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Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

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600X
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Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#1 Post by 600X » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:29 pm

Not a ThinkPad, but I hope this spells good news for the X13.

Link to PDF (announcement): https://news.lenovo.com/wp-content/uplo ... 13inch.pdf

Link to review: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Id ... 177.0.html

Link to website: https://www.lenovo.com/il/en/laptops/id ... 8IPS501380

And yes the S540-13API display is actually good, being high res (2560x1600), high contrast (1680:1) and covering sRGB.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#2 Post by Puppy » Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:49 am

Interesting. And the keyboard layout is also better than current ThinkPads have (clustered navigation keys).
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#3 Post by ZaZ » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:06 pm

Puppy wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:49 am
the keyboard layout is also better than current ThinkPads
but no stick.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#4 Post by dr_st » Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:05 pm

I disagree that that layout is better. It's garbage. And the keyboard itself looks like a Macbook keyboard (which means it's garbage). Current Thinkpads are much much better but also garbage. Everything is garbage except exactly what I want. :twisted:
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#5 Post by Puppy » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:42 am

dr_st wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:05 pm
I disagree that that layout is better. It's garbage.
Compared to old ThinkPads, yes. But the 6-row ThinkPad layout is extremely stupid as the Pg Dn/Up and Home/End keys are split to opposite sides of the keyboard. This keyboard layout is still better.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#6 Post by Puppy » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:45 am

ZaZ wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:06 pm
but no stick.
Oh yes, but expect it to be removed in the future as well. That's why I no longer rely on it.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#7 Post by w0qj » Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:11 pm

Wow, many thanks for your heads up!

1. If/when ThinkPad re-introduces 16:10 LCD screen into its X-series (X1 Carbon 14", or X1 Extreme 15"), or its T-series (14" LCD),
we may buy to show them that we mean it with our wallets, seriously want 16:10 LCD screen for better productivity.

16:10 is MUCH better for productivity.
We are still daily using our T410 with 14" 16:10 LCD screen, and it makes a BIG difference for working with MS Excel/Word/PowerPoint.

2. Let's hope that Lenovo is successful with its 13" model (mentioned above),
or else Lenovo might not even try to introduce this into its flagship ThinkPad lines!
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#8 Post by Puppy » Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:38 pm

w0qj wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:11 pm
16:10 is MUCH better for productivity.
And 3:2 is even better. I don't expect 16:10 in ThinkPads because the 16:9 low res/gamut crap Lenovo use is still cheaper and ... I don't care either as the ThinkPad keyboard layout is garbage anyway, worse than most of other laptops on the current market. I already learnt to live without the trackpoint as well.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#9 Post by dr_st » Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:46 pm

Puppy wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:42 am
But the 6-row ThinkPad layout is extremely stupid as the Pg Dn/Up and Home/End keys are split to opposite sides of the keyboard. This keyboard layout is still better.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this, as in the end it is all opinion, but seriously. This keyboard doesn't even have Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys! It's all Fn+arrows.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#10 Post by Puppy » Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:49 pm

dr_st wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:46 pm
It's all Fn+arrows.
Yes, but for me it is still far better than the stupid 6-row ThinkPad keyboard layout. There is even no [Fn]-ed + arrows option other brands (HP, MS Surface) have. Ergonomy last :(
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#11 Post by Puppy » Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:55 pm

Ironically even a 200 euro Umax "laptop" has much better keyboard layout than any ThinkPad.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#12 Post by exTPfan » Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:38 pm

Like it that Lenovo is pushing "4-side narrow bezel". Look forward to the day that "widescreen" becomes last years laptop.

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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#13 Post by TPFanatic » Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:06 pm

Puppy wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:55 pm
Ironically even a 200 euro Umax "laptop" has much better keyboard layout than any ThinkPad.
Just imagine the travel, or lack thereof, of those keys. :o
Puppy wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:38 pm
w0qj wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:11 pm
16:10 is MUCH better for productivity.
And 3:2 is even better.
Assuming the number of pixel rows increases. Resolution is more important that aspect ratio.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#14 Post by Ibthink » Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:05 pm

Puppy wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:49 pm
There is even no [Fn]-ed + arrows option other brands (HP, MS Surface) have.
Current ThinkPads do offer this functionality. FN + arrow left replicates the Home key, FN + arrow right replicates the End key function. Of course, there are still dedicated Home/End keys in the 6th keyrow as well, so users have the choice how they want to use it.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#15 Post by RealBlackStuff » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:41 am

One thing that many people may not realise: if you move the taskbar to the side (i.e. vertical), you gain a halfway decent amount of screen real estate.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#16 Post by Puppy » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:46 am

Ibthink wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:05 pm
Current ThinkPads do offer this functionality. FN + arrow left replicates the Home key, FN + arrow right replicates the End key function.
No, it isn't the same. Other vendors provides all four Fn + arrow keys combinations additionally to the four (clustered) navigation keys. Currently HP Envy 13 has the best keyboard layout.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#17 Post by pianowizard » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:22 am

w0qj wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:11 pm
16:10 is MUCH better for productivity.
We are still daily using our T410 with 14" 16:10 LCD screen, and it makes a BIG difference for working with MS Excel/Word/PowerPoint.
I assume your T410 is 1440x900. How could that be better than 1920x1080 for MS Office applications? Is this because you have poor vision, so on a 14" 1920x1080 screen you would have to scale things up and the effective resolution would be worse than 1440x900?

TPFanatic wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:06 pm
Puppy wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:38 pm
And 3:2 is even better.
Assuming the number of pixel rows increases. Resolution is more important that aspect ratio.
Puppy was probably thinking of the classic resolutions, in which case 3:2 is clearly the best among the three widescreen aspect ratios, since 1920x1280 > 1920x1200 > 1920x1080. But those days when 16:9 laptops maxed out at FHD are long gone. We now have 16:9 laptops with 2560x1440 or 3840x2160 for a wide range of screen sizes, and also a few with less common resolutions like 3200x1800 and 2880x1660. That's why I no longer whine about 16:9 laptops. Yes, I realize that these have such high pixel densities that most users would need to scale up, making the effective resolutions closer to FHD, but for me, the 209.8 DPI of a 14" 2560x1440 screen is low enough that I wouldn't need to scale, as it is actually lower than my Surface 3's 213.7 DPI. If I ever bought a conventional laptop again (i.e. not a detachable or convertible), I would likely get a 14-incher with 2560x1440; there are already quite a few Thinkpads, Latitudes and Elitebooks to choose from. QHD is a great resolution for mid-sized laptops.

BTW as you can see
here
, Lenovo is calling 2560x1600 "QHD". Ridiculous! The correct acronym should be WQXGA, though that's probably less marketable.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#18 Post by dr_st » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:56 am

pianowizard wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:22 am
I assume your T410 is 1440x900. How could that be better than 1920x1080 for MS Office applications? Is this because you have poor vision, so on a 14" 1920x1080 screen you would have to scale things up and the effective resolution would be worse than 1440x900?
It's not about poor vision. Office applications (except Excel and maybe Project) are naturally built to scale to the physical dimensions of the screen regardless of resolution. Viewing 2 pages side by side is better suited to 8:5 than to 16:9. And it's even better suited to 3:2 and 4:3.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#19 Post by unixed » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:05 am

TPFanatic wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:06 pm
Resolution is more important that aspect ratio.
Higher resolution can make a lower aspect ratio screen more usable, it does not alter the deficiencies of 16:9 relative to the higher aspect ratios.

You can calculate the ratio of screen area to lid area (take a look at the X61), the horizontal screen bezel width (the top and bottom bezel bands) to vertical screen size ratio, the area to perimeter ratio etc. for 4:3 through to 16:9. If you work on more than a laptop, i.e. it is next to a book, pencil and paper, soldering iron, motherboard, another laptop ... you want to minimize the lateral footprint while for programming etc. you want to maximize vertical screen size too, not just the resolution.

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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#20 Post by Puppy » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:51 pm

Oh yes, I would hate 14" 1920x1080 because the resolution is too low (156 PPI). Currently the 13" 3:2 2160 x 1440 (200 PPI) is perfect. I simply find the 16:9 form factor stupid, wide and bulky. I need vertical resolution.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#21 Post by exTPfan » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:22 pm

Three comments.

Putting the task bar at left increases the vertical space only by a very small amount while decreasing the area.

For people with 20/20 vision, going beyond about 140 dpi with the laptop at normal distance doesn't help. 20/20 is considered normal, but many, especially younger, people have significantly better vision, while many, especially older, have worse.

The figures below show that the X60/X61 is still the record holder among Thinkpads for screen area/laptop area (82% vs 69% for the T25)

Ratio of screen area to that of laptop:
T60/T61 (4:3) 14.1in 77%
T60/T61 (4:3) 15in 78%
X60/X61 (4:3) 82%
--------------------------------------
MS Surface Laptop (3:2) 79%
Matebook X (3:2) 83%.
Matebook X Pro (3:2) claims 91%
-----------------------------------------------
X220 (16:9) 12.5in 69%
T25 (16:9) 14in 69%
T450s (16:9) 14in 72%
X1Carbon 2018. (16:9) 14in 77%
X1Extreme 2018 (16:9) 15.6in 76%
T520 (16:9) 15.6in 73%
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#22 Post by bgx » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:50 am

In case you wonder, the panel is by the chinese company TCL.

Hope this is a new trend!
Indeed, I think they could fit 16:10 panel in every of their current lineup, getting more screen real estate (i prefer screen than plastic, no matter the resolution!).
If we need to focus on screen coverage for that, good for me.

BTW, I have 2560*1440 screen, and it is clearly too narrow, this is my main complain about my machine (and also too narrow in portrait).
While 16:10 is not the best, it would be the first step in the right direction for the past 10 years of thinkpads.

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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#23 Post by unixed » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:08 am

bgx wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:50 am
In case you wonder, the panel is by the chinese company TCL.
Do you know which panel exactly or any other details? Probably eDP, but what B/L arrangement, etc? A datasheet would be useful.
Unfortunately even knowing the panel model may not make obtaining the panel or its datasheet possible, as is the case with the LG Gram 17.

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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#24 Post by bgx » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:34 am

From Notebookcheck review:

"CSOT T3 MND307DA1-2"

didnt find occurence of the panel itself (exept from this review), but
CSOT gives us e.g.:
https://www.oled-info.com/csot-oled

China Star Optoelectronics Technology (CSOT, also called Shenzhen Huaxing Photoelectric Technology) is a China based display producer (owned by TCL, Century Science & Technology Investment and Samsung Display).

Lenovo is based in Shenzhen as well if i recall.

Interestingly, they are also in OLED, so we can hope for some OLED panel in the future.

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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#25 Post by pianowizard » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:31 pm

exTPfan wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:22 pm
For people with 20/20 vision, going beyond about 140 dpi with the laptop at normal distance doesn't help.
You're thinking of visual acuity, which is the ability to resolve two closely spaced points or to visualize individual pixels; Apple explained this at great length when introducing "Retina" displays. You're correct that at normal laptop viewing distances, most users probably can't resolve pixels at or above ~140 dpi, so if the goal is merely to ensure that letters and curves look smooth, going above 140 dpi is pointless.

But I was talking about increasing pixel count to enable more information to be displayed ("real estate"). Let's consider one laptop with 14.0" 1280x720, and another with 14.0" 2560x1440. If both laptops use the default 100% scaling of the operating system and of all apps, then the higher-res laptop can display 4 times as many words as the lower-res laptop, with each word constructed using the same number of pixels on both laptop screens. Productivity is increased, because the user won't need to scroll as much, and can tile more windows on the screen.
dr_st wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:56 am
It's not about poor vision.
Of course vision is one of the factors affecting how useful a screen of a certain size and res is to the user. I'll again use the above example, where the 14.0" 2560x1440 screen is 209.8 dpi. If the user finds text and icons too small so s/he scales everything to 200%, then this screen would display just as much information as the 14.0" 1280x720 screen, and there would be no productivity gain.
dr_st wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:56 am
Office applications (except Excel and maybe Project) are naturally built to scale to the physical dimensions of the screen regardless of resolution. Viewing 2 pages side by side is better suited to 8:5 than to 16:9. And it's even better suited to 3:2 and 4:3.
I agree that when Microsoft and others designed their office apps, they likely expected the user to maximize the app's window, and to view either just 1 page at a time or 2 pages side by side. But when the screen resolution is sufficiently high, we have so much real estate that we can easily shrink each app's window so that we can see multiple windows at once, and/or display more than 2 pages within the office app. For example, if I maximize an MS Office window on a 2560x1440 screen, I can display 3 pages at 100% scaling. If I'm happy with seeing just 2 pages, I can make that window narrower, and open another window next to it.
Puppy wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:51 pm
Oh yes, I would hate 14" 1920x1080 because the resolution is too low (156 PPI). Currently the 13" 3:2 2160 x 1440 (200 PPI) is perfect. I simply find the 16:9 form factor stupid, wide and bulky. I need vertical resolution.
Again, resolution matters too, since 3840x2160 has more vertical resolution than 2160x1440, 2560x1440 has more than 1920x1280, etc. It all depends on whether and how you scale.

Also, the bulkiness issue of 16:9 laptops has been partly mitigated by having smaller bezels, e.g. the current Thinkpad X1 Carbon is 323 mm wide, vs. the T410's 335.5 mm, even though the latter's 16:10 screen was actually slightly narrower than the X1 Carbon's 16:9 screen.
bgx wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:50 am
BTW, I have 2560*1440 screen, and it is clearly too narrow
That's because you scale things up too much.

The first time I used 15.4" 1920x1200 in around 2006 I was shocked by how small things appeared at 147.0 dpi, so for a while I used that laptop at 1280x800. But over time I got increasingly comfortable viewing small text, and can now easily handle ~210 dpi without adjusting Windows' or the apps' scaling. And I did this despite my below-average vision. All it took was lots of practice, over many years. People with better vision than I can probably train themselves to tolerate 250 dpi or more at default scaling, e.g. 17.3" 3840x2160 (254.7 dpi) and 11.6" 2560x1440 (253.2 dpi).
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#26 Post by bgx » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:15 pm

tell me in what world having a plasticy bezel is better than having actual pixel?

tell me in what world A4 paper are nicely displayed on 16:9.

no world.

You like 16:9 crap? fine for you.
Dont try to explain to others they are idiots and should embrass 16:9 when all we try to do is work around this [censored].

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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#27 Post by TPFanatic » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:36 pm

So the popular opinion is basically 1024x768 is more usable than ANY 16:9, so I am so much more productive on my 12 year old X60 with its GLORIOUS 8) square 8) no bezel 8) 150 nit XGA, and even my 20 year old Hitachi Visiondesk with its GLORIOUS 8) square 8) VGA 800x600, HELL even my TI-84 graphing calculator with its
2.8" 320x240 -> 4:3 <-display is more usable than any BLASPHEMOUS :x 16:9 :x even :x 2560x1440 :x is 16:9 TRASH

Right guys? :D
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lenovo T520 i7 2720qm 8GB FHD, lenovo T420s i5 3320m 8GB QHD, lenovo T430 i5 3320m 8GB FHD, lenovo T430 i5 3320m 8GB HD+ w/ Optimus, lenovo S1 Yoga i7 4600u 8GB FHD
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#28 Post by dr_st » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:30 am

bgx wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:15 pm
You like 16:9 crap? fine for you.
Dont try to explain to others they are idiots and should embrass 16:9 when all we try to do is work around this [censored].
It's not about others being idiots. It's about metrics. Pianowizard, which I conclude from the various discussions we've had on the forums over the years, is what some people call a "horizontally organized" person, who prioritizes desktop space over everything else. In computer screens where the pixel is the basic unit, desktop space = resolution, so to him it's all about increasing it, and aspect ratio matters not. If you give him a 4:3 screen with 8000x6000 pixels, I'm sure he would prefer that. :)
pianowizard wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:31 pm
The first time I used 15.4" 1920x1200 in around 2006 I was shocked by how small things appeared at 147.0 dpi, so for a while I used that laptop at 1280x800. But over time I got increasingly comfortable viewing small text, and can now easily handle ~210 dpi without adjusting Windows' or the apps' scaling. And I did this despite my below-average vision. All it took was lots of practice, over many years. People with better vision than I can probably train themselves to tolerate 250 dpi or more at default scaling, e.g. 17.3" 3840x2160 (254.7 dpi) and 11.6" 2560x1440 (253.2 dpi).
So essentially you do say that it's not really about how good one's eyesight is, since you claim your eyesight to be below average, and my eyesight has been consistently (*knock-on-wood*) rated above average, and I know that I would not feel comfortable with something like 1440p on 14" at 100% scaling in Windows. I am rather comfortable with 1920x1080, yes.

I don't know how you do it. Maybe your definition of "average" eyesight differs from the accepted scale. Maybe you have some rare filters or processors in your visual system that most people don't have, and so you adapt better to consistently smaller text and visual elements. Maybe you squint too much or sit too close to the screen. Maybe it really is a matter of 'lots of practice over many years'. If it's the latter case, however, I am not sure that I would want to invest into this kind of practice, and honestly, I can't see why anyone else would either. The productivity lost during those 'many years' of practice would hardly ever be regained by using the ultra-high-DPI-ultra-small-print screen later on, at least for most of us.

I agree that within some reasonable bounds it is not difficult to adjust and in fact such an adjustment can be rather quick and painless (unless one is just stubborn-as-heck, never-change-a-single-thing type of person). Case in point: when I got my first SXGA+ 15" laptop, I was thinking that it was the ideal DPI for me, and smaller would be difficult. But then it took almost no time to adjust to 14" SXGA+ / 15" UXGA, and later on as soon as I got my first 14" FHD laptop, I decided to use it at 100% scaling, and in merely a few days was comfortable with it. However, spending years of "getting used to" just so I can say that I am comfortable with your level of DPI? No, thanks. :) It wouldn't even boost my productivity all that much, given my usage / organization patterns. I'd rather spend this time practicing something else, like, I dunno, playing the piano (which you clearly also can identify with). :D
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#29 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:01 am

My take on DPI is any user should be able to adapt to any DPI or scale, with personal preference and its impact on DPI-choice varying betwen users. The screen that I currently own and am most productive on is a 14" 2560x1440, especially as it's combined with a venerable T420. Like Pianowizard I used to think 15.4" 1920x1200 made everything tiny - before that, I thought 15" 1600x1200 made everything tiny! Now they look huge. The screen I most want to try out next is a 14" 4K, like what the T480 can get modded with, or one of those X210 with their crazy screen mods the likes of 3000x2000. I've had no trouble using 1920x1080 on a 12" Yoga either. I'm confident with a high DPI T480-T25 hybrid or X210, I'd take over the world.
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Re: Lenovo has *FINALLY* returned to 16:10

#30 Post by Puppy » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:28 pm

pianowizard wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:31 pm
Also, the bulkiness issue of 16:9 laptops has been partly mitigated by having smaller bezels
That's true but there is another issue, narrow keyboards. That's what I like on ThinkPad X31 or the MateBook 13, the keyboard is full width. No useless "landing stripes" on sides and "microkeyboard" in the middle. Check Dell XPS 15 for instance, it looks like they have used wrong keyboard borrowed from a 13" model :D
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