Thinkpadders, do NOT Rejoice, WEEP and/or DESPAIR!

[ajkula66]

At the end of the day...as much as I love "proper" keyboards, that's not a good enough reason (for me) to dish out $2K for a dressed-up T470. Not after the whole time-wasting saga that turned into one big yawn.

I'm actually not upset at Lenovo, but at myself first and foremost for being naive enough at my age to believe even for a split second that they were interested in bringing back the ThinkPad in its glory.

Fool me once...etc.

[Thinkpad4by3]

51NB up next, 702C?

Dumping 2K on that: fine

TP25: no.

[w0qj]

To be respectful of classic ThinkPadders, if you can work with a FHD LCD (which we use daily):

This is a "Good Enough" notebook with a classic ThinkPad keyboard, and with future-proofing to boot too:

1. Classic ThinkPad keyboard with backlight (a la T410/T420).
2. m.2 PCIe NVMe SSD (future-proof)
3. USB-C connection (future-proof)
4. 16 GB RAM (future-proof)

~I for one also wished it had 5-year on-site Next Business Day service too!

~To be fair, all Windows-based notebook nowadays are 16:9 LCD ratio,
and this ThinkPad 25 is also the same as all others...

Sorry, fixed one: http://www.jonashendrickx.com/2017/10/0 ... -thinkpad/

...I have a TP25 incoming...where I will pick them up in three weeks, a 2242 512GB SSD has been ordered as well and if I see a number of confirmations of the 16GB being single module I will grab a second module too...
...I am overjoyed how cheap the T25 is while ticking all my boxes. ...
...But classic keyboard with...TB3? DANCE! If the mobile Thunderbolt 3 graphics dock promised for the Yoga 920 happens, my little powerhouse is complete.

Yes, I wanted five year on site warranty but I can live with three.

Yes, I wanted four lanes Thunderbolt 3 but I can live with two.
...

[dr_st]

Subaverage screen, no WQHD screen option, outdated 7th gen CPU (October 2017), crappy nVidia drivers, questionable support (spare parts) ... no, I am not going to buy that.

Let go of the CPU already. Right now it's the newest CPU that can be had. 8th gen is not going to be available for a couple of months yet, and the anniversary happens to be today, not in January. Every CPU gets "outdated" the following year. So what, nobody should release laptops in the fall because the new ones always appear in the spring?

It is obviously you are not going to buy it. From the same reason I am not going to buy it as a personal machine. We don't need it, and as a fancy unique toy for bragging rights it's just not good enough.

However, think for a moment if you were starting a new job at a company, and the company asked you what laptop you want, giving you the option between T470, T470s, T470p and Thinkpad 25. Each has upsides and downsides. What would you choose and why?

And what would you choose if the choice had been only between T470 and 25, since they are more or less direct clones, minus the keyboard (and they even cost basically the same for similar configurations, as Notebookcheck pointed out)?

[Puppy]

Right now it's the newest CPU that can be had. 8th gen is not going to be available for a couple of months yet

Dell XPS 13 with 8th gen Core i7-8550U CPU now shipping in US (2017/09/13)

And what would you choose if the choice had been only between T470 and 25?

None because of the display. I'd get T470s but the only WQHD configuration available over here is terribly overpriced ($3500) because of 1 TB SSD and LTE modem.

[dr_st]

Dell XPS 13 with 8th gen Core i7-8550U CPU now shipping in US (2017/09/13)

OK, right. I confused 8th gen CPU with 8th gen PCH. I forget sometimes that Intel does these weird mixed-gen configurations.

None because of the display. I'd get T470s but the only WQHD configuration available over here is terribly overpriced ($3500) because of 1 TB SSD and LTE modem.

It doesn't matter - it's a custom order and company money. So out of the 4 options you would get the T470s because to you screen resolution is more important than classic keyboard. Fair enough.

[Puppy]

It doesn't matter - it's a custom order and company money. So out of the 4 options you would get the T470s because to you screen resolution is more important than classic keyboard. Fair enough.

Yes, because of Windows 10 and text anti-aliasing that can not be turned off I can partially get rid of it in Windows 7 / 2008 but these systems are getting outdated for work.

[Summilux]

In this thread, so far 56 pages of comments, suggestions, hopes, curses, disappointments, lies, crazy ideas and what not.
And all that for just a modded keyboard on a little over 5,000 laptops?
Big NONO for LeNONO!

Textbook example of an incompetent company. Disregard loyal users' inputs and come up with a random crappy commemorative variant of your regular crap

The configuration is wrong at all. No WQHD, forced touchscreen, crappy nVidia
videochip, outdated CPU generation, forced LTE WWAN

I'd gladly put up with all of that if there was a proper screen, status LEDs, latches, etc.

I'm actually not upset at Lenovo, but at myself first and foremost for being naive enough at my age to believe even for a split second that they were interested in bringing back the ThinkPad in its glory.

Don't blame the victim. It's all Lenovo's fault.

[RealBlackStuff]

But let's not forget lead_org (Jin Li)!
He has given us 2 years of intensive discussion and lots of hope!
If it hadn't been for him, we would never even have seen the "Return of the Classic Keyboard".
Sad and bad enough that Lenovo ballsed it all up, save for that keyboard.

Still, a HUGE THANK YOU to lead_org for all his efforts.

[oeuvre]

I was hoping to buy one but a few weeks ago when it was revealed it would just be a T470 with a few "classic" features and outdated hardware, nope.

Especially for that price. I don't know why anyone would pay $1,500+ for an ULV machine.

[fatpolomanjr]

Yeah, sincerely, thank you lead_org. I wish things could have turned out better but at least we got somewhere with all of this.

[ajkula66]

But let's not forget lead_org (Jin Li)!
He has given us 2 years of intensive discussion and lots of hope!
If it hadn't been for him, we would never even have seen the "Return of the Classic Keyboard".
Sad and bad enough that Lenovo ballsed it all up, save for that keyboard.

Still, a HUGE THANK YOU to lead_org for all his efforts.

Yeah, sincerely, thank you lead_org. I wish things could have turned out better but at least we got somewhere with all of this.

+1 and then some.

It was Dante I believe who said that road to hell was paved with good intentions...

[ajkula66]

That's wild. How does he know?

He's a Lenovo insider and I'm fairly certain that at this point in the game was likely promoted to a Mod on Lenovo's forum. There's a lot of stuff where I disagree with him, but he's definitely very well informed.

And should we weep?

A matter of one's perspective, I guess. You are definitely a more forgiving person than I'll ever be, so more power to you. Seriously.

BTW, I'm not weeping. Just sitting in disgust. But that's me.

[theterminator93]

But let's not forget lead_org (Jin Li)!
He has given us 2 years of intensive discussion and lots of hope!
If it hadn't been for him, we would never even have seen the "Return of the Classic Keyboard".
Sad and bad enough that Lenovo ballsed it all up, save for that keyboard.

Still, a HUGE THANK YOU to lead_org for all his efforts.

Well said RBS... agree completely.

Just got the shipping notification for mine... looks like it'll show up Saturday. Let's see how this goes. The TRUE test of if it's worth it... will be whether I choose to use it or the T420 it'll likely replace.

[axsh]

Well after lurking around for a while, I registered just to "speak my piece".

I also wish to thank Mr. Hill, who seems to me the only one (publicly at least) associated with this project who cared to demonstrate some sense of "accountability", insofar as it was within reason.

Now I know why he said it was "epic" - Epic FAIL!

The crime here is not that "Lenono" failed to produce. We know this whole 16:9 fiasco (and its universal timing and uniform enforcement worldwide in 14" and above Windows "ecosystem") was a part of Billy G's effort to yield market lead to the Fruit Company (to which he was a preferred shared holder and original investor), and part of his plea bargain in the early 2000s to prevent M$ anti-trust bust-up.

But Lenovo led me on.

Thus I agree with poster above that this is La No No.

Below came courtesy of 51nb forum:

hill：YQ，老朽捏了几个25周年复刻版的样子，你看看。。。
hill: YQ, Li'l ol' me mocked up a few 25th anniversary homage models, take a look, will ya ...

YQ扭头问：那边470怎么样了。。。
YQ turning head the other way: How goes your 470 over there?

那边：这是470的样子。。。
Over there: Here is what 470 looks like ...

YQ：好，想办法把hill的7排键盘装上，按25周年复刻版发！你们还有什么意见吗，没有就都退下吧。。。
Fabulous, figure out a way to shoehorn Hill's 7-row keyboard into this, push it out of the door as the 25th anniversary Retro! Any objections? No? Go home everyone ...


============
以上都是瞎编的，如有雷同，纯属巧合
Any Resemblance to Actual Persons, Events, Living or Dead, Current or Past, is Purely Coincidental

[kfzhu1229]

https://forum.51nb.com/data/attachment/ ... l1ti12.jpg
if you look at this picture from that forum, why does it say 20th anniversary instead of 25??

[axsh]

That was brother (or sister) Hope showing off/peddling off his/her NOS 20th anniversary X1 Carbon as in:

http://vrzone.com/articles/thinkpad-x1- ... 17725.html

It was apparently a palliative s/he was offering the broken-hearted.

BTW the photo you showed was the "Chinese domestic edition" according to 51nb, and not the JDM limited edition (500). The reason I mention that is because I personally wouldn't put any stock into Lenovo's supposed "5000"-piece limited T25 run.

On the other hand, 5000 or 5,000,000 are moot to me personally anyway.

Might as well be 50.

As they say, dead to me.

[chx1975]

If it would be 5000 there wouldn't be a single one left by now. No way.

[dr_st]

The configuration is wrong at all. No WQHD, forced touchscreen, crappy nVidia
videochip, outdated CPU generation, forced LTE WWAN

I'd gladly put up with all of that if there was a proper screen, status LEDs, latches, etc.

Sorry to tell you my opinion, but you focus on stupid crap. Puppy's complaints are more meaningful.

Especially for that price. I don't know why anyone would pay $1,500+ for an ULV machine.

The price is pretty much the same price as the retail price of a similarly configured T470.

Yeah, sincerely, thank you lead_org. I wish things could have turned out better but at least we got somewhere with all of this.

This summarizes my thoughts on the topic pretty accurately.

[Puppy]

This summarizes my thoughts on the topic pretty accurately.

The most valuable outcome of this story is not the ThinkPad 25 itself but the experience with Lenovo. There were endless discussions along "if they" for years but now we know for sure they don't want to build useable laptop anymore other than a generic one.

I can also imagine what the team had been working on for two years, they were assembling those 5,000 boxes in their spare time

[dr_st]

You can interpret the experience in more than one way.

At least there is currently one model with a usable keyboard. One that exists solely because of community push from the outside with some partners on the inside. How many other manufacturers have done anything similar recently?

Remember how ages ago, Thinkpads were not the only laptop with a standard desktop-like 7-row keyboard design? I've worked with Compaqs and DELLs that had the same. They moved away from it before Lenovo did. Why hasn't any one of those manufacturers listened to its customers?

IMO, all that needs to be done now is to convince Lenovo to put the same keyboard on more models, and slowly but surely you will have once more a variety of Thinkpads with usable keyboard to choose from.

One way to do it is to buy Thinkpad 25 and only Thinkpad 25. And if they run out, tell them to make more. If you cannot order online, call your local Lenovo sales office, and tell them that you want a Thinkpad 25. When they offer you to select from one of their other models, tell them very specifically that you want Thinkpad 25 and only that, because of the keyboard and only that. Tell them that it's such a shame that they have so many nice machines, but you cannot pick any one of them because the keyboard sucks. Tell them to call you back when they have more models with proper keyboards available. No one will call you back, but if enough people call enough sales/customer services reps, word eventually does get back to corporate, and things can change.

The other way to do it is to find the one or two key people in the company, meet them face to face and yell at them that they are so full of crap and they better get their act together and start producing real stuff and not garbage. I know of at least one case when it worked in the past. There are two problems - (1) you have to find these key people, and sometimes it can only be done accidentally, (2) you have to a big enough client with a large potential sales volume to back you up for the conversation to have effect.

[Puppy]

It is easy, there are few people only who use laptops for some productive work and insists on useable keyboard layout. I think that ThinkPad customers only actually praised the 7-row keyboard layout, that's why it did not happen in case of Dell and others.

As for the "you" in the rest of your comment, it would have to represent several big companies to ring the bell. They don't care. Remember there are currently many people who are able to use those terrible MacBook keyboards with 0.5 mm key travel (worse than 80's pocket calculator ones) and lack of navigation keys. They even prefer them over the better ones. The development is not always going further.

There is also another argument in Reddit discussions against the common use of 7-row keyboard, the 6-row one is shorther (height) thus allows bigger touchpad that customers want.

[Summilux]

Sorry to tell you my opinion, but you focus on stupid crap. Puppy's complaints are more meaningful.

You're entitled to having an opinion. Processors have reached a good enough point long ago, so in the grand scheme of things I couldn't care less about having a 7th gen CPU instead of an 8th gen one. I don't care about the wireless chips either. Now, a proper ergonomic screen and screen closing system ? Yeah, that I do care about.

At least there is currently one model with a usable keyboard. One that exists solely because of community push from the outside with some partners on the inside.

Yes. But consider the amount of efforts vs the final result, and the "achievement" is really relative.

How many other manufacturers have done anything similar recently?

Remember how ages ago, Thinkpads were not the only laptop with a standard desktop-like 7-row keyboard design? I've worked with Compaqs and DELLs that had the same. They moved away from it before Lenovo did. Why hasn't any one of those manufacturers listened to its customers?

Back then IBM was still #1 in terms of laptop quality (better keyboard/trackpoint). So I don't think these two brands have developed the same type of followers, and not the type to push for the return of classic machines. I actually think that if Dell had been in the stead of Lenovo, it would have outputted a much better anniversary laptop - a real T25 as opposed to a T470-25.

The other way to do it is to find the one or two key people in the company, meet them face to face and yell at them that they are so full of crap and they better get their act together and start producing real stuff and not garbage. I know of at least one case when it worked in the past. There are two problems - (1) you have to find these key people, and sometimes it can only be done accidentally, (2) you have to a big enough client with a large potential sales volume to back you up for the conversation to have effect.

A third way is to no longer deal with Lenovo and try empowering people who could replicate IBM laptops instead. We already know some people with very decent skills (51nb), who with some help (engineers, D. Hill ? ) and money (crowdfunding) could probably achieve respectable results. I don't know if they'd be willing to embark upon such a journey though.

[Puppy]

I actually think that if Dell had been in the stead of Lenovo, it would have outputted a much better anniversary laptop

I wouldn't be so optimistic. Laptops became mass market where almost nobody demands high-end products anymore. We have to live with that It is completely different situation than photography equipment or musical instruments market.

[lophiomys]

I would be happy to participate in crowd funding for a classic Thinkpad.

For the poorly equipped T25 I would have to consider to spend even as much as 1000,- EUR.

[Summilux]

I wouldn't be so optimistic. Laptops became mass market where almost nobody demands high-end products anymore. We have to live with that It is completely different situation than photography equipment or musical instruments market.

Photography faces a similar situation. Just as people now use their tablet instead of a laptop, the same people use their phone instead of a proper camera.

But there's still a market for expensive cameras, just like there's a market for 3000€ fruitbooks.

A real Classic Thinkpad, too, could succeed. It's a matter of proper execution and smart marketing. Design a very ergonomic product and market it as such. Explain how the look of the laptop might seem dated, but it's very relevant to today's needs. And it's actually superior to today's mainstream offerings. Educate prospective customers about the benefit of using a trackpoint. How that Thinklight is useful. Have celebrity coders and celebrity bloggers try this classic laptop for a month.

Plus, it wouldn't have to be extremely costly to be high end. It's a matter of how well the hardware does its job, and for that you don't always need the most expensive components.

[axur-delmeria]

Thinkpadders, do NOT Rejoice, WEEP! (*LARGE PICS*)

Weep? More like...

DESPAIR!!

[dr_st]

Yes. But consider the amount of efforts vs the final result, and the "achievement" is really relative.

What "efforts"? Perhaps you mean "noise" and "hype".

A third way is to no longer deal with Lenovo and try empowering people who could replicate IBM laptops instead. We already know some people with very decent skills (51nb), who with some help (engineers, D. Hill ? ) and money (crowdfunding) could probably achieve respectable results. I don't know if they'd be willing to embark upon such a journey though.

That way, while legitimate, will probably be much longer and more painful. In case of Lenovo - the technology, the knowledge, the connections and the legal groundwork is all there. What lacks is some corporate will. That's surprisingly easy to change with pressure at the right spots (although finding the right spots is typically not easy). Building the same level of expertise and connections from the ground up is far more difficult, at least as long as you aim for anything close to the same volume.

I guess you can say that you are NOT aiming for the same volume. Puppy, for example, believes that the demand for high-quality laptops for productive work is actually quite low at this point. If he's right, then perhaps a community-driven project can succeed for such a small audience, but you would still have to give up a great deal of reliability, maintainability (replacement parts and repair services), and long-term sustainability.

[joeu]

I'm actually not upset at Lenovo, but at myself first and foremost for being naive enough at my age to believe even for a split second that they were interested in bringing back the ThinkPad in its glory.

Fool me once...etc.

Nothing risked, nothing rewarded. I think that part of the pitch for the ThinkPadRetro is the emotional repsonse. Without that, what leverage is there get Lenovo going down this path. Clearly they were not convinced to go very far, and I wonder what would be seen as enough success to continue the journey.

[pianowizard]

Guys, there is no reason to be so upset over the price tag. As time goes by, it will be 10% off, then 20% off, and later even 30% off etc. All Thinkpad models go through this cycle. If the TP25 is sold out very fast, then the discounts may not happen, but almost everyone here seems to be convinced that it won't sell fast. And of course, eventually (in 5 years?) you can buy it used for a couple hundred bucks.

I probably will never buy another laptop -- see viewtopic.php?f=58&t=124127 -- but if I were looking for a laptop, I too would skip the TP25 like most of you, and the main reason is that FHD simply doesn't cut it.