15" UXGA screen on Core2Duo T60P?

[MichaelS]

Can anyone tell me if any Core2Duo versions of the T60P were manufactured with the 15" 1600x1200 UXGA screen?

I have searched various TA books, and only see Core2Duo T60Ps with 14.1" SXGA+ and 15.4" WSXGA+ screens.

Am I mistaken?

Thanks

[Johan]

You could seem to be right, as according to the relatiovely few listed T60p's in the ltwbook those delivered with FlexView/IPS 15" 4:3 UXGA LCD only came with Core Duo CPU's. Recall, however, that the ltwbook does not list all T60p's manufactured by Lenovo - there were far more/different models (including the many CTO's).

However, you may easily upgrade a Core Duo UXGA T60p to a Core 2 Duo; this has been done by many users, and is described in many threads here on the forum... see e.g. Upgrade T60p CoreDuo to Core2Duo or T60 Core Duo --> Core 2 Duo just to mention a few.

Hint 1: Check your motherboard revision, before attempting an upgrade...

Hint 2: Try search this forum yourself for more information...

Johan

[Backslashnl1]

According to ThinkWiki the T60p was also available with the T7400 and T7600.

[ajkula66]

Most 4:3 15" C2D T60p units came with SXGA+ IPS LCDs, since Lenovo was running out of UXGA panels by the time Core 2 Duo CPUs were introduced.

This is how you get the best of both worlds: get a late-model-C2D 15" unit, pull out the SXGA+ screen, and drop in a NOS Hydis UXGA...

[Johan]

According to ThinkWiki the T60p was also available with the T7400 and T7600.

... sure, but the OP is asking whether the 15" (non-widescreen) T60p's ever came straight from IBM/Lenovo with UXGA LCD's; ThinkWiki does not give any details about that...

To the OP: Try, if you like, to search the IBM Announcement Letters - there's a LOT of information there which I really doubt you'll be abe to find elsewhere.

By the way; what's the reason for your initial question, if I may be so free to ask?

Johan

[MichaelS]

Thanks for all the replies, information and tips.

In response to Johan's question, I ask because I want what ajkula66 calls the best of both worlds: the C2D and the 15" UXGA screen.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather the C2D offers slightly improved performance over the Core Duo chip (and the ability to run 64-bit Win7).

I've never seen a 15.4" WSXGA+ wide screen, but from the listings it's not a Flexview IPS.

I have an old A30P with the 1600x1200 Flexview UXGA screen, and love the wide viewing angles and high definition.

I also ask because I have my eye on a T60P 2GHz Core Duo with a 15" UXGA screen that I can actually see in person. As they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush: Assuming the C2D/UXGA animal I'm looking for exists (CTO or other), I'd have to actually find one, and then take a chance on buying it on the Web without seeing it firsthand, which I can do with the local one.

Meantime, I'll look at the IBM Announcement Letters and the method for installing a C2D in a Core Duo machine. Thanks, Johan.

All comments and advice welcome. In particular, how much performance improvement would I get with a C2D over a Core Duo, and what would the downsides be?

Michael

[rumbero]

In particular, how much performance improvement would I get with a C2D over a Core Duo, and what would the downsides be?

There have been some threads in this regard, and apparently there is not much performance improvement, but rather some other advantages. These are the already mentioned 64bit capability and built in virtualization support. Nonetheless, without the possibility to use more than 3GB of RAM with a T60 mainboard, these two advantages are likely less interesting than on a T61, which supports up to 8GB of RAM, alas without UXGA IPS/Flexview option.

I guess the ultimate best of two world option would be to replace the T60 mainboard by a T61 mainboard, thus retaining all the the UXGA IPS/Flexview goodness, as has been done by quite a few of members in this forum, including yours truly.

[Raceboy]

2 GHz Core 2 Duo T7200 is about 5-10% faster than Core Duo at the same 2 GHz clock speed (T2500) and doesn't run any hotter.

[ajkula66]

In my experience, Core 2 Duo units actually run cooler than their Core Duo siblings.

I've never seen an UXGA-equipped T60p that came with C2D from the factory - not saying that these don't exist.

Building one is likely less complicated than locating such a bird, though...

[Johan]

In response to Johan's question, I ask because I want what ajkula66 calls the best of both worlds: the C2D and the 15" UXGA screen.

You want "the best of both Worlds”, you say? This may of course sound nice by first glance, but before moving on you’ll obviously need to consider the anticipated use of your potentially-future T60p, and consider what is important to you; super CPU and/or GPU speed, extremely fast SATA-III HDD/SSD speeds, amazing 24+ hour of battery time (minimum!), weight below 100 g, display sized 4” or below or 50” or above etc. etc.? Until you have made your “wants” and “needs”” clear (to yourself, and shared with us, in the case you want intelligent feedback!), then “The Best Of Both Worlds” isn’t really that meaningful… Anyway, just for the info, my dream-ThinkPad is described in the thread Parts for the ultimate 15” T60 UXGA FlexView w/T61(p) mobo? which you nay browse for your continued ThinkPad-education!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather the C2D offers slightly improved performance over the Core Duo chip (and the ability to run 64-bit Win7).

As to the “gain” by replacing a Core Duo by a Core 2 Duo CPU in a T60/T60p, this has been widely discussed and reported here on the forum (… search!); in e.g. the thread T60 CPU upgrade - currently a T2300 CD, can a T5200 C2D work I’ve collected a number of user reports; see this post. My suggestion? Before upgrading the CPU, I’d certainly (and even strongly!) recommend getting a SSD… see e.g. the user-report about the improvement of adding a SSD to a T60 in the thread Windows 7, 32-bit ATI X1400 driver. Beware however that T60/p’s only support SATA-I devices (and neither SATA-II nor –III, both will only run at SATA-I speed if used in a T60/p), so practically any 2.5” SATA SSD will work. My personal preference is Intel SSD’s (their 320-series SSD’s even come with an impressive, industry-leading five-year warranty!); from time to time you can “pick them up” very cheap (if in the USA); see e.g. $80, 80 GB Intel 320 SSD is back at Newegg through 1/14.

I've never seen a 15.4" WSXGA+ wide screen, but from the listings it's not a Flexview IPS.

Correct; there were never any widescreen FlexView/IPS LCD's for T60/p's... see the sticky at the top of this forum for more information LCDs on T60/T60p - types, availability and other discussions - no need to look elsewhere for information about T60/p LCD's!

I also ask because I have my eye on a T60P 2GHz Core Duo with a 15" UXGA screen that I can actually see in person. As they say, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush: Assuming the C2D/UXGA animal I'm looking for exists (CTO or other), I'd have to actually find one, and then take a chance on buying it on the Web without seeing it firsthand, which I can do with the local one.

Go it, see it, try it, feel it, sense it! If buying an used ThinkPad, I’d suggest to review the “check-list” in e.g. the thread Would u say that a used T42P is reliable ? + Things To Check (most of the things mentioned there apply to T60/p’s as well, including the FlexView/IPS LCD ageing effects of various kinds... I'd strongly recommend to check in particular the LCD before buying using e.g. Dead Pixel Buddy). BEWARE that especially T60p's are known to have a relatively high amount of fan noise... although some ways to improve this exist (see e.g. New methods to reduce the fan noise in a T60 or in a T60p), it may require that you need to modify your "new" T60p right from day one - which could be a bit unsatisfactory? I therefore encourage you to try out the T60p, as long as possible, and using the programs you expect to use it for.

In particular, how much performance improvement would I get with a C2D over a Core Duo, and what would the downsides be?

See above. Downsides... not much, except of course you'll need to shed out the $$$ for a new CPU, and you'll need to swap it yourself; but again, this can fairly easily be done, and there are LOTS of reports and videos around explaining in great detail how to do this (tip: Search!).

If I was in your situation, then I'd try borrow the T60p in question, try it out, check e.g. eBay for pricing information (try search for "Recently Completed Listings" to see what similar T60p sell for nowadays). If you really want it, Michael, then... GO GET IT!! Don't postpone happiness!

Good luck with the decision-making...!

Johan

[TuuS]

Some very good advice, but considering the costs involved, and what you'd end up with, I think it would be best to get the unit with the core2, then add the uxga screen, rather then the reverse. The last T7600 I sold went for almost $100 on ebay, so if you buy a T60/T60p and add a $100 cpu, you still won't have the same graphics that you'd have if you got a T60p with the T7600. A good uxga screen will cost more then a cpu, but the cpu will normally outlive the computer, flexview screens, as beautiful as they are, aren't noted for longevity, so your money would be well spend getting a new screen.

That's the way I would do it.

[MichaelS]

Thank you all for your helpful comments and links.

In answer to Johan's question about my wants and needs, they're pretty basic. I'm not a power user, so my usage includes Office applications, Web browsing, watching videos on the Web. My current A30P with an ancient processor handles these tasks pretty well.

What seem like limited performance gains from a C2D processor over a Core Duo do not encourage me to go through the acrobatics involved in swapping a mobo etc. I have some experience working on my A30P. The screen went out once, and I bought a matching replacement UXGA screen from an A31P along with its inverter and cable. I never identified which component had failed (probably the inverter, which was buzzing before the screen went blank), so I replaced all three components.

But attaching the cable to the screen was one of the most excruciating mechanical exercises I've ever gone through. It took a couple of hours before I managed somehow to get the black plastic side clips in the connector to slide in properly. (The diagram in the HMM wasn't helpful.) So I'm unsure I have the patience to go through that exercise again to put a UXGA screen in a T60P C2D.

Meantime, my main concern with the T60P at this point is the noise.

In explanation, in November I bought a second-hand T60P w/ a T2600/2.13 GHz processor, 4GB of memory and a 320GB (but 5400 rpm) WD HDD. (Before the flooding in Thailand and before finding that T60P, I had bought a new Hitachi 320GB/7200 HDD, but have yet to install it.)

While I haven't installed Office etc. on the T60P, I'm very happy with its performance (it's good enough for my needs). And if I've posted here it's because I want a second T60P to network with the first and to have in the event I have problems with the first one, since I will retire the A30P, which I've had for 10 years. In particular, as a one-man consulting business, I need to both keep my life simple and enure reliability of my equipment.

The one for sale currently in my area (Paris) has the advantage of being at a reasonable price and geographically accessible. Plus I rarely see T60Ps with 15" screens for sale around Paris.

My main and only issue with my current T60P is the fan noise, which is s annoying but bearable. I vacuumed out the machine and checked for dust around the fan (I saw none), and have run the machine with and without a 2504 dock. (I bought the dock on eBay in order to have a DVI output to run two outboard screens, one with DVI the other with the VGA port.)

The fan comes on in two stages, but runs continuously after a few minutes of turning the machine on. The noise is the same with and without the dock. However, I want to see what I can do to fix it, knowing I've already updated the BIOS to the latest version.

I'd already read a number of threads about this problem, including those on using the temp-control software. I've noticed some people mention that the fan used in the C2D machines works better than the fan in the Core duo machines, and that they're interchangeable. In one thread I read: "41W6407 is a newer and improved version of 41V9932" and I also noted a thread saying 41W6407 was designed for Core 2 Duo machines and provides better cooling: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=89929.

Thanks Johan for the German thread on replacing the T60 fan with another model. That sounds like a last but possible resort.

Both T60P and R500 fans are available for reasonable prices new on the IBM parts site.

While I haven't yet investigated the noise problem, I'll be getting to it soon, and will go through the many threads and try to decide the best way to get the noisy beast under control. More later.

Meantime, thank you Johan, too, for the suggestion about an SSD drive. I wonder if using an SSD drive will reduce the heat and make the machine run cooler and hopefully not make the fan turn on more often or run so fast. And I wasn't aware of the SATA interface limitation on the T60P

And thanks for the checklist. I had made one of my own for the first T60P, but a couple of points had escaped me. I've added them to my list for checking the T60P currently for sale in my area, which I plan to see in the next day or two.

All in all, I think a standard T60P, hopefully rejiggered to combat the noise, is the best compromise for my needs and with my patience for building a full-blown Frankenpad. I'd love to go that route, but I'm unsure the performance gains would be more important than slaying the noise dragon.

More comments welcome. Thanks for all the help so far!

Michael

[Backslashnl1]

If you don't like the noise, why choose a T60p? Its fan has to spin constantly to cool down the hot V5200 GPU, so without the V5200 GPU the fan doesn't have to spin that much. The only difference between T60's and T60p's is the GPU.

You should look for a regular T60 with a X1300 or even better, an Intel GPU. My T60 with Intel GPU runs the first 10 minutes without the fan spinning. Later on, the fan spins but with low noise.

[Raceboy]

I don't know why people think by that T60p is always hot and noisy? Doesn't have to be.
I have T60p with T7200 CPU (2.0 GHz) and V5200 and the fan rarely comes on. It usually spins on the lowest speed and is not audible unless you are totally silent room or put your ear next to exhaust vents.
CPU idles around 45-48 degrees C and GPU is around 5 degrees higher.

What I've done is refreshed thermal paste on CPU. Also got rid of the thermal pad on the GPU, bent the heatpipe a bit so it would align perfectly with GPU core and applied thermal paste. I also put the euro 2cent between clamp and heatsink near GPU so it makes perfect contact.

It is really pleasant machine to use and does not run neither hot nor noisy. Oh, CPU is also undervolted with NHC 2.4.3.

[MichaelS]

Raceboy: All the T60Ps I listed in the TA books that came with the T7200 processor had a V5250 graphics chip, not the V5200 chip. Which combination is yours?

Also, do you know which fan you're using? Is it the newer 41W6407, which I believe came on the T60P C2D machines only? Or is it the older 41V9932, which came on Core Duo machines?

Backslash: Thanks for the advice. I want a UXGA machine. No T60s came with UXGA screens, some T60Ps did.

[ajkula66]

OK, let's try this...

a) You can throw in an UXGA screen into any (4:3) 15" T6x/R6x shell and it will work just fine, regardless of graphics.

b) Forget the books, because they don't list half the models that actually were sold, especially not the corporate orders...

c) The fans are completely interchangeable between first and second generation of T60/p units with discrete graphics.

When I say first generation, I'm referring to V5200/Core Duo combo for the "p" models. The second generation was V5250/Core 2 Duo combo.

[Raceboy]

Raceboy: All the T60Ps I listed in the TA books that came with the T7200 processor had a V5250 graphics chip, not the V5200 chip. Which combination is yours?

My T60p did not come originally with C2D, I swapped it in myself.

[MichaelS]

OK, let's try this...

a) You can throw in an UXGA screen into any (4:3) 15" T6x/R6x shell and it will work just fine, regardless of graphics.

b) Forget the books, because they don't list half the models that actually were sold, especially not the corporate orders...

Thanks for a). I stand corrected on b).

I'm wondering if the later version of the fan is quieter than the earlier version.

[Backslashnl1]

Backslash: Thanks for the advice. I want a UXGA machine. No T60s came with UXGA screens, some T60Ps did.

Alright, I understand now why you are looking for a T60p

I don't know why people think by that T60p is always hot and noisy? Doesn't have to be.
I have T60p with T7200 CPU (2.0 GHz) and V5200 and the fan rarely comes on. It usually spins on the lowest speed and is not audible unless you are totally silent room or put your ear next to exhaust vents.
CPU idles around 45-48 degrees C and GPU is around 5 degrees higher.

What I've done is refreshed thermal paste on CPU. Also got rid of the thermal pad on the GPU, bent the heatpipe a bit so it would align perfectly with GPU core and applied thermal paste. I also put the euro 2cent between clamp and heatsink near GPU so it makes perfect contact.

It is really pleasant machine to use and does not run neither hot nor noisy. Oh, CPU is also undervolted with NHC 2.4.3.

I originally bought a T60p too, with T2600, 2GB, 7200RPM disk (don't remember how much GB), V5200 and UXGA screen. Later on I upgraded the CPU to T7600, 4GB ram and a 60GB SSD. With this config my CPU was idle at 50~60C degrees and the GPU about 65C. That's why I think T60p's are hot and noisy... mine was

Now I run on the same machine, but with this motherboard (came with 1 year warranty): T60 with T7600, 4GB ram, Intel GMA950 graphics and 60GB SSD. CPU temp idle is about 40C and stays there while surfing and simple Office work.

MichaelS: There are multiple ways to achieve your goal (quiet T60 machine with UXGA screen). You can buy a T60p with UXGA screen and build a T60 Intel graphics board in it, or a T60 with Intel graphics, and put a UXGA screen in it.

[MichaelS]

MichaelS: There are multiple ways to achieve your goal (quiet T60 machine with UXGA screen). You can buy a T60p with UXGA screen and build a T60 Intel graphics board in it, or a T60 with Intel graphics, and put a UXGA screen in it.

Thanks! If I wanted to do this, can you tell me:

1. Which Intel graphics board would I put in my T60P? Is there a FRU?
2. What's the method for putting it in?
3. What would the performance hit be vs. the V5200?
4. Can I keep using the same fan that came with the T60P?

Thanks.

[Raceboy]

Changing graphics means changing the system board.

Performance hit is enormous when chaning from V5200 to Intel GMA950. I use my T60p occasionally for gaming on lanparty and I don't feel the need to drag my desktop there. Granted, we play old games (COD 1, COD 2 and COD 4) and it is very nice for that. You would never run COD 2 decently on Intel video.
Not to mention the wow-effect from my friends when they look at the IPS screen and compare it to their crappy TN panels

[Backslashnl1]

Yup, you won't be able (or barely) to play 3d games with the Intel GMA950. For me that is not a problem, but if you want to you should avoid the Intel graphics.

Thanks! If I wanted to do this, can you tell me:

1. Which Intel graphics board would I put in my T60P? Is there a FRU?
2. What's the method for putting it in?
3. What would the performance hit be vs. the V5200?
4. Can I keep using the same fan that came with the T60P?

Thanks.

1. I don't know all the FRU's, I choose the FRU 41W1360. I see you live in France, so you could order at Lapstore.de. They sell a bunch of T60 boards with Intel graphics for € 29 + 10,95 shipping with 1 year warranty. I bought from this webshop and I would recommend to buy there if you live in Europe.
2. You should follow the Hardware Maintenance Manual and the Lenovo service video's as a guide to swap the motherboards. I did this last weekend and it took me 4 hours. It is not difficult, but just a lot of work
3. For games and 3d applications, huge. For all the other things, no big difference.
4. Yes. I bought a new fan for my T61 systemboard I had before, and now I am using that one for T60 board. I think all the T60/T61 fans are interchangeable, especially if you are using a systemboard with integrated graphics.

[MichaelS]

Thanks for the input from both of you.

I just spent a little time reading the link from here http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=101788 that ultimately took me to a German forum and then to here http://tpfc.mywo.org/index.php?action=home.

Adding this fan controller chip looks like a simple and effective way to tame noisy ThinkPad fans without further acrobatics. The little I can understand from the Google translation of user comments on the German site tells me this method has promise.

Anyone know about or use this fix?

[Raceboy]

I would rather use Notebook Hardware Control 2.4.3 which lets you undervolt the CPU and thus bring the temperature and fan noise down at the same time. Also battery lifetime increases by quite a bit.

[pit1337]

I would rather use Notebook Hardware Control 2.4.3 which lets you undervolt the CPU and thus bring the temperature and fan noise down at the same time. Also battery lifetime increases by quite a bit.

... but it does not work with x64 systems

[Raceboy]

Yes, but on T60/p it doesn't really matter as there is no point in running 64bit OS on it anyway.