UI gets more and more tailored to widescreen, the benefits will become tangible (it's a process that's already ongoing), even though there will be forever things that are just better suited for more square form factors.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1234 Post by Puppy » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:00 am

dr_st wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:37 am
As more and more content is created with widescreens in mind
Have you noticed transition from dynamic-width web design to fixed-with one ? Most of current web sites are actually widescreen unfriendly (Amazon or this phpBB forum are few excpetions only).
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1235 Post by thomase13 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:18 pm

Puppy wrote:Have you noticed transition from dynamic-width web design to fixed-with one ?
I definitely have!

Many Web sites like Facebook, Sourceforge, and others now require a vertical scrollbar on my XGA ThinkPad (1024x768).
XGA has been standard for so long, but now with these wider Web sites, I find XGA+ to be ideal for me (1152x864).

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1236 Post by pianowizard » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:30 pm

dr_st wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:37 am
Resolution is not everything (I know that to you personally it is, but this isn't the case for everyone). Form factor in some cases is more important than pixel density. However, as I said - the difference between 16:9 and 16:10 is so small, compared to the difference between 16:10 and 4:3, that if one was able to adjust to 16:10, 16:9 should not be as big a deal as people claim.
That's exactly my point. Shape-wise 16:10 and 16:9 aren't that different, which is why I suspect that many people who hate one much more than the other aren't really bothered by the shape difference, but instead by 1920x1200 versus 1920x1080.

2560x1440 laptops are still uncommon and so most 16:9 haters haven't tried them yet. I wonder what these folks will say after having some experience with them. Offering 2560x1440 on 14.0" is one of the few Thinkpad innovations that I have liked in recent years. The X1 Carbon with this resolution is pretty compelling; too bad I am not interested in getting one because it's too big to fit in the tiny bag that I like to travel with these days. For the longest time I claimed that the DPI (209.8 ) would be too high, but now I find it very acceptable even without scaling. My Surface 3's 10.8" 1920x1280 is 213.7 DPI and I can view it for hours without feeling strained. A decade of using smartphones has trained me well!
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1237 Post by bgx » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:36 pm

the bottom line is:
do you want big plastic bezel around ur screen, or do you want actual pixels you can use for something?

I hate the T470 bezel.
with a 14.1 16:10, this would be much nicer (less bezel, more screen, everybody wins).

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1238 Post by TPFanatic » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:45 pm

Puppy wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:00 am
dr_st wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:37 am
As more and more content is created with widescreens in mind
Have you noticed transition from dynamic-width web design to fixed-with one ? Most of current web sites are actually widescreen unfriendly (Amazon or this phpBB forum are few excpetions only).
Winamp's home page must be wider than 1055 pixels or the links for download do not appear at 100% size. A flaw in their website, but an example of how XGA is no longer the standard. I feel 1280 pixels, WXGA, is the minimum usable width for modern websites now. I unfortunately can't fit two 1280-width browsers side by side on my WUXGA without downscaling and am sad that there is no 15.4" WQXGA to put in a T500.

Could one of these feasibly be installed in a T500?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1239 Post by Summilux » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:31 am

lophiomys wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:13 am
IMO a Thinkpad is either "classic", or it is not:
Fully agreed - though I'd be inclined to include 3:2 screens as well.
I'm afraid we won't have a real, proper, Classic Thinkpad.
Ibthink wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:32 am
Retro ThinkPad - Its Alive - blog post by David Hill.
Lenovo has never been keen on broadly sharing details concerning unannounced products. Retro ThinkPad has not been granted an exception to the corporate policy.
Lie, lie, blatant lie. The Classic Thinkpad was supposed to undergo a very open design process, D. Hill himself told us this. Surely the exception must have been indeed granted back then ?
It has a wonderful black rubberized coating, three TrackPoint caps, and a keyboard to die for.
Three trackpoint caps ?! Wow, that's, wow, a royal treat ! :lol: It's not like it used to be a standard feature or anything...
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1240 Post by dr_st » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:47 am

pianowizard wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:30 pm
That's exactly my point. Shape-wise 16:10 and 16:9 aren't that different, which is why I suspect that many people who hate one much more than the other aren't really bothered by the shape difference, but instead by 1920x1200 versus 1920x1080.
Many, perhaps, but far from being the majority. Considering how frequently I see rants about 16:9 vs 16:10 here, and how infrequently people bring up resolution in that context.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1241 Post by Puppy » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:38 am

Summilux wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:31 am
Lie, lie, blatant lie. The Classic Thinkpad was supposed to undergo a very open design process, D. Hill himself told us this.
Is there any reliable (archived) source of this statement ?
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1242 Post by Summilux » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:02 pm

Puppy wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:38 am
Is there any reliable (archived) source of this statement ?
I certainly remember it but forgot where I read it, either in blog posts or within comments of those posts.
The closest I could find is :
Expect to see more blogs on this topic as Lenovo determines what’s next.
Source : http://blog.lenovo.com/en/blog/retro-th ... e-to-think (17/08/15)

Been almost two years already. Where are the additional blog posts on the Classic TP topic ? :roll:
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1243 Post by Ibthink » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:32 pm

You think that David Hill didn´t want to tell the fans more? This project is his pet-project. Unfortunately, he is not the one who calls the shots on such things.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1244 Post by Puppy » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:27 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:32 pm
You think that David Hill didn´t want to tell the fans more? This project is his pet-project. Unfortunately, he is not the one who calls the shots on such things.
I would expect he made the conditions clear before the project started. Otherwise I'd rather leave such lousy company instead of looking like a fool.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1245 Post by Ibthink » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:25 am

Well, maybe you would. But David Hill is working on ThinkPads as a designer since 1995. You think he is going to abandon his lives work so easily?

Big companies are complicated and there is always politics involved in all of it. David is on the side of the ThinkPad-users. Other people maybe don´t care so much.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1246 Post by lophiomys » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:56 am

Pet project here - David Hill, good guy, there.
The paying premium customers do not care how inefficient Lenovo is organizing their internal work process.

Waiting for 10 years for a "Classic Thinkpad" with workhorse qualities and reliable support service,
whilst the Customer Relationship Management and information strategy was below reasonable standards,
is an ongoing and terrible hardship for customers.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1247 Post by Ibthink » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:46 am

You know what would be an even more terrible hardship for the "paying premium customers" (many of which probably didn´t buy a new ThinkPad for a long time)? If there would never be a Thinkpad with a 7 row keyboard again. No one else but Lenovo can do it, because they own this brand. No one else can make a machine with this type of keyboard and TrackPoint, Dell and HP with their enormous resources have tried for so long in the past and never quite matched ThinkPads.

And the market is moving in a very different direction. The Macbooks with their non-usable Touchbar keyboards could be a premonition of things to come.

So my idea would be to try to empower the people at Lenovo who do care about the needs and wants of the ThinkPad fans, instead of spitting in their face and accusing them of lies. This project is just a step on this long road, but its an opportunity for the ThinkPad fans to show Lenovo that there is interest, to prove that some of the decisions that Lenovo has made were maybe not quite right.

But that would require getting over a personal entitlement and thinking in the larger picture...
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1248 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:57 am

Lenovo are consistently lowering their "quality" ideas and ignoring customer demands, especially about screens and keyboards!
Won't be long now before they get on a par with the likes of Toshiba and Acer, if they continue like this...

Trying to impress people with a "Retro"-plan and then keeping your mouth shut for years on end is not exactly trust-inspiring.
If Lenovo had any brains, they would at least have "leaked" something/anything at some time(s) to keep people happy.
Remains to be seen what (if anything) comes out in the end, other than possibly an early 2018 floptop with a 2017 anniversary label.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1249 Post by Puppy » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:00 am

Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:46 am
No one else but Lenovo can do it, because they own this brand.
Exactly ! That's why there is no reasonable reason to not make the design process transparent including some essential information like screen aspect ratio. Instead of it, Lenovo still acts like a stubborn kid. Missed opportunity to be unique and different.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1250 Post by bgx » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:32 am

I agree 100% with ibthink.

Stop the rant. Info is nice, but what we want is real product. That will hapen only in october, we have known that for 1 year at least.

All your complains is totally useless.
You can have impact. Buy the product. Make it a success. Then we can hope for 7 row option on all thinkpad.
If the T25 is not 16:9, we can also hope for more non 16:9 screens in the normal thinkpad line.

IF the projet fails (not big demand), it will be the end of anything we can hope for.
The only way to go would then be using X65 and T73 mod by N51 in 5 years, but honestly, I dont think it is a reasonable sustainable road.

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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1251 Post by Summilux » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:45 am

Puppy wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:27 pm
I would expect he made the conditions clear before the project started.
This.

Don't make an announcement like this if you haven't checked beforehand that what you intend to do has been greenlit by the brass.

And if you did have the green light, but now the higher-ups have changed their minds ? What do you do ? What's the most polite and professional way to deal with this situation ? Well, maybe you can just write one sentence stating that it's been decided to let the project into stealth mode. One sentence. Is that too much to ask ?
Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:25 am
Well, maybe you would. But David Hill is working on ThinkPads as a designer since 1995. You think he is going to abandon his lives work so easily?
It's 2017. There's Kickstarter and Indiegogo. Any startup can get its projects funded by the crowd, and there is/was a big crowd waiting to finally get its hands on a proper laptop. D. Hill could have formed his own little and successful company, and he would have enhanced his career path in the process. When one has tonnes of experience and wants to continue building great systems, that's the logical thing to do.

But no, D. Hill has chosen to stay on the side of the ever lower quality, which he even defends. What has become of his designer pride ? I don't understand his ethics. Maybe Lenovo has secretely tasked him with designing a laptop that'll make Thinkpads great again ? That would make sense, except any promise of "making something great again" usually ends up in the rubbish bin of History, and the controversial results/interpretations of the Classic TP surveys were a good indication that something bad was brewing.

D. Hill still has the benefit of the doubt until the unveiling of the prototype, but it's wearing extremely thin.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1252 Post by Ibthink » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:57 am

Summilux wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:45 am
Well, maybe you can just write one sentence stating that it's been decided to let the project into stealth mode. One sentence. Is that too much to ask ?
There have been multiple occasions like on CES 2016 where he stated that they are still working on it. Which was probably the only thing he could do without breaking Lenovos NDA rules.
Summilux wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:45 am
It's 2017. There's Kickstarter and Indiegogo. Any startup can get its projects funded by the crowd, and there is/was a big crowd waiting to finally get its hands on a proper laptop. D. Hill could have formed his own little and successful company, and he would have enhanced his career path in the process. When one has tonnes of experience and wants to continue building great systems, that's the logical thing to do.
I doubt you understand how much money, time and personell it requires to build a custom designed laptop (which that would be) from the ground up. Not to mention all the patents Lenovo has. Such a machine would never be as good as a ThinkPad and even then it would probably cost more than 3000 $. If Mr. Hill would leave, would the engineers in the Yamato design lab come with him? No. There is no guarantee that something like this would work out. Its just delusional.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1253 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:16 am

bgx wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:32 am

All your complains is totally useless.
Had we not been complaining - loudly - all over Internet, there would've never been another ThinkPad with a 7-row keyboard. Now, that's a double-edged sword...read on.
You can have impact. Buy the product. Make it a success. Then we can hope for 7 row option on all thinkpad.

If the T25 is not 16:9, we can also hope for more non 16:9 screens in the normal thinkpad line.
That's a lot of unfounded optimism right there. Lenovo will take the money and run, never to re-visit the concept again. Mark my words.
IF the projet fails (not big demand), it will be the end of anything we can hope for.
For many of us, this project has already failed, at least partially. A 7-row keyboard is a necessary component of a "classic" ThinkPad, but does not equal one per se.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1254 Post by lophiomys » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:19 am

Right, IbThink. (A very rare thing that I would agree to one of your arguments.)

The other way round:
Especially for Lenovo - the former IBM PC/Laptop division -,
it would have been easy to build such a "custom designed laptop":
because they have the engineers, they have the facilities, they have the patents, and it is a big company.

After all it was built before, e.g. many customers would be happy with a refreshed version of the T43p.
That is for sure not rocket science.

This is one of the major reasons, why there is so much upset.

---
Besides:
Full ACK to akjula66s reply.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1255 Post by Summilux » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:24 am

Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:46 am
You know what would be an even more terrible hardship for the "paying premium customers" (many of which probably didn´t buy a new ThinkPad for a long time)?
Well, whose fault is this ? :lol:
Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:46 am
If there would never be a Thinkpad with a 7 row keyboard again. No one else but Lenovo can do it, because they own this brand. No one else can make a machine with this type of keyboard and TrackPoint, Dell and HP with their enormous resources have tried for so long in the past and never quite matched ThinkPads.
Even the brand owners can screw up their image and products, we have a perfect example here : Lenovo.
On the other hand, small, amateur but dedicated teams have shown they could come up with interesting works even with limited funds (see the 51nb guys).

Now imagine what could be if a relatively respected product designer like D. Hill worked full time on a proper laptop lineup, being his own boss, attracting investors and crowdfunding. With goodwill and the help of rapid prototyping, it's not far-fetched to think they would at least approach real TP quality - precisely because D. Hill would supposedly know what to do. Maybe it'd still be a notch under TP-branded products, whilst offering great ergonomics, good quality (e.g. properly selected components), a reactive customer service. I bet a good number of people would be sold on such a package.
Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:46 am
So my idea would be to try to empower the people at Lenovo who do care about the needs and wants of the ThinkPad fans, instead of spitting in their face and accusing them of lies. This project is just a step on this long road, but its an opportunity for the ThinkPad fans to show Lenovo that there is interest, to prove that some of the decisions that Lenovo has made were maybe not quite right.

But that would require getting over a personal entitlement and thinking in the larger picture...
Proving Lenovo that they were mistaken ? But we repeatedly told them and strangely they didn't listen much. At that point our saliva is better spent on the face of Lenovo's executive officers than in our mouths trying to get ourselves heard again and again.

Which is why faithful customers and brand promoters have the right, and actually, the duty to complain about a company which turned to crap and let them down. Otherwise they're just brainless sheeps who'll buy anything just because it has a TP logo.

In the same order of idea, faithful TP designers and engineers would do well to leave a company which has devalued their hard work and stomped over their pride.

So yeah, I want to empower these people. I absolutely want to support them... to quit this oppressive, sinking ship that is Lenovo, and create a new, proper company of their own. That's not unheard of. That's actually what smart, talented people do when their bloated companies won't let them do a proper job.

That's the kind of long road I can be patient, and supportive, about. Lenovo wants to be an Apple 2.0 ? Let them shoot themselves in the foot. I'm calling the designers and engineers to become the Steve Jobs and go create their own NeXT computers ; in this case, create the NexTP.
bgx wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:32 am
You can have impact. Buy the product. Make it a success. Then we can hope for 7 row option on all thinkpad.
I get your logic but it should never be forgotten that in the grand scheme of things, the burden of behaviour lies upon Lenovo, not upon us. If they want a success, they should do as we told them, because they perfectly know what we want. The vendor must adapt to the customer, not the opposite.

Sure, they could screw us again, but it wouldn't be too dramatic IMHO because it would only serve to demotivate their troops and incitate people to defect from their ranks. And hopefully some of those people would work on a NeXTP further down the line.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1256 Post by Summilux » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:36 am

Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:57 am
There have been multiple occasions like on CES 2016 where he stated that they are still working on it. Which was probably the only thing he could do without breaking Lenovos NDA rules.
I've never read any clear article written by him about either continuing the work or abandonning it.
And again if they were continuing, he's failed to inform us (or inform that he would no longer inform), so he broke his promise.
Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:57 am
I doubt you understand how much money, time and personell it requires to build a custom designed laptop (which that would be) from the ground up. Not to mention all the patents Lenovo has. Such a machine would never be as good as a ThinkPad and even then it would probably cost more than 3000 $. If Mr. Hill would leave, would the engineers in the Yamato design lab come with him? No. There is no guarantee that something like this would work out. Its just delusional.
I don't buy your pessimism. Key patents are expiring, there's still sizeable money to grab from VCs (and laymen), and with that, there's lots of talents from the best places in the world. They wouldn't be the Yamato guys, but nobody is irreplaceable. Comparable engineers can be found. And I expect someone like D. Hill to have the industry and business connections to get access to key people.

It's mostly a matter of willpower and ability to convince the VCs. The rest will follow. And the end product might not be as good as a real TPs, but it would definitely be better than all those half-baked fake TPs produced by Lenovo.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1257 Post by Ibthink » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:16 am

@ajkula66,

this project doesn´t exist because of complaints. It exists because our friend Jin Li aka lead_org personally convinced David Hill at CES 2015 to pursue this idea and then he convinced the Thinkpad product management people that they should at least give it a try with the initial blog and that there is interest. The rest is history.

Companies in general don´t listen to complaints and suggestions, unless it threatens their profits. People might, but companies don´t. Complaints brought back the physical TrackPoint buttons in 2015, but that was because it also affected Lenovos bottom line on ThinkPads negatively, as even the corporate customers complained (and started to buy laptops from other manufacturers).

As for if it failed you or not, I agree that is has probably failed for you or people like lophiomys. You want a modern T60 and it isn´t that. But it won´t fail for a larger group of people who are stuck with machines like the X220 or T420. While this is disappointing for sure, it is a step. I agree with Louis Rossmann on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfO8ZHWPZ80 Change often can´t be too radical, but gradual. And bringing back the TrackPoint buttons, pure black chassis colors, more status-LEDs for the normal T/X series, touchpad buttons and dedicated volume buttons on the P-Series and finally this project - these are all small victories.

@summilux,

not saying this is not Lenovos fault, but the key problem is that normal ThinkPads don´t target individual buyers, at all. Individual buyers are just the bonus. They target corporate. Hard-core ThinkPad fans are a negligible part of the sales volume for sure, and I doubt their share got bigger. Meaning that there also is even less of an incentive to listen to them.

As far as "telling them, but they don´t listen" - see above. It doesn´t matter unless it affects their bottom line. But this works both ways: You can change the course of the company by affecting their bottom line negatively - which is not very likely that hard-core ThinkPad fans can do it. Current ThinkPads are too good for that, so casual individual buyers will keep buying, ThinkPadders are not a very large group and not the main target group anyway.

Or you can change it in a positive way. Wouldn´t be possible normally, because there is no regular ThinkPad with a 7 row keyboard, so you can´t actually specifically support the product you like. But this is a rare opportunity for ThinkPad fans to do become noticed. If this product is sold out fast and Lenovo has great success - it might bring change. No guarantee, but its maybe possible.

As far as encourage people to leave: I doubt that would happen. People value their own job and financial security over delivering the perfect product. It just doesn´t work like that in reality. Idealistic people are rare and companies are organizations constructed to crush such ideals, because profits are more important. No matter which company. Companies that aren´t like this are really rare.

If Lenovo dies, its more likely people will scatter in the wind and ThinkPad is lost forever. Though Lenovo dying also seems unlikely, the PC market is shrinking, but Lenovo is one of the two biggest manufacturers, so it seems pretty likely they are one of the manufacturers to survive until the PC market dies completely.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1258 Post by lophiomys » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:55 am

From what I do observe in my work environment, - I know I am repeating myself -
I think the pro-users and CEO/CTOs demonstrating the use of good Classic Thinkpads are indeed a factor.
Especially if you quantify their advertising effect and good word of mouth (not existing today for Thinkpads.)

In the past most of my colleagues did actually use expensive Thinkpad models. Today it's on or two Yogas in total.
The rest is diversity among other pricey corporate brand products: HP, MacBookPros, Dell and Asus ZenBooks.

There is also this famous photo from this NASA conference room full of Apple MacBookPros...
From what I see, I don't think all corporate users are buying cheap.
Here we are talking vanishing Service quality and bad screen quality, which corporations do not like in the long term.

All the Best.
Lophiomys
Thinkpads with 15inch 4:3 UXGA 133DPI IPS/Flexview: 2x T43p SATA Mod., 3x T42p (dying by Flexing), 2x T60p (1xATI, 1xIntel/new BoeHydis);
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1259 Post by ajkula66 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:30 pm

Ibthink wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:16 am
@ajkula66,

this project doesn´t exist because of complaints. It exists because our friend Jin Li aka lead_org personally convinced David Hill at CES 2015 to pursue this idea and then he convinced the Thinkpad product management people that they should at least give it a try with the initial blog and that there is interest. The rest is history.
With no disrespect to Jin Li, the idea wouldn't have been given the time of day had it not been for a plethora of persistent complaints all over the web. Read on...
Companies in general don´t listen to complaints and suggestions, unless it threatens their profits.
Or if they see a chance to make a quick buck. In this particular case, the conversation likely went along the following lines: "Comrades, it appears that there's a number of suckers - pardon me, customers - armed with hard currency who would be willing to pay a premium for a 7-row keyboard. Let's part them with their hard-earned cash, and make ourselves look good in the process. We'll do what corporations do best - please put on your "Hold on while I pretend I care" T-shirts everyone - and dive down like a kamikaze pilot.

Colour me cynical, because I am. Having spent the past 18 years working for a Fortune 20 company, I have no choice but to be that way, having witnessed numerous things that I'd much rather forget.

If Lenovo dies, its more likely people will scatter in the wind and ThinkPad is lost forever. Though Lenovo dying also seems unlikely, the PC market is shrinking, but Lenovo is one of the two biggest manufacturers, so it seems pretty likely they are one of the manufacturers to survive until the PC market dies completely.
Not necessarily.

There's a lesson to be learned from other industries.

When a large corporation acquires a well-known-brand, it's usually for the purpose of squeezing every last red cent out of its name by any means necessary, while cutting costs and maximizing short(er)-term profit.

Ford has done it to Jaguar. Who in their right mind could've ever imagined that the cars sporting the mighty cat on the hood would become as boring as they did in the 80s and 90s, all the other issues aside.

Who - back in 1965 - could've foreseen that CBS would be churning out millions of Fender instruments that lacked *any* QC in the late 70s, bringing the brand literally to death's door in the early 80s?

Both of these brands - as different as they may be in just about every core aspect of their very business existence as well as the target market(s) - were saved by people who understood that the only way to keep prestige and make money - in the longer run - was to offer a proper product.

Given the chokehold that Lenovo has on the Chinese market, we'll never get a *proper* ThinkPad from them again, they still make way too much money to be bothered . The rigging of the aspect ratio poll was a dead giveaway even for ones far less cynical than myself.

The only hope that we might have IMO is them selling the brand off to someone else, which is not likely to happen soon, if ever.
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Re: Thinkpadders Rejoice (*LARGE PICS*)

#1260 Post by chx1975 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:01 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:30 pm
"Comrades, it appears that there's a number of suckers - pardon me, customers - armed with hard currency who would be willing to pay a premium for a 7-row keyboard. Let's part them with their hard-earned cash, and make ourselves look good in the process. We'll do what corporations do best - please put on your "Hold on while I pretend I care" T-shirts everyone - and dive down like a kamikaze pilot.
That doesn't sound plausible. It wouldn't have taken two plus years to bring the old keyboard keyboard back for a chance of profit. Merely adding back the old keyboard and charging a 300 bonus for a modified palmrest and a keyboard which they need to keep producing anyways because corporate customers might want parts is not an earth shattering decision and I would've been happy to buy it. An injection mould, from what I remember, goes for low five figures so you need to sell only about a hundred plus to get even and then it becomes profit. But no, this is not what happened.

What we have gotten instead is what I describe as the keyboard winter where no devices with usable keyboards are available: no phones, no laptops. The last phone was the Droid 4 (2012), the last laptop the Sandy Bridge generation (2011) or some hack into the Ivy Bridge generation (2012) -- no matter how you slice it, winter has come in 2012 and we have been living on what we have hoarded before the winter struck: I have two T420 and a T420s and two Droid 4 phones. This July we hope for the keyboard mod for the Moto Z to happen and then the Retro this October and we will soak up the little sunshine this brief respite allows and hope that Lenovo keeps their promise with several generations of the Moto Z being compatible with the mod and the Retro having Thunderbolt 3 keeping it from obsolescence even longer than the T420/T420s did. Yes, somehow we ended up with Lenovo holding all the strings (except for the team making the actual mod but ironically, they matter less once they ship -- the obsolescence of it is Lenovo's decision). But the winter will continue and our stocks now will need to last another five years if not more. I will stock up accordingly.

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