What is a brand new T61P worth?

[olddog]

Just bought a used T61P on UK Ebay for a reasonable price, and to my astonishment it appears to be absolutely brand new. There isn't a mark on it apart from a very small scratch on the lid, not deep, which might have been made while taking it out of the box. Although the hinges themselves are fixed firmly, there is a little play, and this is the nearest thing to a fault that it has.

I am in two minds whether to keep it or sell it. I don't NEED it, and it's obviously not a fast machine by today's standards, but if I do keep it I wouldn't dare use it for fear of spoiling it! Which means of course that logically I should sell it.

But since when did logic have anything to do with it?

Intel Core 2 Duo T7700 2.4GHz
2GB
320GB
DVD-Writer
Windows 7 Home Premium
15.4", WUXGA, Widescreen
NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M
Date: 07/10 (Yes, I know!)

What should I do? And is it worth much?

[SKA]

Sent you a PM - please reply by email thanks.

Ska

[theterminator93]

Well, it's by no means brand new... it's just well cared for. The fact that there is hinge play speaks that it was used regularly for a time, possibly with a docking station and an external mouse and keyboard - which would explain the lack of wear. I remember when my T61p was brand new, the hinges were very tight and very stiff. The T61p was also never shipped with anything other than XP or Vista, so the fact that it has 7 on it means someone wiped it and set that up.

All that said, a good T61p with an Nvidia chip of that date, with those specs, I wouldn't spend more than $100 to $150 US or so on it. However a number of those machines were warranty serviced to have the GPU updated a while back, so there's a possibility the GPU has been updated (you'd need to disassemble and check the date on the CPU to be sure of that) - which would drive the value up. But as with everything, the value of an item is only as great as that which someone else is willing to pay for it.

I've got my original T61p which I bought new in September of 2007, with similar specs (it came with a T7700, 3GB, WUXGA, FX570M, 160GB HDD), and never use it anymore (it's been upgraded a bit since). I paid around $2600 for it! I also built a T61p of spare parts for my wife, using a factory FX570M, 2010-GPU motherboard, that doesn't get used anymore either...

[wujstefan]

All that said, a good T61p with an Nvidia chip of that date, with those specs, I wouldn't spend more than $100 to $150 US or so on it.

Pretty much like that such specced.
With LG screen this drives up a little (large) bit.

What is a brand new T61P worth?

Aaaaw you tricked me here. I really thought you were able to find a NOS one This particular one is not a new one by any means. Check the production date on the bottom; if it's around 0802 or earlier $70 is the absolute max you may find for it. 0808 or later (there are rumors it did exist) would hit at least $400 to my taste.

it's obviously not a fast machine by today's standards

I've performed graphics tests vs T510, T520 and T530 nVidias lately. nvs5400m was the first one to really win the chase. Add in X9000 / FSB-modded X9100 and a SHARP screen, and this baby really still rolls out. Unless you're a gamer, it is ^^

[olddog]

Thank you for your comments.

I have been doing more research into this machine, which included taking a look at the disk drive, which also appears brand new, but is dated Jan 2015. I have also been looking for signs of wear to support the suggestion that the machine is "by no means brand new, but well cared for". There really aren't any such signs, even the soles of the rubber feet look new. And there are no marks to suggest it was ever placed on a dock.

It has a Vista COA sticker on it.

My guess is that it was issued as a matter of course to some technophobic company director who never used it so that it sat in a cupboard for years.

As for the hinges, I have read that sometimes these were faulty from new.

Clearly the date means it's never going to be worth a great deal, so I'll probably keep it. However, I will check the date on the CPU - or did you mean GPU, Mr Terminator?

One final thing. On the bottom, underneath the CD drive, there was once a sticker, since removed, that had the word VOID printed on it numerous times. The sticker has gone, but traces of the word remain. Has anybody encountered these?

[wujstefan]

One final thing. On the bottom, underneath the CD drive, there was once a sticker, since removed, that had the word VOID printed on it numerous times. The sticker has gone, but traces of the word remain. Has anybody encountered these?

Sure. These are leftovers from third-party anti-tamper stickers. They are commonly placed over the screws by third parties / resellers to make the buyer sure they will loose their third-party warranty if the sticker is removed. Very popular move in eastern Europe.

Clearly the date means it's never going to be worth a great deal, so I'll probably keep it.

Again: check he black sticker that ends with lonely 4-digit number. This is the clue when the device was assembled - first two for the year, another two for the month. Since these systems were prone to nVidia failures (see a couple of posts in this forum) that was subjected by nVidia late february each system with build date prior to 0802 is considered high risk, and each system dated 0808 or later is considered safe (as much safe as 10-years old machines could be anyway...). Most of Europe systems are from May production batches; I guess this was the time when large companies ordered them for their engineering stuff.

I have been doing more research into this machine, which included taking a look at the disk drive, which also appears brand new, but is dated Jan 2015. I have also been looking for signs of wear to support the suggestion that the machine is "by no means brand new, but well cared for". There really aren't any such signs, even the soles of the rubber feet look new. And there are no marks to suggest it was ever placed on a dock.

Maybe it was refurbed or sth. If it was used, it's a second hand used device, no argue here please. New means new. it may be mint - but you may not know that unless you open it. Turn it on, check the HDD drive worked time. Check the date on the bottom. If you want to tinker, check the date code on GPU (not on CPU, as it was the GPU that made the difference). It is printed as year-week on graphics chip, so 0810 is something you'd like to see, and 1001+ is something you'd love to see.

[theterminator93]

Yes, GPU (not sure how I missed that typo!). As was said, look for the date code in week and year of manufacture. Nobody knows exactly what week the chip problem had been revised by on the assembly line though.

I've had the luxury of having come across numerous 0809 dated nvidia T61s to sell. I still have one in my personal collection that, as your recently acquired T61p seems to be, appears mint. They're the less desired model - the 14" 16:10 flavor with the basic screen, and they've got the NVS, not the FX chip. I've been able to sell them for about $100 each, most recently just a month or so ago. I've also sold a few with non-safe nvidia dates as well. Those usually go for $30-$50, depending on condition.

As far as that sticker, it's probably an asset tag that was removed (not uncommon on ThinkPads, as they are, after all, primarily a corporate product line). Goo-gone is a product we use over here that makes quick work of the leftover, sticky adhesive goo.

[olddog]

Having played around with the machine for a bit, I am definitely going to keep it. It has the best screen of all my TPs, and I can't bear to part with it.

[ajkula66]

Having played around with the machine for a bit, I am definitely going to keep it. It has the best screen of all my TPs, and I can't bear to part with it.

Install Middleton's BIOS, re-paste the CPU or preferably swap it for T8300/9300. SSD comes next and you'll have something to truly enjoy for a few more years.

[olddog]

Having played around with the machine for a bit, I am definitely going to keep it. It has the best screen of all my TPs, and I can't bear to part with it.

Install Middleton's BIOS, re-paste the CPU or preferably swap it for T8300/9300. SSD comes next and you'll have something to truly enjoy for a few more years.

My thoughts exactly.

I have a Middleton T61 with T9500 & SSD and until two weeks ago it was my favourite TP. However, it has a 1680x1050 screen, whereas the "new" T61P has 1980x1200, and it is just better. It's also seems better than the 1980x1080 on my W530, though possibly that's just delusion.

Mind you I also rather like my 14.1" T42 with 1400x1050, but T42s are showing their age.

To me the T6x series seem like the last of the true Thinkpads. The T4xx series are obviously more capable, but they have less soul. Partly it's the latter's larger trackpads, which make them more mainstream and less distinctive. I don't think I could contemplate using a T440.

[ajkula66]

It's also seems better than the 1980x1080 on my W530, though possibly that's just delusion.

Well, that delusion seems to be shared by quite a few other people, myself included...

Mind you I also rather like my 14.1" T42 with 1400x1050, but T42s are showing their age.

A lot to like there - to me, 14" T4x series are the prettiest ThinkPads ever - but in A.D. 2019 even my maxed out SATA-modded T43p with an SSD is barely usable.

I don't think I could contemplate using a T440.

The last generation to sport a swappable CPU is a huge positive for those, but unfortunately the keyboard is an absolute deal-breaker for silly old me...

[Raidriar]

Install Middleton's BIOS, re-paste the CPU or preferably swap it for T8300/9300. SSD comes next and you'll have something to truly enjoy for a few more years.

My thoughts exactly.

I have a Middleton T61 with T9500 & SSD and until two weeks ago it was my favourite TP. However, it has a 1680x1050 screen, whereas the "new" T61P has 1980x1200, and it is just better. It's also seems better than the 1980x1080 on my W530, though possibly that's just delusion.

Mind you I also rather like my 14.1" T42 with 1400x1050, but T42s are showing their age.

To me the T6x series seem like the last of the true Thinkpads. The T4xx series are obviously more capable, but they have less soul. Partly it's the latter's larger trackpads, which make them more mainstream and less distinctive. I don't think I could contemplate using a T440.

Since you have a T61p, I would strongly suggst you flash Highsun's BIOS as you can undervolt the FX 570M, lowering temperature drastically and increasing the longevity of your system, in addition to boosting battery life. I would start with the 0.95V undervolt, and if you are brave, go to 0.90V. I personally have my FX 570M undervolted to 0.90V, it has made a monumental difference in temperatures.

[olddog]

That sounds like a good idea.

I shall investigate further.

Thanks.

Since you have a T61p, I would strongly suggst you flash Highsun's BIOS as you can undervolt the FX 570M, lowering temperature drastically and increasing the longevity of your system, in addition to boosting battery life. I would start with the 0.95V undervolt, and if you are brave, go to 0.90V. I personally have my FX 570M undervolted to 0.90V, it has made a monumental difference in temperatures.

[madicetea]

If you need an NOS T61p motherboard with the right GPU dates, there is probably no better place to look than this forum.

[olddog]

Thanks for the suggestion.

I have been in touch with Tuus, in connection with an earlier dud T61P which I had acquired. He can supply a board, and the price is not unreasonable, but given that this machine is working now I don't think there is much point in replacing the existing board unless and until it ceases to function.

I will be doing whatever I can to keep the temperatures down, and that I hope will keep the board going.

I'm not sure where forum user TuuS is these days, but he has some NOS boards left last I heard and he's not been jacking up the price on them, demand aside. If you think the computer looks to be in good condition and you're willing to DIY, why not extend its longevity (and its value) by replacing in a NOS board?

Anyway, enjoy what you can get of the machine -- they are fun, but I let go of mine because I found it too much trouble compared to my more portable X61 (on which I've definitely spent more than what an NOS T61 board would go for).

Just bought a used T61P on UK Ebay for a reasonable price, and to my astonishment it appears to be absolutely brand new. There isn't a mark on it apart from a very small scratch on the lid, not deep, which might have been made while taking it out of the box. Although the hinges themselves are fixed firmly, there is a little play, and this is the nearest thing to a fault that it has.

I am in two minds whether to keep it or sell it. I don't NEED it, and it's obviously not a fast machine by today's standards, but if I do keep it I wouldn't dare use it for fear of spoiling it! Which means of course that logically I should sell it.

But since when did logic have anything to do with it?

Intel Core 2 Duo T7700 2.4GHz
2GB
320GB
DVD-Writer
Windows 7 Home Premium
15.4", WUXGA, Widescreen
NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M
Date: 07/10 (Yes, I know!)

What should I do? And is it worth much?

[wujstefan]

Most of my devices are being challenged each day, and they stills tay strong. Other than that, did you check the real chip date? It's pretty easy to get access to it, and having known that you are planning to keep the device cool I presume this will also mean repasting - and this mean the only extra action needed is to take a glimpse Maybe you are lucky enough to get a factory refurb unit in Europe?

[olddog]

I have had a few other issues which have stolen my time recently, so until I catch up the T61P is sitting waiting exploratory surgery.

But the Arctic paste is in the drawer, and in a few days I hope to get stuck in.

Back in the day, it was said, perhaps on the Lenovo site, that only a small, though nonetheless significant, number of these machines died. If that was true at the time, is it still true? Or are almost all of them bound to fail?

Most of my devices are being challenged each day, and they stills tay strong. Other than that, did you check the real chip date? It's pretty easy to get access to it, and having known that you are planning to keep the device cool I presume this will also mean repasting - and this mean the only extra action needed is to take a glimpse Maybe you are lucky enough to get a factory refurb unit in Europe?

[wujstefan]

Well, the number was said to be signifficant - but this may be due to high volume of those machines sold to big companies. It may be that it was the likes of 3% over 3 years of service, but changing it to real number may show a four or five-digit numbers falling within the first 3 years. Just a guess. Still, nVidia adressed the issue, so they were aware that something was simply worse than it should. Updated chips were simply fixed of the flaw, still a part of electronics that may fail everyday.

Other than that, T61 and T61p planar quality is exceptional.

All units with dedicated graphics have an increased rate of failure. However, I have built or worked over 100 T61s with nVidia, and I've seen only two of them fail. 0208 and 0408 dated. I must say in my eyes and from my experience actually T60p was far more prone to VRAM failure. I have also seen many many T500 with failed ATI GPU (not to mention all the USB issues, burnt-out inverters and so on). Still, my Z61t died last week (CURSES!) and it sported intel GPU, so no piece of electronics is safe. Lots of us - including me - are still using those great machines. I even use mine for gaming, OVERCLOCKED, fully loaded, under heavy stress. And not a safe-dated still works flawlessly making me cheer up each time I turn it up. If I figure out how to make it work with my eGPU it's gonna get some extra service as well

Being you I'd check what is it just for "knowing". I would get a $25-40 spare mobo and keep it in your locker. And have joy from this fantastic, very last of the kind 16:10 piece of history. OK, this is not what-if. It's actually how it looks like for me

Or are almost all of them bound to fail?

They are 11 years into service, and there are lots of them still running. If this is ACER, Samsung, ASUS etc. junk, it would be long long dead. Thinkpads were made exceptionally well; I still have my A31p, G41, T43 all in service. And all of them with dedicated GPU

[olddog]

Well, that's encouraging. Thanks.

I can see this machine getting the full treatment - in due course.

I will report back when it's done.

Well, the number was said to be signifficant - but this may be due to high volume of those machines sold to big companies. It may be that it was the likes of 3% over 3 years of service, but changing it to real number may show a four or five-digit numbers falling within the first 3 years. Just a guess. Still, nVidia adressed the issue, so they were aware that something was simply worse than it should. Updated chips were simply fixed of the flaw, still a part of electronics that may fail everyday.

Other than that, T61 and T61p planar quality is exceptional.

All units with dedicated graphics have an increased rate of failure. However, I have built or worked over 100 T61s with nVidia, and I've seen only two of them fail. 0208 and 0408 dated. I must say in my eyes and from my experience actually T60p was far more prone to VRAM failure. I have also seen many many T500 with failed ATI GPU (not to mention all the USB issues, burnt-out inverters and so on). Still, my Z61t died last week (CURSES!) and it sported intel GPU, so no piece of electronics is safe. Lots of us - including me - are still using those great machines. I even use mine for gaming, OVERCLOCKED, fully loaded, under heavy stress. And not a safe-dated still works flawlessly making me cheer up each time I turn it up. If I figure out how to make it work with my eGPU it's gonna get some extra service as well

Being you I'd check what is it just for "knowing". I would get a $25-40 spare mobo and keep it in your locker. And have joy from this fantastic, very last of the kind 16:10 piece of history. OK, this is not what-if. It's actually how it looks like for me

Or are almost all of them bound to fail?

They are 11 years into service, and there are lots of them still running. If this is ACER, Samsung, ASUS etc. junk, it would be long long dead. Thinkpads were made exceptionally well; I still have my A31p, G41, T43 all in service. And all of them with dedicated GPU

[theterminator93]

I'll add my experiences as well. I've worked with maybe 30 T61s, all 14" widescreen NVS 140 models, and I don't recall any of them failing of the defect either. Most are dated October 2007.

Now, for the T61p with the FX570m? I've worked with five of them, and four have either died the nVidia death, or are showing signs of progressive failure. The only one that doesn't is the one that has a 2010 GPU. So I would guess the 570m is more failure prone... which makes sense, given it's the faster, hotter chip.

[ajkula66]

Back in the day, it was said, perhaps on the Lenovo site, that only a small, though nonetheless significant, number of these machines died. If that was true at the time, is it still true? Or are almost all of them bound to fail?

Well, Lenovo tried to downplay the issue for the longest time, until their backs were pushed against the wall. Then they introduced a "free planar swap" program almost out of the blue. How many systems actually failed, some of them repeatedly ? They know, or at least have a very good estimate. We never will.

Having said that, the youngest T61/p on the planet is a decade old. At this point in the game, *any* component on the board can fail beyond redemption, not just the GPU. I've just retired a perfectly-working 08/02 T61p which has been my main machine for the past two years and never gave me an iota of grief. Will it last for another week in the hands of its new owner, or another five years? No clue. But given the price range that these systems exchange hands for nowadays, it's not a huge deal for anyone involved.

[Raidriar]

Back in the day, it was said, perhaps on the Lenovo site, that only a small, though nonetheless significant, number of these machines died. If that was true at the time, is it still true? Or are almost all of them bound to fail?

Well, Lenovo tried to downplay the issue for the longest time, until their backs were pushed against the wall. Then they introduced a "free planar swap" program almost out of the blue. How many systems actually failed, some of them repeatedly ? They know, or at least have a very good estimate. We never will.

Having said that, the youngest T61/p on the planet is a decade old. At this point in the game, *any* component on the board can fail beyond redemption, not just the GPU. I've just retired a perfectly-working 08/02 T61p which has been my main machine for the past two years and never gave me an iota of grief. Will it last for another week in the hands of its new owner, or another five years? No clue. But given the price range that these systems exchange hands for nowadays, it's not a huge deal for anyone involved.

What have you replaced the T61p with?

[ajkula66]

What have you replaced the T61p with?

X200s.

I'll let you know how I like it once I've used it for a few weeks.

[olddog]

I think people are more conscious of temperature now than they used to be. I try to use Linux as much as possible, and my preferred flavour tends to include a temperature gauge as standard. Windows never does (IME), but recently I have been installing a temperature gauge (Coretemp) on my Windows machines.

I wonder whether both Lenovo and users under-estimated the degree of cooling required when pushing these (at the time) very powerful machines as fast as they would go. It's conceivable that most of the units that failed were being subjected to temperatures of 90 degrees Celsius or more for extended periods, and the graphics processors failed first because they had the least adequate cooling.

I am perhaps being optimistic here, but I hope that if I can keep the temperature within reasonable limits (say under 70 degrees) then I might avoid problems.

Here in the UK very few people have air conditioning at home (it's seldom necessary) but we have been having some very warm summers recently, and as a result my indoor temperatures have often been over 34 degrees C (about 93 F). The effect of this is to increase the CPU temperature by 12 degrees above normal, and in these circumstances it's not hard to push the CPU and GPU above their comfort zones.

Looking on the bright side, it at least provides an excuse to stop using the computer and have a cold beer.

[Screamer]

Keeping the Quadro FX 570M under 70 degrees celsius should be good enough, since the underfill that it is using is a Namics U8439-1.

That particular underfill has a glassification temperature of 70 degrees celsius, which means that it would completely lose most of its structural rigidity at that temperature. Then, the thermal stress that is placed on the underfill which is already very weak, would transfer to the bumps that connects the die to the graphics chip's substrate. As far as I know, that doesn't mean anything good. If those bumps were to crack, that would be it for the graphics chip.

Being optimistic? I'd rather say that is factual, considering that the glassification temperature is exactly what you mentioned. In any way, the best of luck to your abilities to keep that graphics chip below the 'danger zone' range.

[Raidriar]

In any way, the best of luck to your abilities to keep that graphics chip below the 'danger zone' range.

Aggressive undervolting and high quality thermal compound should assist.

[ajkula66]

Aggressive undervolting and high quality thermal compound should assist.

Yes. Definitely so.

Some of them are just doomed OOTB. My first T61p - bought brand new from Lenovo - was an overheating piece of garbage no matter what one did to it. It went through four planars in three years if I recall correctly. Lenovo ate all of that since there was a 5-year onsite warranty in place, but still...and the screen was horrendous, WUXGA SAmsung at its absolute worst.

I don't miss that one. At all.