Want something lighter than a T60 - Advice needed

[pianowizard]

I bought directly from Lenovo a brand-new X61 tablet with SXGA+ IPS and hated three things: it was way too heavy for a 12.1" laptop (3.84 lbs even with the smallest battery available), the screen was unacceptably grainy, and the extra touch surface covering the screen further distorted the image. I kept it for only about a week and sold it at a loss of over $100.

IMO, your best options are the MacBook Air with 13.3" 1440x900, the X300/301 Thinkpad, the X410s/420s, the Sony Vaio Z2* series, the Asus Zenbook UX31, and the Panasonic Toughbooks Y5/Y7. Among these, the Y5 would be the cheapest, often going for under $200 shipped on eBay, and it's the only one with 14.1" 1400x1050.

[RealBlackStuff]

Be very careful if you buy a Panasonic machine.
If it comes without hard disk caddy, that will cost you almost another $100.- for just the caddy alone!
And from reliable hearsay, they are a pig to work on, if anything goes wrong!

[ajkula66]

Thankfully, Y5/Y7 are not "fully rugged" so they don't require the expensive caddies that the more common ones do...

However, keyboard on those would not fly well with most ThinkPad buffs in my experience.

Any and every Panasonic is dreadful to work on, though...

All of that said, they are well-built machines fundamentally different from most of today's offerings...

[kawal]

I'm still considering many of your suggestions. After thinking more, I'm wondering if the X61 is for me. At first I thought a 12" screen is OK, since it is only 2" smaller than my T60 14" screen. Then I got to thinking that a 12" screen is only 1" bigger than my Ideapad screen, which seems pretty small (although widescreen).

It would be nice to see one of these in person to see if I can live with a 12" full size screen. If not, I may think about an X301 again.

Thanks again,

Ray

[pianowizard]

I'm wondering if the X61 is for me. At first I thought a 12" screen is OK, since it is only 2" smaller than my T60 14" screen. Then I got to thinking that a 12" screen is only 1" bigger than my Ideapad screen, which seems pretty small (although widescreen).

Surface area comparison:

14.1", 4:3 = 95.43 sq. inches
12.1", 4:3 = 70.28 sq. inches
11.1", 16:9 = 52.63 sq. inches

IMO, the main shortcoming of the X61 is not the size per se, but the ridiculously low resolution of 1024x768. Since you have gotten used to 1400x1050, I bet you would hate 1024x768. Get the X61 only if you plan to use it very occasionally (e.g. only when you travel) and only for the simplest tasks.

It would be nice to see one of these in person to see if I can live with a 12" full size screen. If not, I may think about an X301 again.

Many reviews have said the X301's screen is awful, in terms of contrast, viewing angles and color quality.

In recent years it has become sooooo hard to find laptops that meet my needs. In a way that's good though, because it put an end to my addiction to laptops, which led to buying a new laptop about every month!.

[underclocker]

A few more;

14.1", 4:3 = 95.43 sq. inches (T60)

14.1", 16:10 = 89.35 sq. inches (T410s)
14.1", 16:9 = 84.90 sq. inches (T420s)
13.3", 16:10 = 79.50 sq. inches (X301)

However, square inches don't tell the whole story, screen height is what get cut, a 12" 4:3 LCD is physically taller, and if SXGA+, 150 vertical lines higher resolution than the 13.3" X301 LCD, see below;

14.1" 4:3 (T60) 8.47" x 11.27"
14.1" 16:10 (T400s) 7.47" x 11.96"
14.1" 16:9 (T420s) 6.91" x 12.29"

12.1" 4:3 (X60) 7.27" x 9.67"
13.3" 16:10 (X301) 7.05" x 11.28"
12.1" 16:10 (X200) 6.41" x 10.26"
12.5" 16:9 (X220) 6.12" x 10.90"


Have fun on your own with LCD size info --> http://www.silisoftware.com/tools/screen.php

[kawal]

Here's an X301 on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0666006176

It seems pretty well equipped? What would be a decent offer to him?

Ray

[ajkula66]

If I were buying it (for someone else since a X301 wouldn't survive 24 hours in my house) I'd be offering $400.

And if you think I'm kidding - think again...

[kawal]

If I were buying it (for someone else since a X301 wouldn't survive 24 hours in my house) I'd be offering $400.

And if you think I'm kidding - think again...

I appreciate your reply - I sounds as if you aren't an X301 fan! You feel as if they are not built sturdily enough? Or is it something else you don't like? Someone else didn't like the screen.

Since I haven't seen one in person, I only have my T60 to compare it to regarding overall quality. I'm still thinking about a X60/61, but it sounds like a need a tablet model to get the high resolution screen. And someone mention they didn't like that screen as well.

It seems most everyone does like the T420, so maybe that's what I need, but I was really looking for something smaller and lighter than my T60. And the T420 is even wider than my T60. So it's a tough choice when I can't even see one in person (I happen to be in Hawaii right now and wont' be home until next week).

Thanks again,

Ray

[ajkula66]

I positively hate the screen on these things. Likely the second worst (Samsung WUXGA on T61/W500 being *the* worst) on a ThinkPad...other than that, it was a viable concept, seriously...but not for that amount of money nowadays.

Refurbished T400s from IBM, and you could pick up a SSD cheap if you really need one:

http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/americas/we ... logId=-840

Please don't get me wrong - your needs, your money, your call. I'd just hate to see you go out and buy something that you'd end up hating and not being able to recover at least the majority of the purchase cost by re-selling it...

Good luck.

[pianowizard]

Someone else didn't like the screen.

Not "someone", but many many users. The X301/X300 screen may be the most hated Thinkpad screen of the past decade.

It seems most everyone does like the T420, so maybe that's what I need

Most of us were recommending the T420s, not the heavier T420. The "s" is part of the actual model number, not the plural of "T420".

So it's a tough choice when I can't even see one in person

It's a tough choice if you restrict yourself to Thinkpads. Your requirements seem identical to mine, and after spending 8 years searching for a Thinkpad that met all these requirements, I came to the conclusion that it's impossible.

[underclocker]

Your requirements seem identical to mine, and after spending 8 years searching for a Thinkpad that met all these requirements, I came to the conclusion that it's impossible.

Sadly, this is true for many. And while the T420s may be the best compromise, it is ridiculously wide...and while thin and light, surprisingly not small.

I am also hesitate to recommend non-ThinkPads, but really, the MacBook 13 pleases many.

[kawal]

I positively hate the screen on these things. Likely the second worst (Samsung WUXGA on T61/W500 being *the* worst) on a ThinkPad...other than that, it was a viable concept, seriously...but not for that amount of money nowadays.

Refurbished T400s from IBM, and you could pick up a SSD cheap if you really need one:

http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/americas/we ... logId=-840

Please don't get me wrong - your needs, your money, your call. I'd just hate to see you go out and buy something that you'd end up hating and not being able to recover at least the majority of the purchase cost by re-selling it...

Good luck.

This has been a very interesting discussion - for me at least. I'm really getting an education about Thinkpads in the past few years.

I assume, George, that you do like the displays on the X61 tablets with the high resolution screen? The only issue is the physical size - rather small at 12"?

I'm sort of coming to the conclusion that the best Thinkpad out there is the one I already have - the T60! Even the T61s went to widescreen.

I assume someone must like widescreen in laptops - since everyone is heading in that direction.

Ray

[ajkula66]

Well, there were some non-widescreen T61s, but that was the end of line for full-size 4:3 ThinkPads...some T60s were widescreen as well...

Yes, I do like X6x tablets with SXGA+. A lot. In all fairness, I'm getting more and more attached to the format as I'm going along.

They are *not* light - one can do a lot better in terms of weight, but the screen is addictive. At least for me...

I don't think that there's anything wrong with the concept of widescreen laptop per se - I would've just preferred having the choice of both formats, like one had with T6x generation...

Hey if you want another T60, just drop me a PM, have several T60p units that need a loving home...

[pianowizard]

I'm sort of coming to the conclusion that the best Thinkpad out there is the one I already have - the T60!

For the most part I agree with you. If it were under 4 lbs, I would definitely agree with you.

Do you really need the optical drive? You can swap it out for a travel bezel to shave off about 0.4 lbs. And if you are using a 9-cell battery, replace it with a 6-cell battery.

[kawal]

Well, there were some non-widescreen T61s, but that was the end of line for full-size 4:3 ThinkPads...some T60s were widescreen as well...

Yes, I do like X6x tablets with SXGA+. A lot. In all fairness, I'm getting more and more attached to the format as I'm going along.

They are *not* light - one can do a lot better in terms of weight, but the screen is addictive. At least for me...

I don't think that there's anything wrong with the concept of widescreen laptop per se - I would've just preferred having the choice of both formats, like one had with T6x generation...

Hey if you want another T60, just drop me a PM, have several T60p units that need a loving home...

I found this T60p on ebay that looks pretty interesting:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... TQ:US:1123

It has Bluetooth and a fingerprint reader.

Is this one of yours?

Ray

[kawal]

For the most part I agree with you. If it were under 4 lbs, I would definitely agree with you.

Do you really need the optical drive? You can swap it out for a travel bezel to shave off about 0.4 lbs. And if you are using a 9-cell battery, replace it with a 6-cell battery.

I hardly ever use the optical drive. And I think the battery is the smaller one. I'm never that concerned about battery life, because I almost always have power nearby when I'm using the computer.

Even on my little U110 Ideapad, I have the smallest battery (good for about 1/2 hour!), but its OK for me.

Ray

[RealBlackStuff]

George/ajkula66 does not sell on eBay.
Besides, he lives in PA, 'your' eBay seller is in WA, on the other side of the country...

[ajkula66]

I found this T60p on ebay that looks pretty interesting:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... TQ:US:1123

It has Bluetooth and a fingerprint reader.

Is this one of yours?

Ray

No sir, as RBS correctly stated I don't do feebay.

Here's one of mine:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=102137

A fabulous machine if one wants a top-shelf 14" T60p...

[JaneL]

I appreciate your reply - I sounds as if you aren't an X301 fan! You feel as if they are not built sturdily enough? Or is it something else you don't like? Someone else didn't like the screen.

Just to provide another opinion, you would only get my X301 away from me by prying it out of my hands. For my purposes (general office-type work, web browsing, forum usage, email, FB, casual gaming, movies, etc), it's the perfect size and weight, the keyboard is wonderful, it's been lugged all over the place without babying it and never missed a beat and, finally, there's nothing wrong with the screen. It's the only TP i've truly loved since the 600X.

[pianowizard]

I hardly ever use the optical drive.

Here's the travel bezel that I mentioned: http://www.ebay.com/itm/UltraBay-Blank- ... 2a064cd2cd . $8.99 shipped is a tad on the expensive side but still worth it. I sold several last year for $6 each but I don't have any left.

If you are obsessed with making your T60 as light as possible, you can replace the hard drive with an SSD (which would also speed up the system), and replace the two RAM sticks with just one 2GB stick (which would also marginally conserve battery usage). Finally, you can replace your AC adapter with the lighter, lower-wattage one designed for the X Series. Some say this is not safe but I used to run my T42 with a low-wattage charger and never had any issue.

Minimizing your T60's weight would be the second best answer to your thread title, "Want something lighter than a T60 - Advice needed". I mentioned the best answer earlier but it seems you aren't interested in pursuing that route.

[underclocker]

@JaneL - it's good to hear that some people find the X301 LCD acceptable, I've yet to own one.

_____________________________


I suppose, the OP could try to build the ultimate, light 14.1" 4:3 ThinkPad. By starting with an Intel GPU 14.1" 4:3 T61, using the travel bezel, a single 4GB stick of ram, an SSD, and the lightest components for all other parts, it might be possible to get the weight down to 4.5 lbs., from just over 5 lbs.

I've found and commented in other threads, that there is considerable variability of weights for each laptop component, since there are often more than one manufacturer and specific parts change over time, as well. You could find the lightest LCD, memory, SSD, battery, etc. and wind up with a nice solution. Of course, this would take time, effort and a lot of buying, then reselling parts that are overweight. A T61, configured with a fast Core 2 Duo CPU, would be a step up from the T60. And it won't be any smaller the OP's T60.

[ssd_thinkpad]

1. For a lightweight, T60, remove the optical drive and only put the ssd stick inside the hdd SATA port (remove the 60 g cover from the ssd). I am not sure how stable the ssd then fits, so you might put some lightweight stuff there to hold it.

2. I have seen hundreds of displays and the x301 was the worst.

3. If you don't mind changing your operation system and don't need a rugged laptop, the 13 inch MacBook Air is a very good choice. It also looks better in a coffee bar.

4. The 14 inch T60 is actually lightweight for what it offers: larger vertical display size, very comfortable keyboard, and you can dock it in a docking station. Its successor, the 15.6 inch 16:9 T520 can not compare to the 14 inch T60 in terms of vertical display size (size, not resolution). Also, the T60 is build around the display panel. All modern thinkpads include a more or less huge bezel.

5. If you really want it to feel lightweight, consider carrying it in a notebook backpack. 4 kg in the backpack feels easier than 2 kg in a shoulder back.

[kawal]

1. For a lightweight, T60, remove the optical drive and only put the ssd stick inside the hdd SATA port (remove the 60 g cover from the ssd). I am not sure how stable the ssd then fits, so you might put some lightweight stuff there to hold it.

2. I have seen hundreds of displays and the x301 was the worst.

3. If you don't mind changing your operation system and don't need a rugged laptop, the 13 inch MacBook Air is a very good choice. It also looks better in a coffee bar.

4. The 14 inch T60 is actually lightweight for what it offers: larger vertical display size, very comfortable keyboard, and you can dock it in a docking station. Its successor, the 15.6 inch 16:9 T520 can not compare to the 14 inch T60 in terms of vertical display size (size, not resolution). Also, the T60 is build around the display panel. All modern thinkpads include a more or less huge bezel.

5. If you really want it to feel lightweight, consider carrying it in a notebook backpack. 4 kg in the backpack feels easier than 2 kg in a shoulder back.

When I began this thread, I thought it would be easy to find the ideal laptop, since it's been a number of years since the T60's came out. I thought surely there would be a better laptop meeting my needs, as the T60 has done for some time now. But I'm disappointed to find the newer (and lighter) laptops are wider than what I already have. I don't need more power - my T60 is fast enough and I've got 3 Gb of RAM and a 250 Gb drive in it. And Windows XP serves me fine. I just wanted something smaller and lighter.

So as of now, I think the X61 tablet with the high res display or maybe just another T60 or 60p might have to suffice.

One question though - although I'm currently satisfied with Windows XP, I thought I read somewhere that the T60p, with its Fire GL video card, is not compatible with Windows 7. Is this true? My T60 has the ATI x1300 card in it, which is OK for Windows 7 - true? Since I'm not into gaming, are there certain cards I should look for, or stay away from? I definitely want the 1400x1050 resolution however.

Ray

[ajkula66]

One question though - although I'm currently satisfied with Windows XP, I thought I read somewhere that the T60p, with its Fire GL video card, is not compatible with Windows 7. Is this true? My T60 has the ATI x1300 card in it, which is OK for Windows 7 - true? Since I'm not into gaming, are there certain cards I should look for, or stay away from? I definitely want the 1400x1050 resolution however.

Ray

Hogwash, plain and simple.

All of the T60/p range - from Intel graphics to V5250 and everything in between - run W7 exceptionally well. I'm typing this on a 14" T60p with V5200 and W7.

The same holds true for Intel X3100 integrated chipset that you'll find in X61 tablet - amongst other places.

Happy hunting.

[kawal]

Hogwash, plain and simple.

All of the T60/p range - from Intel graphics to V5250 and everything in between - run W7 exceptionally well. I'm typing this on a 14" T60p with V5200 and W7.

The same holds true for Intel X3100 integrated chipset that you'll find in X61 tablet - amongst other places.

Happy hunting.

Thank you. I thought that it sounded strange, so thank you for clarifying.

Did your sale of your X61 tablet go through OK? That and your T60p's sound like nice laptops.

Ray

[underclocker]

3. If you don't mind changing your operation system and don't need a rugged laptop, the 13 inch MacBook Air is a very good choice.

No OS change required. You can either run Win 7 via Boot Camp, Parallels, Fusion or natively on a MacBook Air 13. Yes, it is delicate, one slight drop and it will never look the same.

[kawal]

3. If you don't mind changing your operation system and don't need a rugged laptop, the 13 inch MacBook Air is a very good choice.

No OS change required. You can either run Win 7 via Boot Camp, Parallels, Fusion or natively on a MacBook Air 13. Yes, it is delicate, one slight drop and it will never look the same.

I've heard lots of folks say they love their Macs, and even though I own a couple of iPods, I somehow can't come to love them the way others do. I'm sure they are good computers, maybe superior computers, but I guess I'm just used to Thinkpads - even if they become dinosaurs. Maybe some day I'll wise up, but I'm still not ready.

Thank you for the suggestion though.

Ray

[ajkula66]

Did your sale of your X61 tablet go through OK? That and your T60p's sound like nice laptops.

Ray

We do maintain a "revolving door" policy for many models - T60/p and X61T included - one goes out and another one comes in...

Feel free to inquire anytime...

[projanen]

One question though, do I have to have a special version of Windows XP for the tablet? Or only if I use the tablet features?

I wouldn't think that WinXP Tablet PC version is required for the X6x tablets. But it was included. It's just a superset of WinXP Pro. According to Wikipedia, the Tablet PC parts of the OS are available for free now for any WinXP (Pro?) license.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP ... PC_Edition

I've turned off all the visible aspects of the Windows Tablet features (onscreen keyboard et al), but I haven't confirmed that the Thinkpad tablet hardware drivers (pen, digitizer, buttons) work in a non-Tablet PC version of Windows. I used to use Journal a lot for handwritten math notes, but no longer. I had thought of trying a non-Tablet PC version of WinXP sometime, but I don't know if that even makes sense now that it is sorta included in Service Pack 2.

I've found the X6x tablets to be truly no-compromise convertible laptops. I now rarely use the tablet features of my X60T, but the fact that it is still a physical tablet does not get in my way. It works very well as a non-tablet laptop. The hardware tablet features still occasionally come in handy (OS tablet features are not necessary in order to spin the display around to show something to a colleague, allow youngsters to play in MS Paint with the pen, be a full-featured e-book reader for PDFs, or cheat on games that don't expect you to have a pen, ...).

Consider looking for the WinXP downgrade discs if you get an X61T. After ordering my X61T with Vista from eBay, I called up Lenovo and ordered the "downgrade" XP discs. I haven't tried them yet, but they're on hand if I ever need to put my X61T into full-time service. For now (and until my X60T dies, which may be a while), my X61T is a secondary laptop which I've turned into a Win7 test machine. The way my X60T is hanging on, the X61T may serve as a Win8 test machine (alas, without multi-finger touch).

These tablets/convertibles hold up very well. I've not babied my X60T. It's been quite the commuter.