Most Luxurious IBM Era Thinkpad

[hlaj]

I'm looking for what people consider the most special or luxurious thinkpad
from the IBM era.

A little about my computing needs: I've been doing fine with a pentium II toshiba laptop
with 160Mb ram for about thirteen years. I just use cli apps and the linux framebuffer
when necessary. My computer sits on my desk except the few times a year that I go
travelling or give a presentation, so portability and battery life are essentially
irrelevant. I like the way the scissors switch keys feel to type on, and I don't
long for more travel in keystrokes. Nearly any dedicated graphics card
or special IPS screen would be completely wasted on me and screen size is also
unimportant. As far as screen resolution, my eyesight wasn't what it was so the less
the better. I also care about having low noise and cool temperatures, but I think
the PII and PIII era laptops didn't have cooling problems although I'm not opposed
to a P4 or later processor. I do need the IA32/i386 architecture for programs I run.

Recently my harddrive died and I found out it would cost $40 to replace it (it was 4Gb and
ran at 4200 rpm). Since then I've been running my computer off a USB flash drive, but
the connector is USB 1.1...

Instead of replacing just the drive, I thought I would luxuriate
by replacing my computer with the most luxurious IBM laptop of that era for a few
dollars to a few hundred dollars more. Since it's hard to test out a lot of
old Thinkpads, I was wondering if anyone had some good suggestions.

I've considered the transnote, although I have no need for the note taking function or a
tablet. I've also considered the 240 series and S30/31.

I'm thinking also about the 660 and 770 series. Would any of these qualify as most luxurious
given my needs? Any other suggestions?

[Neil]

My vote for most luxurious ThinkPad would have to go to the A31p, but that's more than you need. Still the three spindle design and UXGA flexview screen is a very versatile machine.
I would say the 600X is the most solid, durable of the slim smaller sized PII era ThinkPads. And, it's keyboard had the best feel of most any I've ever used. I've used a 600X up until just earlier this year, when I finally let it go and moved up to more modern hardware.
Then in the PIII class ThinkPads, my favorite would be a T23. But we might just be getting into a more powerful machines than you are looking for here as well.

[emtee3511]

You don't have to spend $40 for a new HDD -- check out this post, which references 15gb IDE Drives for $12.99 with free shipping

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=101272

[RealBlackStuff]

Shipping it to OP's home in Munich, Germany might cost more than the HD itself...
I concur that a T23 with PIII CPU is a good contender for OP's needs.
But nowadays a T60 is quite affordable, and miles ahead of the technology of his last Thinkpad.
One step back, and an R52 with Intel graphics and 15" XGA would more than cover even today's requirements.
It's a great desktop alternative and widely available for an attractive price.

[hlaj]

You don't have to spend $40 for a new HDD -- check out this post, which references 15gb IDE Drives for $12.99 with free shipping

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=101272

Thank you very much for that. I had no idea they could be had so cheaply.

[hlaj]

My vote for most luxurious ThinkPad would have to go to the A31p, but that's more than you need. Still the three spindle design and UXGA flexview screen is a very versatile machine.
I would say the 600X is the most solid, durable of the slim smaller sized PII era ThinkPads. And, it's keyboard had the best feel of most any I've ever used. I've used a 600X up until just earlier this year, when I finally let it go and moved up to more modern hardware.
Then in the PIII class ThinkPads, my favorite would be a T23. But we might just be getting into a more powerful machines than you are looking for here as well.

I think it is my fault for not being clear in asking my question. And perhaps also it is not clear in my own mind.
To me the native fonts for a UXGA screen would be unreadable, but perhaps there is a way of enlarging them
without sacrificing clarity?

Thank you also for your reply and your suggestions. I will definitely consider the 600x and T23.
Perhaps I should also clarify what I mean by luxurious. I just mean it in it's most bland sense, where the thinkpad
was engineered for the luxury of some business executives and priced accordingly at the time.

[hlaj]

Shipping it to OP's home in Munich, Germany might cost more than the HD itself...
I concur that a T23 with PIII CPU is a good contender for OP's needs.
But nowadays a T60 is quite affordable, and miles ahead of the technology of his last Thinkpad.
One step back, and an R52 with Intel graphics and 15" XGA would more than cover even today's requirements.
It's a great desktop alternative and widely available for an attractive price.

I am quite curious about the T60 since many people elsewhere in this forum have considered it the pinnacle of
thinkpads ever produced, and also there is coreboot (coreboot.org) available for it. Even though it has more than
10 times the power I require, perhaps it would be the best choice given the relatively small difference in price.

The R52 I had not heard about, and I thank you for the suggestion!

[rumbero]

I am quite curious about the T60 since many people elsewhere in this forum have considered it the pinnacle of
thinkpads ever produced, and also there is coreboot (coreboot.org) available for it. Even though it has more than
10 times the power I require, perhaps it would be the best choice given the relatively small difference in price.

To tell the truth, as much as i fancy older Thinkpad generations for their design value, for daily usage i really wouldn't want to bother anymore with any Thinkpad older than the T60. Unless you are a die hard vintage Thinkpad collector, anything older than a T60 should be considered obsolete by today's standards. The T60 marks the border to current technical standards, as it is still up to date enough to not require hunting for vintage replacement parts. This is actually a huge plus for any serious long term use of any such older machine!

One of the most annoying weaknesses of older Thinkpads used to be flexing, but which has been successfully eliminated by the introduction of a roll cage since the T60 generation. Furthermore, a T60 finally supports and uses standard SATA hard disks out of the box, effectively enabling the use of almost any current aftermarket SATA hard disk with decent storage volumes, including all the SSD goodness (if one can afford it). Other than that, it supports up to 3GB of RAM, which is only topped by the T61's 8GB RAM capability. And if you find things like virtualization and 64bit support useful, than there are even Core2Duo CPU options at your disposal.

If i were you, i'd definitely check out a good T60 with a fine IPS SXGA+ screen or even an even more capable T61 (but do avoid nVIDIA based units like the plague). Based on your humble computing power requirements, you will be well off with one of these for many years to come.

Assuming that you know German since you are located in Munich, Germany, you might want also register at the German site thinkpad-forum.de for discussion in German language. I am also quite active there, using the very same member name as i am known here over there. The technical expertise level in the German forum has a very high standard, and the members are generally very friendly and helpful. It also has an internal market place, where you can easily find anything Thinkpad related you might ever need.

[hlaj]

Thank you very much rumbero for your advice and opinions.
I am newly researching thinkpads as I'm sure you can tell by the imprecision of my questions and didn't know about the German forum.

I have had the opportunity to handle a colleagues T60 and
I think you are right about it's superiority (most of which is wasted on me). I hadn't considered replacement parts and I wonder if the T60 itself in 5 years time won't also have the status of the older thinkpads as far as replacement parts go.
One area of concern I have is the heat/noise issues of the T60. Is it true that the ones with intel graphics are less prone to this? I know this is fixed in the T61, but then coreboot would not be readily available and coreboot would be my main reason for owning a T60 vs. simply repairing my current laptop.

I am still somewhat curious about my original question though which I think was too confusing. I should rephrase it to split it into two questions:

1.) Which IBM era thinkpads were engineered for the luxury
of business executives, and of these which was the most
luxurious?

I know for example that the x40 was one. I know of the lenovo era that the x300/301 was another. Perhaps the transnote too. Are there others?

2.) Of these luxurious thinkpads, which might be most suitable to me?

I am curious since these seem to cost used roughly 2-5x what I thought the harddrive would cost to replace. For the cost of about three harddrives, it tickles me to think I could own a thinkpad that was once considered a great luxury for some business executive.

[rumbero]

One area of concern I have is the heat/noise issues of the T60. Is it true that the ones with intel graphics are less prone to this? I know this is fixed in the T61, but then coreboot would not be readily available and coreboot would be my main reason for owning a T60 vs. simply repairing my current laptop.

The heat/noise issues of the T60 are mostly due to the dedicated GPU's heat emissions in combination with a rather noisy fan. A possible fix consists in using a T61 or even T500 fan unit in the T60, as these are much less noisy. There are some very detailed technical threads about this particular issue on the German Thinkpad forum website.

Additionally, avoiding any dedicated GPU in general definitely helps considerably to prevent heat issues and its noisy consequences. At least for the T61 the Intel X3100 graphics are plenty enough for normal tasks including Youtube video watching, but the Intel graphics of the T60 should be plenty enough for your needs also. I always took great care to avoid any such dedicated GPU for exactly this noise prevention reason when i build my T61+ Frankenpads.

Regarding your other questions about a "luxurious" Thinkpad model, i guess someone else would be much more competent in answering these. For a general overview, you might want to check out the model descriptions in the "ThinkPad Modelle & Zubehör" section of the German thinkpad-wiki.org website, which is also closely associated to the already mentioned German Thinkpad forum.

[ajkula66]

TransNote is a fabulous machine, and would definitely fit in the "luxurious" and "business type" classes.

Given that you have no need for high/resolution/fast CPU/etc. it would definitely be a cool item to own and use. But it is a vintage unit, that will struggle with any OS newer than W2K.

Even in this day and age, A31p is an surprisingly usable machine for everything apart from gaming and streaming video. And it was "priced right" at close to $4K when initially offered. Hands down, the most upgradeable ThinkPad ever in my book. Now, if you can't handle UXGA resolution, maybe one of its higher-end A31 cousins with lower resolution would do the trick.

Lenovo-era T60/61 and Z60/61 units are fine pieces of engineering as well.

[pianowizard]

The definition o f "luxury" from Dictionary.com:

"a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity"

I can recall only one Thinkpad that really satisfied this defintion, a $5,000 special-edition model that came with a fancy leather cover: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/ ... nniversary

[hlaj]

The definition o f "luxury" from Dictionary.com:

"a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity"

I can recall only one Thinkpad that really satisfied this defintion, a $5,000 special-edition model that came with a fancy leather cover: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/ ... nniversary

I agree completely that this $5,000 thinkpad certainly qualifies as a luxurious and arguably the most luxurious lenovo era thinkpad ever made if only for its leather cover and service policy.

However, from the wikipedia article on luxury goods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_good) there seems to be a more inclusive definition of luxury as well as room for disagreement. It seems to have various meanings in various contexts. From that article different dimensions such as price, the status conferred on the holder, quality, the tendency to consume it as income increases and so on have variable significance. In one sense, the sense of "marked by better-quality components and materials, solid construction, stylish appearance, increased durability, better performance, advanced features..." every thinkpad would be considered to be a luxury.

So, if you will, I hope you will permit me to define luxury in terms of original price and its marketing as such.

[hlaj]

Now, if you can't handle UXGA resolution, maybe one of its higher-end A31 cousins with lower resolution would do the trick.

Lenovo-era T60/61 and Z60/61 units are fine pieces of engineering as well.

Another vote for the A31 series
Having never handled one, I was wondering if you or someone who uses one could describe the subjective experience of using one compared to for example the ?60 series laptops?

But it is a vintage unit, that will struggle with any OS newer than W2K.

Even in this day and age, A31p is an surprisingly usable machine for everything apart from gaming and streaming video.

I do understand what you mean. It seems that with every increase in hardware power, the windows operating system hardware requirements increase proportionally.

On the other hand, the hardware needs for old unix fogeys like me haven't changed. You might be surprised to learn that I have downloaded (youtube-dl python script) and watched (mplayer) high-quality youtube videos on my PII era laptop running the latest versions of linux and its userland. Which is just to say that in my case I am very flexible about the hardware I need: anything from a PII with 64Mb of RAM to the present day's hardware would work and so I'm sure the A31p is much more than adequate for anything I could possibly want.

[pianowizard]

So, if you will, I hope you will permit me to define luxury in terms of original price and its marketing as such.

"Original price" wouldn't be a good criterion because laptops have been getting cheaper over time. Back in the early 1990s, even the crappiest laptops were close to $2K, whereas now you can get a high-end laptop for well below that. "Marketing" would be a more reasonable way to define "luxury". So, you want to buy a Thinkpad that IBM marketed as being their most high-end models. The oldest that you should consider is the 770Z, with 366MHz Pentium II, up to 320MB of RAM, and either 14.1" 1024x768 or 13.7" 1280x1024. Back in 1999, IBM definitely marketed it as their very top Thinkpad -- see http://web.archive.org/web/199905081444 ... /thinkpad/. For newer laptops, the T Series models with the suffix "p" were marketed as being the highest-end, and the T43p (which was the last from the IBM era) would be my recommendation. The T41p and T42p were also highest-end, but their failure rates are so high that you should avoid them.

The A Series was marketed as an all-in-one laptop, not a top-of-the-line model. It was very versatile, but not "luxurious".

Which is just to say that in my case I am very flexible about the hardware I need: anything from a PII with 64Mb of RAM to the present day's hardware would work

You keep emphasizing your extremely low hardware requirements -- is this because you are on a very low budget? If you can get say Pentium III for $100 and Pentium M for just $50 more, why not just get the latter? You are looking for the most "luxurious" Thinkpad and yet you are settling for ancient technologies just to save a few bucks, which I find baffling.

[hlaj]

You keep emphasizing your extremely low hardware requirements -- is this because you are on a very low budget?

No, not at all. It was just in response to suggestions that certain hardware wouldn't be adequate for certain purposes, and I wanted to say that in fact that hardware would do very nicely for my purposes.
I thought perhaps there was some confusion.

If you can get say Pentium III for $100 and Pentium M for just $50 more, why not just get the latter? You are looking for the most "luxurious" Thinkpad and yet you are settling for ancient technologies just to save a few bucks, which I find baffling.

I'm just allowing for the possibility that the most luxurious laptop might come with low hardware specs. It might be that there is a PII laptop that if not for the fact that it has a relatively weak processor would be considered most luxurious. It's really an invitation to compare models neglecting the effects of faster processor power and more RAM. Also, "ancient" is a relative term. To me ancient would be before the PDP-10!

[hlaj]

"Original price" wouldn't be a good criterion because laptops have been getting cheaper over time. Back in the early 1990s, even the crappiest laptops were close to $2K, whereas now you can get a high-end laptop for well below that.

That's certainly true. The laptop I have now was close to $3K at the time, but still there were more expensive laptops--like the thinkpads. But I think that is a fair point. The price should be considered relative to laptops of its day. Now an expensive laptop would be in the $2k-$3k range bought new, for example a high-end sony vaio z series or panasonic laptop.

[pianowizard]

I'm just allowing for the possibility that the most luxurious laptop might come with low hardware specs. It might be that there is a PII laptop that if not for the fact that it has a relatively weak processor would be considered most luxurious.

Thanks for the clarification. This caveat does apply to the 770Z, which came with 366MHz Pentium II, whereas some of the 600E models it overlapped with had 400MHz Pentium II. The 770Z (and the 770X) with 13.7" 1280x1024 was not only "luxurious" but also extremely unique, since no other laptop has used such a resolution. For me, it's the most interesting Thinkpad ever made. Performance-wise, it's fast enough for you, but it's getting very hard to find and considering its age, it probably doesn't have many years left. So, I think a T43p would be a better choice for you. The 1600x1200 resolution is high, but you can scale things to make them look bigger.

Also, "ancient" is a relative term. To me ancient would be before the PDP-10!

I usually don't need or buy the latest technologies. I do have an HP desktop with Core i7-2600 for my most demanding data analysis (which actually should be done on a supercomputer!), but all my other current computers are 5 to 9 years old. For me, "ancient" means 2GHz Pentium 4 and older, because Windows XP SP3 + Avast struggle on such machines.

[rumbero]

Another vote for the A31 series

There is one on sale over at the German thinkpad-forum.de website, which appears to be very well equipped. Check out thinkpad-forum.de/threads/102482 Thinkpad A31p mit viel Zubehör for further details and photos.

[hlaj]

There is one on sale over at the German thinkpad-forum.de website, which appears to be very well equipped. Check out thinkpad-forum.de/threads/102482 Thinkpad A31p mit viel Zubehör for further details and photos.

Thanks Rumbero for all your help. I think that would be very nice thinkpad, but I think the A3X series is not for me. I happened to have seen one in real life two days ago. Since I am now much more attuned to the various varieties of thinkpad, I glanced over at the model number and also saw it in action. I can see why it is the thinkpad that various members here would take to a desert island and why some people here would call it luxurious. But at the same time, I think I've had a change of heart about luxury and even notebook computers.

It started from my observation that for the price of a new harddrive, three times the price of a replacement harddrive for my "ancient" harddrive or half the price of a modern SSD harddrive, I could buy an entire system--one that was considered luxurious, special and high-end in its day. It seemed at the time like a good idea and also a kind of cosmic joke on the gods of technology: replacing a broken 4gb harddrive with an entire "luxurious" thinkpad system of roughly equivalent cost.

I went about asking what would be considered the most luxurious and while people generally responded with scare quotes around the term "luxurious" in the process I learned a lot about thinkpads.

As you pointed out, thinkpads of the IBM era were plagued by different problems up until the T61.
For every design improvement, there seemed to be a point of mechanical or electrical failure that was enough to dampen the enthusiasm of even thinkpad enthusiasts on this forum. If there were no problems, the feature set was such that it would be considered extremely weak by modern standards: for example very short battery life compared to modern laptops. In addition, although certain models have aged well, the electronics were only designed to last a finite amount of time, which is not to say that some people will be lucky and their electronics will last a lifetime or more.
On top of that many of the earlier thinkpads used non-standard parts, which are now harder to source making thinkpads of that era mainly for enthusiast collectors as well as the people who happen to have bought them and still use them. All of which led you to recommend the T6x series, which I see now is a very sound recommendation. Since the used T60 series costs only one ancient hard drive unit more than previous models, it makes no sense to buy anything earlier.

However, all this discussion led me to question the way I was using a notebook computer. I was looking at docking stations/ultrabases and "desktop replacement" thinkpads, and started considering my usage. Only a few times a year do I actually need to carry my computer somewhere and during those times almost any laptop from 1997 onward would do. The rest of the time, my needs would probably be better met by a desktop since it would not be bound by the constraints that come with trying to fit so many components into a small self-contained unit. Then, for example, I can have a UXGA screen, but I can have it be 21 inches as opposed to 15 inches or even 12 inches. There are desktops also with more features that I find desirable and also the ergonomics are arguably better by separating the keyboard from the screen.

It was however, very interesting for a brief time to consider owning a thinkpad and what might make one luxurious. To a certain extent, I still think the earlier thinkpads with their rubberized palmrests, keyboards approximating a model M, good black boxy but sleek design, colored port scheme, trackpoint, and light weight are all luxurious compared to what I have now. If I had to choose a model as most luxurious really not knowing anything more than I do now, perhaps it would be the X40 with ULV processor and modded CF card harddrive together with an X4 ultrabase with a DVD burner connected to a model M keyboard and 27" monitor.

...but then I would be a different kind of computer user.

[pianowizard]

my needs would probably be better met by a desktop since it would not be bound by the constraints that come with trying to fit so many components into a small self-contained unit. Then, for example, I can have a UXGA screen, but I can have it be 21 inches as opposed to 15 inches or even 12 inches. There are desktops also with more features that I find desirable and also the ergonomics are arguably better by separating the keyboard from the screen.

Many excellent suggestions have been posted on this thread but the best one came from yourself. I am glad that you came to this conclusion so quickly, after spending only a few days looking for a laptop. By contrast, it took me about five years to realize desktop computers serve me better than laptops. During those years, I went through over 60 laptops including 45 Thinkpads and was never completely satisfied with any of them. Right now, I am using two desktops with 6.5TB in combined HDD capacity and eight high-res monitors totaling 20.2 megapixels, something rather difficult to achieve with laptops. I do have two laptops but use them only about several weeks a year, when I need mobility.

That said, don't you still need to replace your Toshiba with a laptop for the several times a year that you need one? What laptop are you planning to get? Or will you just replace the dead hard drive? It's a terrible time to replace hard drives though because the floods in Thailand have caused hard drive prices to double if not triple. It will take another half year or so for prices to return to normal.

[hlaj]

That said, don't you still need to replace your Toshiba with a laptop for the several times a year that you need one? What laptop are you planning to get? Or will you just replace the dead hard drive? It's a terrible time to replace hard drives though because the floods in Thailand have caused hard drive prices to double if not triple. It will take another half year or so for prices to return to normal.

Well, it's working OK with the flash drive stick in the USB port, so I plan to stay with what I have and
get a desktop. Thanks though for your comments!