T410 repeatedly overheating

[omegatron]

Any time I do anything that taxes the processor, the computer goes black and shuts down.

I tried blowing out the fan with compressed air, and then it stopped booting. It would say "fan error".

I opened the laptop, removed the heatsink, opened the fan, removed a ball of hair, and put it all back together. No more fan error, but then it wouldn't run for more than a few seconds before it overheats and shuts down, reaching temps of >100 °C.

I figure disturbing the thermal paste has ruined the connection to the heatsink, so I open it all up again, clean the original paste (which seems dried out and over-applied at the factory) off with alcohol, and add some Arctic Silver 5 in a thin layer and put it all back together. It runs now, but if I load it significantly, it reaches >100 °C and shuts down.

I've resorted to setting "Maximum CPU speed" to "Low" to prevent shutdowns.

Maybe I didn't apply it correctly? Maybe something else is wrong? Can other people run their T410 at high load and see what the temperature gets to?

This is what the thermal paste looked like from the factory:

http://i.imgur.com/OyaSL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h1O0K.jpg

and this is what it looked like after I cleaned it off with alcohol and replaced with a thin layer of Arctic Silver:

http://i.imgur.com/ewYumh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1ZtlS.jpg[

Here's a plot of temperature over time:

http://imgur.com/FLyyl

Can others see if their T410 reaches similar temperatures?

[ZaZ]

I converted you pics to links because we don't allow large pictures without a warning in the subject line and over 50k in size is frowned up here per the rules of the road. It also makes your post much easier to read.

Is your fan working at all? Maybe it's just time for a new fan. It should be easy to find via eBay.

[omegatron]

Is your fan working at all? Maybe it's just time for a new fan. It should be easy to find via eBay.

It makes a nice whining noise and TPFC and HWiNFO64 both say it's running at 5000 RPM if I manually set it for highest speed. What's normal? (Also I recorded the sound and there's a peak at 83 Hz, as would be expected for 5000 RPM, so that number seems accurate.)

[TTY]

You seem to have removed some sort of protective sheet from the processor, maybe not such a good idea. Especially if the thermal paste is electrically conductive. If you can't re-use the protective sheet that you removed, the Hardware Maintenance Manual lists a set of parts called "system miscellaneous parts" that contains an "insulation sheet for CPU". That might be what you need. I'm not certain, though.

The hardware maintenance manual says to apply 0.2 g of thermal grease to an area on the heatsink. 0.2 g is considerably more than a paper thin layer. I mounted a fan assembly in a T61, its HMM also says to use 0.2 g of thermal grease. I got a syringe of thermal paste that has a scale in ml on it, so it's possible to apply the correct amount. Maybe you should try to do it that way.

The highest CPU temperature that i've seen during the two days that i've had ThinkPad Fan Control installed is 64°C. That was while i was watching a video. When idle, it's in the forties.

[TTY]

I should maybe add that i used a thermal grease that seems to have even better thermal conductivity than Arctic Silver, it's called Keratherm KP 12.

The link to the manufacturer:

http://www.kerafol.com/en/innovation-in ... rease.html

Datasheet:

http://www.kerafol.com/fileadmin/user_u ... grease.pdf

I'm not sure whether it's available in the U.S., though.

[omegatron]

You seem to have removed some sort of protective sheet from the processor, maybe not such a good idea. Especially if the thermal paste is electrically conductive.

I figured it was just a sticker to keep the paste off the pins, but the factory got paste under it anyway. https://imgur.com/Y3dMv

The hardware maintenance manual says to apply 0.2 g of thermal grease to an area on the heatsink. 0.2 g is considerably more than a paper thin layer. I mounted a fan assembly in a T61, its HMM also says to use 0.2 g of thermal grease. I got a syringe of thermal paste that has a scale in ml on it, so it's possible to apply the correct amount. Maybe you should try to do it that way.

Hmm. The one I have doesn't have a scale. It holds 3.5 g. I'm not sure how much I put on. Generally the advice is to use a thin coat, since even the best thermal grease is a much poorer conductor than metal-on-metal.

[TTY]

Generally the advice is to use a thin coat, since even the best thermal grease is a much poorer conductor than metal-on-metal.

I suppose the reason for recommending to use as much as 0.2 g is, that the fit between the chips and the fan assembly might be less than perfect. That would mean, that if one uses too little thermal grease, there would be a risk of getting an air gap between at least parts of the surfaces. Which would be even worse than having thermal grease fill up the space.

[FTC]

Hi,

It seems like the heatsink is not making proper contact with both parts of the processor. it should be perfectly even and it could be a bit tricky. I would redo the thermal paste thing... Let me suggest you to put a grain of thermal paste in each part of the processor. Then place the hearsink, press a bit (the way it should end) and lift it up... you should see even marks covering both parts of the processor on the heatsink, and you will learn if there is some part that does not contact well (and maybe needs a bit of extra paste or something..

Regarding the fan, even if you can hear it, you should be able to *feel* the exhaust air to know for sure that it is working and not blocked.

[omegatron]

Regarding the fan, even if you can hear it, you should be able to *feel* the exhaust air to know for sure that it is working and not blocked.

Yes, I can feel the air coming out. I can see through the fins and it is not blocked anymore. The overheating happens quicker than the fan can react, I think.

[omegatron]

It seems like the heatsink is not making proper contact with both parts of the processor.

You were right. I took it all apart again, and when I lifted the heatsink, the grease was only present at two points. Either the heatsink or CPU is slightly concave, so the heatsink is only touching on opposite corners of the CPUs:

http://i.imgur.com/PcYD2h.jpg

In fact, when I tightened it down, I heard an unpleasant scraping sound, which apparently was the corner of the CPU breaking off from all the pressure applied to only one corner. The heatsink had a nick in it, too, which I tried to even out:

http://i.imgur.com/9CejR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6WyGCh.jpg

Then I cleaned all the grease off again, and added more grease this time, removing it again to make sure it was completely coated, and the temperature is staying under 83 °C under the heaviest load I can apply.

https://imgur.com/a/n7isA

[richk]

What you describe can happen if a wire is misrouted and will not allow the heatsink to sit flat

[omegatron]

What you describe can happen if a wire is misrouted and will not allow the heatsink to sit flat

A wire? The heatsink itself isn't flat. It only touches the opposite edges of the two processors.

[BobTeatow]

I recently had similar experiences, see thread at http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 15&start=0 .

I've had other thinkpads with similar problems, seems that my office is dusty enough and the dust is sticky enough that I have to service the fan every so many months.

If you do pull out the fan assembly, be sure to clean the fan blades/fins, top and bottom - mine were gunked up, so even though the copper fins appeared okay, the fan wasn't functioning effectively.

Using TPFancontrol, manual value "127" and my clean fan will crank to over 5500RPM and bring the cores down to 35C. But I normally run the fan in smart mode and since the cleaning the cores are running 45C under light load and up to 88C when doing the Lenovo Toolbox stresstest + full screen netflix on my 1080p monitor.

In my experience, it wasn't necessary to remove/replace the thermal grease - just gently re-spread in the areas the chips touch. Leave the dried out gunked up grease around the edges alone. (Perhaps if I had the right grease on hand, I would have done differently, but I didn't and it all worked out okay.)

Also notice the 1, 2, 3, 4 marking on the top of the heatsink -- that suggests you torque it down carefully, in a zigzag pattern, a little at a time, just like tightening on a car wheel.
Bad idea to crank one screw to the max all at once - you could indeed damage the chips.

[omegatron]

and the temperature is staying under 83 °C under the heaviest load I can apply.

2 years later, and now it's back to 95 °C under heavy load and blue-screening a lot. Not sure if the BSODs are from temperature or not. Grr why did I buy a Thinkpad?

[RealBlackStuff]

T410 are infamous for bad fans.
If you have been using it heavily over the past 2 years, the paste could have dried up again.
I suggest to get a new fan and fresh AS5.

[omegatron]

Oh wait I replaced the fan January 2013, so it's only been 1.5 years.

[Temetka]

You didn't mention, but does you T410 have an Intel or Nvidia GPU? The Nvidia GPU's run hotter than their Intel cousins. With regards to the fan issue you are having:

1. You put on waaay too much TIM on your CPU die. Use 1/3 the amount in your picture.
2. It was already mentioned, but make sure you have proper contact from the HSF to the CPU.
3. Fans die. They are easily and cheaply replaced.

The T410 is a great computer. I love mine very much. I hope you can get you heat issue solved.

[omegatron]

You didn't mention, but does you T410 have an Intel or Nvidia GPU? The Nvidia GPU's run hotter than their Intel cousins. With regards to the fan issue you are having:

1. You put on waaay too much TIM on your CPU die. Use 1/3 the amount in your picture.
2. It was already mentioned, but make sure you have proper contact from the HSF to the CPU.
3. Fans die. They are easily and cheaply replaced.

The T410 is a great computer. I love mine very much. I hope you can get you heat issue solved.

This is how much I put on the last time: https://www.flickr.com/photos/omegatron ... 2723420176 It looks like more than it is. There was a lot more on the heatsink the way it came: https://www.flickr.com/photos/omegatron ... 723420176/ More is not better, Lenovo.

[Cigarguy]

I myself would apply about 1/3 of the TIM you've put on there. Having said that, after two years, it maybe a case of the TIM drying out and no longer performing.

[dr_st]

I myself would apply about 1/3 of the TIM you've put on there. Having said that, after two years, it maybe a case of the TIM drying out and no longer performing.

This "drying out and not performing" does not happen to good TIM, even after 5+ years. Even when it's dry it still performs well. But, yeah, I would put far less.