COVID-19 and other medical conspiracies (split discussion)

[RealBlackStuff]

I put this in my signature:
Covid-19: Mask it or casket.

[dingdong]

^ Some body/bodies' other point of view here, here and here.

[dr_st]

^ Some body/bodies' other point of view here, here and here.

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to any "points of view" that start with "The US Medical System And CDC Murdered 100,000+".

Masks do help reduce transmission if used correctly. They alone are insufficient, and if used incorrectly can cause harm by creating a false sense of security. First and foremost, a sick person wearing a mask is far less likely to spread the virus to others by breathing. Can still spread by touching others or surfaces, and this is where washing hands, sterilizing surfaces and other hygiene measures come into play.

[ajkula66]

Agreed, protect yourself if you are vulnerable, to include retiring if you won't risk getting infected at work. And don't be stupid about things.

Sadly, not everyone can afford to retire "here and now"...your advice does make perfect sense though.

Admittedly that is too much to ask of the vast majority of people here in the US.

Six months from now, C-19 will be the least of our problems...but the same "vast majority" doesn't seem to care about the iceberg that this Titanic is headed for...

[dingdong]

^ Some body/bodies' other point of view here, here and here.

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to any "points of view" that start with "The US Medical System And CDC Murdered 100,000+".

Oops?

[dr_st]

I have limited trust for this source. No, not because it's "far-right" or whatever they call it, but because I doubt their data. For example, the chart at 0:22, which shows death rate by HCQ use, includes Israel as an example of countries that use HCQ, whereas I found no evidence that it was actually widely used in Israel. Just because it wasn't banned doesn't mean it was used. Maybe I didn't look enough?

[mpcook]

The death rates in the chart in this video are very different from the Johns Hopkins University so it depends on what source you might believe. I put a bit more stock in JHU. Aside from the inaccurate rates quoted in the video, using country data to determine the validity of an individual treatment protocol is poor research design and analysis, it falls prey to the ecological fallacy. Sorry if science intrudes into the situation. In reviewing the major medical studies on hydroxychloroquine as a treatment, the evidence does not support a positive impact.

[ajkula66]

In reviewing the major medical studies on hydroxychloroquine as a treatment, the evidence does not support a positive impact.

There have been "major medical studies" on HCQ ? News to me. You're not talking about the garbage that The Lancet had to retract, are you ?

Care to share link or two for those studies ?

[mpcook]

In reviewing the major medical studies on hydroxychloroquine as a treatment, the evidence does not support a positive impact.

There have been "major medical studies" on HCQ ? News to me. You're not talking about the garbage that The Lancet had to retract, are you ?

Care to share link or two for those studies ?

There have been a handful of properly designed experimental studies.

[ajkula66]

There have been a handful of properly designed experimental studies.

I haven't seen one yet, and it's not like I haven't been paying attention. That's why I asked for the links.

[exTPfan]

Doesn't work. Even Trump officials are saying that it's time to move on. The Wikipedia article on Hydroxychloroquine contains links to studies. What works is masks and physical distancing. (Thanks cadillacmike).

[cadillacmike68]

It's PHYSICAL distancing, not social distancing. I can be physically 1 foot from someone and not know any of their Anti-social media info.

[mpcook]

I haven't kept track of citations, but if you google this topic, you will come up with a bunch of links and you can evaluate based on proper experimental design and analysis.

Here is one. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638 . Here is another that is awaiting peer review but looks to be well-done and is promising. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... l.pdf+html . This one was cluster-randomized, but still has a good deal of statistical power and proper controls.

Still waiting for a properly designed study that shows a significant positive impact of HCQ on Covid-19, not due to chance. I have spent way too much time already arguing experimental design and statistical analysis techniques on a website full of experts on conspiracy theories who don't believe in randomization, vaccination, and double blind design. (No, not this forum, another one which will remain nameless.)

And for those who say, well, why not, what have I to lose? Several side effects of this drug are potentially severe, depending on dose and duration of administration, so unless you know it works, don't do it. Yes, there are people who have taken it for years with few ill effects, but then there are also others who get taken off it due to the side effects and moved to a different treatment (for arthritis, lupus, etc.).

So let's wait for confirmation and replication.

[ajkula66]

Doesn't work. Even Trump officials are saying that it's time to move on. The Wikipedia article on Hydroxychloroquine contains links to studies. What works is masks and social distancing.

I wouldn't trust these officials and/or wikipedia for something as important, but to each their own.

Distancing does work, that much is obvious.

[dr_st]

Proper studies with conclusive results take time. The corona crisis is already getting the scientific community to advance at a crazy, previously unheard of, pace.

Last I read about HCQ is that the earlier studies were overly optimistic, and due to flaws in methodology, and fears of side-effects, a warning was issued. Later on, the warning was receded, studies resumed, and currently some are in progress.

[ajkula66]

And for those who say, well, why not, what have I to lose?

You do realize that a bunch of medical professionals DID choose HCQ for treating themselves when this bug bit them, right ? NEJM is pretty much pushing "vaccine is the only way out" stance nowadays so I wouldn't expect them to endorse anything else.

It doesn't really matter. As I've said before, C-19 will be the least of our problems six months from now.

[mpcook]

And for those who say, well, why not, what have I to lose?

You do realize that a bunch of medical professionals DID choose HCQ for treating themselves when this bug bit them, right ? NEJM is pretty much pushing "vaccine is the only way out" stance nowadays so I wouldn't expect them to endorse anything else.

It doesn't really matter. As I've said before, C-19 will be the least of our problems six months from now.

Having a medical degree doesn't make someone smart. For example, there's the one who's into alien DNA and demon semen that Trump retweeted. Yes, we have many more significant issues than just this insidious virus.

[ajkula66]

Having a medical degree doesn't make someone smart.

Having *any* type of degree doesn't make someone smart. Speaking from personal experience...

For example, there's the one who's into alien DNA and demon semen that Trump retweeted.

I have no idea who you're referring to but I don't follow Twitter so there's that...

Yes, we have many more significant issues than just this insidious virus.

Indeed. Once the virus has subsided we'll be facing an exceptionally ugly reality that has sneaked under the darkness of the pandemic while we were not paying attention.

[mpcook]

For example, there's the one who's into alien DNA and demon semen that Trump retweeted.

I have no idea who you're referring to but I don't follow Twitter so there's that...

Yeah, I don't do twitter either, this was covered at a Presidential press conference, she was claiming that masks aren’t necessary to prevent the spread of coronavirus and promotes hydroxychloroquine as a cure, plus some views on alien DNA and sex with demons.

https://fox5sandiego.com/news/coronavir ... h-spirits/

[dingdong]

HCQ Deep Dive on Twitter

Fauci Approved Chloroquine, Hydroxychloroquine 15 Years Ago to Cure Coronaviruses

EDIT: Effectiveness of Hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19 disease: A done and dusted situation?

[TonyJZX]

"Smart" is such a vague word.

I consider Ben Carson to be one of the finest neurosurgeons to have ever lived. Would I trust him to look into your skull? Sure.

Would I ever want to listen to him speak on any topic excluding his specialty? No.

There's a lot of doctors who spout nonsense... Rand and Ron Paul for example. That doesnt make them bad doctors.

I consider Fauci one of the finest doctors too. However the difference I would be interested in hearing his opinion on multiple topics... he seems to be a really interesting character and personality.

Further I dont think Fauci has a particular agenda outside of his hippocratic oath. If only one could say that about other medical professionals.

And that's the thing... people say listen to the specialists, the scientists, the medical professionals... I trust in my ability to work out which people are worth listening to and which arent.

Its certainly isnt about hydroxychloroquine or 'bleach' or 'strong UV rays'... or less testing = less case = less deaths... or cancelled national testing because its going to hit certain states that lean a particular way... how's that ethical?

[mpcook]

HCQ Deep Dive on Twitter

Fauci Approved Chloroquine, Hydroxychloroquine 15 Years Ago to Cure Coronaviruses

EDIT: Effectiveness of Hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19 disease: A done and dusted situation?

First gummibear737 on twitter is not a reputable source. Sorry.

Did you read the studies the latter two items are based upon?

The second item, the "truepundit" article claiming Dr. Fauci is covering up HCQ as a preventative/cure is based on a study which was conducted by bathing African green monkey kidney cells with chloroquine. Results: evidence that additional research should be done, maybe eventually with humans (as is being done with HCQ).

The last study is actually a letter to the editor, discussing data from another non-randomized, non-doubleblind study, which conflicts with results from randomized trials. Okay, we are doing controlled experiments now. So far, as these authors state, "Although unmeasured confounding remains the most likely explanation for the discrepancies, a robust meta-analysis is still lacking and we question whether hydroxychloroquine should be further tested." I agree with them, a meta-analysis would be a good idea before we throw more money at this.

[dingdong]

I consider Fauci one of the finest doctors too. ...

Further I dont think Fauci has a particular agenda outside of his hippocratic oath. ...

I find your faith in Fauci disturbing.

See also this and this 2007 book which documents the virus frauds preceding Covid in which Fauci is mentioned by name.

His wife is NIH Chief of Bioethics, i.e. she calls the shots on exceptions to normal drug and vaccine testing.

I'm sure there's nothing to see there either.

[TonyJZX]

looks like russian conservative republican nonsense

why would you post a 300+ Page book? Am I supposed to read it all to support your claim? how does that work? who in their right mind would even delve into a random book some kook posted?

i'm not interested in his ex wife or wife... i've been married three times and have had various relationships... i'm not going to run cover for these people.

In the same way I dont think Bill Gates is all 100% onboard I also dont think a guy worth $85 bn really gives a flying crap about inserting tracking chips into Americans... this is the same level of nonsense as the past Soros conspiracies people spout on about here.

[dr_st]

Russian, conservative, republican and Soros conspiracies in one post. Wow.

But I guess this Virus mania book is even weirder. Any book that starts with "the deadly effects of AIDS, Ebola and Polio have never been proven" should be mandatory reading.

[dingdong]

@TonyJZX

Something shorter: a review?

[mpcook]

@TonyJZX

Something shorter: a review?

The claim that viruses are not disease-causing and that "these alleged contagious viruses are, in fact, particles produced by the cells themselves as a consequence of certain stress factors such as drugs."

Yes, this is "russian conservative republican Soros Gates nonsense"!

[dingdong]

But I guess this Virus mania book is even weirder. Any book that starts with "the deadly effects of AIDS, Ebola and Polio have never been proven" should be mandatory reading.

I'm more interested in whether anybody named in the book filed a complaint against the authors and if so about its issue.

[dingdong]

Sorry, but I don't subscribe to any "points of view" that start with "The US Medical System And CDC Murdered 100,000+".

From the chief of the CDC himself: see here and here (a short video related to the first link).

Got Questions? Ask CDC.

[dingdong]

A follow-up answer to the OP's question: reading "Resisting Illegitimate Authority" by Bruce E. Levine (a book of 240 pages) and "The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude" by Étienne de la Boétie (a book of 82 pages)