So Who Actually Ordered?

[RealBlackStuff]

So far I get the impression that already [sic] three forum members have ordered a T25-Retro. WOW!

[Thinkpad4by3]

Even though the T25 as a machine may suck, I tink it might be the turning point for keyboards. We did it with the stupid clickpad torture device, we can do it again.

[theterminator93]

True, it may leave a bit on the table as far as what *could* be bought today. But right now, it's the only real keyboard available on a device. That's the primary reason I ordered... Thinking about getting the 61++ 6 cell battery for it to supplement/replace the 3 cell it came with. Should add 4-6 hours to the runtime, for a total of 15-20 hours (or 20-25 with the 3 cell swapped out when it is depleted).

Who else actually has (or ordered) one? I hear a lot of people grumbling about specs, but unless you have [had] one in your hands and [are] using it... you have no idea how it actually feels/performs. As far as I can tell I'm the only one here who has one in hand. And no, I'm not saying it's perfect or close to perfect. From a political standpoint yeah it's a lousy compromise on Lenovo's part but it's still a good machine.

Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I hope we see this keyboard as an option in the regular lineup in the near future...

[w0qj]

Well, we are actually fully loaded up on ThinkPads one way or another...
As much as we love to support/encourage ThinkPad brand to bring back the traditional 7-row keyboard,
unfortunately TP25 not quite enticing enough to lure us away from our T410...

Also, our "old" ThinkPad T410 had just had a major overhaul less than a year ago...
(upgraded to max 8 GB RAM, SSD upgrade, new OEM battery, vacuumed its GPU exhaust pipes...)

So our predicament is as follows, T410 compared to TP25 (ThinkPad 25):

1. Classic Keyboard: T410 already has one (ok, no keyboard backlighting). TP25: same keyboard layout with backlighting.

2. Built-in DVD Drive: T410: actually comes in handy! (TP-25: none).

3a. LCD: T410 has 16:10 superior aspect screen ratio (TP-25: 16:9 LCD same as every other Windows-based laptop).

3b. LCD Screen brightness: T410 (~200 nits) only slightly dimmer than the (already) dim TP25 LCD (~227 nits).
But both are far below that of T470 or X1 Carbon (270-290 nits).

4. CPU/GPU: OK, TP25 (obviously) has much more horsepower, but our T410 CPU/GPU has more than enough horsepower for its use.

In summary:
Like we have said, if TP25 had a 16:10 LCD screen (which it does not have), then we would jump at the chance of buying TP25! (4:3 LCD preferred).
[Edit: Even a FHD LCD screen with ~270 nits or above for US$120 additional would be enough for us to dump our T410 to T25.]
But as it is, TP25 not quite enticing enough to lure us away from our T410, specifically because of TP25 LCD screen specs...

[jaspen-meyer]

I got a bad feeling when you wrote that it would be the same performance as a t420 (as I'm replacing my t430s-classic-keyboard-mod) so I did some googling:
CPU 20% faster overall,
10-15% faster integer speed,
30% faster floating point.
at 15W instead of 35!
Which gives a 20% increase of speed at less than half the power draw.

Source:
http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/In ... 71274vsm50

The T420 processor can be upgraded. I use a i7-3630QM I got for $60 on ebay. It holds up well against the i7-7500u:
+2% overall
+65% integer speed
+45% floating point

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/In ... 71274vs626

[Ibthink]

But both are far below that of T470 or X1 Carbon (270-290 nits)

Not quite true: The ThinkPad T470 has a screen thats nominally 250 nits bright, just like the ThinkPad 25. You can get lucky or unlucky with the LCD brightness, with both you can get a screen thats a bit brighter than 250 nits or less bright.

[Thinkpad4by3]

True, but my base model(I think) X230 beats the living S*** out of those displays. It even gives my W700 with its 400 nit display a run for its money. Now why in the world should a i7 w/ nVidia graphics T25 be stuck with a piece of junk 240-260 nit display? Lenovo is up to their display games again.

[Olangu]

I got a bad feeling when you wrote that it would be the same performance as a t420 (as I'm replacing my t430s-classic-keyboard-mod) so I did some googling:
CPU 20% faster overall,
10-15% faster integer speed,
30% faster floating point.
at 15W instead of 35!
Which gives a 20% increase of speed at less than half the power draw.

Source:
http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/In ... 71274vsm50

The T420 processor can be upgraded. I use a i7-3630QM I got for $60 on ebay. It holds up well against the i7-7500u:
+2% overall
+65% integer speed
+45% floating point

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/In ... 71274vs626

Wont you get a problem with throttling? That CPU is 45W TDP...
My t430s runs quite hot and I do remember that the t420s did the same. Might not be true for the non s versions tho.

And one thing that everyone forgets is the incredible low power on idle of the TP25 - ~5W.
Two of the main problems with the xx20-series is the sub par battery life (Yes, I do have the extra ultra bay battery) and the wiggly/breaking screen hinges.
I can easily do a full working day on the TP25 and the screen hinges so far seem very sturdy. (I still wish they where mounted on top so I could have ports on the backside tho.)

[theterminator93]

Yes, I agree. This hinge design is probably the part I dislike about this model the most. And battery life vs. heat/power consumption is truly astonishing. I've been following CPU generation trends since the 20/30 series and wasn't impressed at all in core-to-core performance improvements, but solely based on figures for per-clock performance. I knew the efficiency was improving but it didn't make much impact with me. Now that I've got one in a mobile device I see how attractive it actually is - to have better performance and substantially better mobility.

When the surveys were being done a couple years ago (aside from getting the real keyboard back) I thought the biggest thing I'd miss if they omitted it was the ultrabay. Surprisingly I don't miss it as much as I thought I would. But that may also be because I have so many other TPs with it, that I'll never need to look far to get my fix...

As far as the comparison between the 7500u and 3630qm... dual core vs. quad core? One uses well over twice (maybe even three times) the power of the other, puts out three times the heat; it's a bit like comparing an X220 to a W520. Of course the W520 will be more powerful, but also much less portable! Totally different market segments.

I highly value single threaded performance benchmarks. In this regard the i7-7500u is anywhere from 15-21% faster than any of the i7-2640m, i7-2860QM or i7-3630QM. Now, multithreaded, just about any old quad core will outperform a new dual core when considering multithreaded apps - and comparing them isn't practical for level playing field purposes; again, different target markets. But for discussion's sake - let's take a look.

The 7500u scores about 5200 in PassMark's multithreaded benchmark. The similarly clocked 2640m scores about 3900; the i7-2860qm gets ~7000 and the i7-3620qm is about 7500. Now the dual core CPUs here obviously have 4 threads and the quads have 8. Also, at max. turbo all of these have a similar clock speed (3.4-3.6 GHz), meaning they should scale somewhat linearly all else being equal (which we know it's not due to advances in design). So if we simulate the quads as dual cores for a hypothetically more level playing field (you could do the same in reverse to simulate the 7500u as a quad), they only perform at about 60-65% the performance level of the 7500u. Pretty good performance boost over the last few years, no? All the more if we half the TDP of the quads to mimic the TDP of the duals - 15W for the 7500u vs. 22.5W for the "half-quad". Mathematically speaking it's almost 2.5 times more efficient on a performance vs. power/heat level!

Of course, all these advances in power efficiency manifest in low/moderate loads on the CPU. If you bog the CPU down at 100% load then any CPU is going to drain the battery in its host in an hour or two, max., depending on battery capacity.

Again it comes down to target market in the performance sense. I consider the TP25, in this weird 14" ultrabook category, to be more an ultraportable than a mobile workstation. It's kind of stuck there because of the hardware and form factor that was decided for it. Unfortunately it's a bit of a mongrel because today's truly ultraportable markets are dominated by the likes of the X1C. The 14" laptop market segment seems to be in a squeeze, IMO, because it's the compromise area. But again IMO, it's a good compromise (as a starting point) between those in both fields, as long as you don't need all of one or the other for your duties. The die hards will never compromise but the moderates can (I sound like I'm talking about left vs. right politicians!). But in that sense, I recognize that everyone's needs/desires are different - and with this being the middle of the road machine, I also recognize that it's not going to be a practical decision for everyone. As such I respect all the comments and observations about "it doesn't have this", or "that part's old", or "I hate this", or "I can't work with that" in that sense. But some of this bandwagon bashing I've seen going on? That's not something I value.

[Puppy]

Those who get T25: You have paid for WWAN, time to check you really get it
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... 5_no_wwan/
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... izing_sim/

It seems as there are actually different specs for particular regions. Lenovo makes just another mess.

[Summilux]

That's beautiful !

This T25 s.hitshow just keeps getting better and better.

Did I order it? Will it ship? Will it arrive with all the parts? WHO KNOWS! Here at Lenovo we feel the journey to get the laptop is just as important as actually using the f.ucking thing.

[ajkula66]

As such I respect all the comments and observations about "it doesn't have this", or "that part's old", or "I hate this", or "I can't work with that" in that sense. But some of this bandwagon bashing I've seen going on? That's not something I value.

There are two separate issues at work here IMO:

1) The machine itself AND

2) The road that got us to it.

My refusal to purchase it is based roughly 70% on the latter and 30% on the former. It's fair to say that I wouldn't be buying the machine as it is even if the journey that led to it were a different one. Having a touchscreen panel as the only LCD option is a huge "no" in my book. There are several other aspects that I'm less than pleased with as well, but could very well understand why some of us here have bought the system nevertheless.

My $0.02 only...

[w0qj]

In our Asia region, Lenovo actually offered two (2) options:
A) With WWAN (aka Mobile Broadband), or
B) Without WWAN

Unfortunately that was the only option we can choose from; no LCD screen options

Also, our Region had put up TP25 on web sales on Tuesday Oct 10th, and is still selling this as of today Oct 14th...

Those who get T25: You have paid for WWAN, time to check you really get it
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... 5_no_wwan/
https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comme ... izing_sim/

It seems as there are actually different specs for particular regions. Lenovo makes just another mess.

[theterminator93]

As such I respect all the comments and observations about "it doesn't have this", or "that part's old", or "I hate this", or "I can't work with that" in that sense. But some of this bandwagon bashing I've seen going on? That's not something I value.

There are two separate issues at work here IMO:

1) The machine itself AND

2) The road that got us to it.

My refusal to purchase it is based roughly 70% on the latter and 30% on the former. It's fair to say that I wouldn't be buying the machine as it is even if the journey that led to it were a different one. Having a touchscreen panel as the only LCD option is a huge "no" in my book. There are several other aspects that I'm less than pleased with as well, but could very well understand why some of us here have bought the system nevertheless.

My $0.02 only...

And this type of reasoning I respect completely. I understand your point of view as I too feel similarly, albeit not as strongly compared to my desire to have a new unit with a real keyboard (which, honestly, if the reverse had been true - 4:3 IPS and status LEDs and so forth but 6 row chiclet, I wouldn't have bought it). As far as the touchscreen... I never touch the LCD anyway so it didn't really make any difference to me whether it was or wasn't touch.

Now, if they release more models down the road that more closely reflect what we actually asked for, then..... Although I'd say this is not likely based on what we just went through to get even this much. Hence the fear in my mind of us never getting that keyboard again, and my decision to get it while I could.

[MBG0001]

I ordered one, currently showing as out for delivery.

It was the keyboard for me. Moving off my old T520 keyboard dropped my productivity by half.

[thinkpadgeek91]

I was going to sell my new Ryzen desktop build then decided that I will just find a nice T420s and hang onto it for dear life.

[Thinkpad4by3]

I was going to sell my new Ryzen desktop build then decided that I will just find a nice T420s and hang onto it for dear life.

Should pick a T430s and classic keyboard mod it.

[thinkpadgeek91]

I was going to sell my new Ryzen desktop build then decided that I will just find a nice T420s and hang onto it for dear life.

Should pick a T430s and classic keyboard mod it.

I probably will!

[Thinkpad4by3]

I had a maxed out T430s before it died. A 840 Pro SSD, 16GB RAM and an i7-3520M. That thing was fast!!!!

[Cooler22]

Why DID Lenovo go down the drain? A lot of people blame the IBM/Lenovo branding buy out but thinking about it, Lenovo kept the ThinkPad pride until recently, the real question is why. There are plenty of good and innovative models such as the T420 and the w700ds, and more! Even the highly praised t60 was still made by Lenovo and was near exactly the same with the t61. But WHY did Lenovo decide to ditch the idea?

[Thinkpad4by3]

Likely price. A new X1 carbon can be loaded up pretty much a little over 1K. The X301 loaded up cost about 5K. Not many people wanted to pay the premium so they gave them the new Thinkpads because they were cheaper and more relate-able to the market share.

Cost cutting measures:
6-row was easier to manufacture because everyone else is making one.
No roll cage
Cheap 16:9 displays
Cheaper coatings/plastics
Thinner means less parts.
No removable battery means less parts.
No docking port is less to buy and those parts are expensive.

Advantages to market:
99% of the world benefits from a better trackpad
7 rows is weird to people. I've had people come to me and ask why my laptop keyboard is weird. That's where I should have responded with, "because it is better than yours!"
Cheaper machines means that business will buy them more for bulk orders.
Indicator lights look bad to consumers(because screw them!! )
etc.

[ajkula66]

Likely price.

That was certainly an important part of the equation.

The X301 loaded up cost about 5K.

No it did not. They retailed under $3000 for absolute top configuration in the USA.

[Thinkpad4by3]

Then I shall stand corrected. I'm not sure who told me. Still, a 1K less difference will still make people more likely to buy it.

[Summilux]

Why DID Lenovo go down the drain? A lot of people blame the IBM/Lenovo branding buy out but thinking about it, Lenovo kept the ThinkPad pride until recently, the real question is why. There are plenty of good and innovative models such as the T420 and the w700ds, and more! Even the highly praised t60 was still made by Lenovo and was near exactly the same with the t61. But WHY did Lenovo decide to ditch the idea?

Recently as in "2011/2012" ? Even then, the quality was already going downhill. Lenovo is incurable.

[Thinkpad4by3]

Yes it was going down hill, but it still had a magnesium rollcage. It still had a 'black' rubberized coating, not this grey flat junk. Still had the composite plastic stuff. It still had full voltage CPUs that were replaceable in most models.

2013 marks the date we lost all of that stuff.

[ajkula66]

As far as the touchscreen... I never touch the LCD anyway so it didn't really make any difference to me whether it was or wasn't touch.

I don't touch my screens either, apart from the one on my work-issued tablet. It's just that the touchscreens in general - and I've seen many - don't play well with my eyes probably due to the coating process used. Add PWM and...here comes the migraine. No thanks.

Now, if they release more models down the road that more closely reflect what we actually asked for, then.....

I'd venture a guess that this very hope lives in hearts of many ThinkPad buffs. We shall see.

Yes it was going down hill, but it still had a magnesium rollcage. It still had a 'black' rubberized coating, not this grey flat junk. Still had the composite plastic stuff. It still had full voltage CPUs that were replaceable in most models.

2013 marks the date we lost all of that stuff.

Proper rollcages were gone long before 2013...

[shawross]

No it did not. They retailed under $3000 for absolute top configuration in the USA.

Yes the salient point here is in the USA. In Australia the X301 fully loaded was over $4000 depending on the exchange rate.

The TP25 is $2500 AUD at our exchange rate now and I realised if Lenovo produced a proper Retro it would have been over $3000 AUD.

If it lasted 5 - 10 years that is OK but with declining build quality it is not a given. IMO

[Thinkpad4by3]

Proper rollcages were gone long before 2013...

Yes, the "proper" rollcages were long gone. I've replaced the W700 motherboard and I think about 50% of the weight goes to the solid chunk of metal. I opened up a T430s and found magnesium parts in there. An **40 machine is like the T4x machines, without IBM's superior engineering to keep it together. Those machines were still quite solid without it, though the chips coming off kinda sucked(blame the lead free solder paste).

[dr_st]

In our Asia region, Lenovo actually offered two (2) options:
A) With WWAN (aka Mobile Broadband), or
B) Without WWAN

Unfortunately that was the only option we can choose from; no LCD screen options

Also, our Region had put up TP25 on web sales on Tuesday Oct 10th, and is still selling this as of today Oct 14th...

Interesting!

How does the Thinkpad keyboard layout for Hong Kong look like? Could you post a picture? Even if you don't have a Thinkpad 25 picture, I imagine all Thinkpads would be the same. My interest is the shape/size of the Enter, Shift, Backspace, etc., as well as the placement of the English alphabet keys.

[w0qj]

Hi dr_st,

Here is the link to our ThinkPad region:
http://www3.lenovo.com/hk/en/laptops/th ... 2TP2TTTP25

I believe that it is just the same (American) keyboard, same as photos all over the internet, no difference.
There was a closeup shot of the [Enter]/[Backspace]/[Shift] keys, same rectangular shape as other internet web TP25 pictures.
Honestly, with TP25 going down the "no customization" route, I don't seriously expect ThinkPad would do yet another regional keyboard just for Asia!

Hope this helps

In our Asia region, Lenovo actually offered two (2) options:
A) With WWAN (aka Mobile Broadband), or
B) Without WWAN
...

...How does the Thinkpad keyboard layout for Hong Kong look like? Could you post a picture? Even if you don't have a Thinkpad 25 picture, I imagine all Thinkpads would be the same. My interest is the shape/size of the Enter, Shift, Backspace, etc., as well as the placement of the English alphabet keys.