What thinkpad would you carry...

[wackyD]

What thinkpad would you carry if your job was riding an offroad motorcycle over rutted roads every day to meet with and educate rural populations in matters of health and wellness?

I am a board member for a non-profit working in Honduras. I have worked to supply various Thinkpads to office and Field employees in Honduras.

Recently, two employees who travel daily to promote health have begun using an X22 and a T43 to collect data and present health promotions to the rural villages in our network.

While I am waiting for their feedback, how have Thinkpads performed for you in atypical situations? I find them tougher than most for bumps and bruises, but still vulnerable to poor power conditions and bad batteries.


I will soon outfit three rural clinics in addition to the health promoters with indentical laptops to begin a data collection effort with MS Office products.

I'll soon decide between T4x and T6x unless others have a suggestion. X6X has crossed my mind, but touchpads and optical drives do have a value in this user group.


Thanks for your insight!


Daniel

[RealBlackStuff]

Much as I like various types of Thinkpads, your motorized field workers would be best served with a Panasonic Toughbook.
They are not cheap though, and I can't tell you which model...
Someone else will no doubt chime in with all the gory details!

[Cigarguy]

IMO, for what you are doing, you can't go wrong with Thinkpads. Toughbook will do the trick too but just not feasible nor are they sold and supported in the quantity that TP are. I'm involve with a similar thing with a charity in Cambodia.

We've decided to go mostly the T61 route because:
1) They are more than powerful enough for what we do.
2) Are readily available
3) Are relatively inexpensive (average unit around $200)
4) Getting parts and support for them is second to none (very few laptop brands have forums dedicated specifically to it)
5) They are tough.
6) They are easy to maintain and service (this is very important for us). Hard drive crashed? No problem, replace with another pre-installed HDD from the home office.

[ajkula66]

I'd second the recommendation for taking the ToughBook route.

There's a *lot* of support for them, and while they can be a pain to work on, nothing beats their durability in adverse conditions.

CF-18 or CF-19 would be a good starting point, but you've got quite some reading and figuring out to do before you can comfortably take a dive...

The bottom line is, as long as you get a model which was officially sold on this continent, the drivers and Panasonic's version of HMM will be available.

If you buy a "Let's Note" Japanese unit...may the force be with you.

[wackyD]

George,

I was hoping you would post. Thanks!

I've focused on Thinkpads when buying cheap used machines, since I know them pretty well, but Toughbooks did come to mind when tasked with equipping these folks.

But as you mention, it is a new world to learn. Searching Ebay a bit, I am a little stressed on the costs - but this is certainly a get what you pay for consideration.

I am also mulling over the weight and size. Legendary toughness is thick!

My other big issue I have in the back of my mind is the most common failure failure mode down there is virus related - whether just knocking out the drive with junk or overheating when the virus bogs down the processor and such.

Any guesses on price points for CF-19 with a Core Duo? Or the CF-18 with the fastest PM?


Thanks!

Daniel

I'd second the recommendation for taking the ToughBook route.

There's a *lot* of support for them, and while they can be a pain to work on, nothing beats their durability in adverse conditions.

CF-18 or CF-19 would be a good starting point, but you've got quite some reading and figuring out to do before you can comfortably take a dive...

The bottom line is, as long as you get a model which was officially sold on this continent, the drivers and Panasonic's version of HMM will be available.

If you buy a "Let's Note" Japanese unit...may the force be with you.

[ajkula66]

I'd suggest taking some time to read through the Panasonic forum on NBR, along with copying the section where it's explained what every number/letter in the machine's full model number means...that part alone is worth its weight in gold when shopping for a ToughBook...

No idea on pricing when it comes to any of these, but if I were buying a fully-rugged ToughBook I'd be looking for something that's complete or extremely close to it, since small parts such as HD caddy command hefty premiums.

Do bear in mind that CPUs are soldered and not socketed, so what you get can't be easily upgraded...

The fact that I like about CF-18/19 is that the screen is 10.4" XGA with pen input, which somewhat helps the weight issue. Battery life is usually pretty fabulous as well.

CF-29 which is likely the most common ToughBook around has by far the worst touchpad I've ever encountered on any laptop - at least when it comes to examples from Pentium M era - but are otherwise very usable machines.

Happy researching.

[pianowizard]

I too think you should go with a fully rugged Toughbook. "Business rugged" Toughbooks such as the one in my signature would be no better than the typical Thinkpads.

But to answer your question "Which Thinkpad would you carry?" (i.e. if I were forced to use a Thinkpad in your situation), I would opt for a T30. It's one of the most robust Thinkpads ever made, is reasonably portable and is well within your budget. It's thicker than most of the newer Thinkpads, which further adds to its mechanical strength. Thickness is important for toughness -- notice that Panasonic's fully rugged Toughbooks are very thick and even their business rugged ones are thicker than usual. The downside is most T30s don't have a touchpad and so it would take a while to find one that has it and is affordable. However, according to IBM's tawbook.pdf, all of the models with the two fastest processors (2.2GHz and 2.4 GHz Pentium 4) came with touchpads. If you can find the 2.4GHz model, that would be the ultimate T30 since it also has 1400x1050.

[RealBlackStuff]

If you should go the T30 way and the need arises, I have a keyboard bezel/palmrest with touchpad lying around here.
$15.- shipped within USA.

[jdk]

I carried a T41 to a war zone several years ago, and wrote about it in a different thread. It endured several falls, heat, and sand. It eventually died due to the unrelated ATI graphics issue.

The US military switched to Panasonic Toughbooks shortly after that, mostly because of fears that lenovo is a Chinese-owned company.

The new X130e is built with durability in mind, but I have not heard much about real-world use cases. It has stronger hinges, a rubberized edge, and a thicker reinforced case.

[wackyD]

After spending a few hours on the ToughBooks page and signing up to NBR, I'm thinking I aspire to toughbooks, but start with Thinkpads.

I spent last week in Honduras working through five year, one year and six month plans for our Health programs. For the very short term, thinkpads are in my wheelhouse. We are dealing with entry level computer users, just learning the value of laptops - while the Toughbook could handle most any physical attack or accident, the very low cost T4x system can allow for more painful lessons (loss, allowing virus attacks, etc), with a minimum capital outlay, hopefully learning to value the machines as we work to replace the first field units with rugged units in years 3-4 of a five year plan. Of course by that point, the CF-19 with core series processors may be affordable, or obsolete.

SO, now I will be in the market for 2-3 T43 (or 42) machines, with no sign of GPU/Southbridge issues and good 9-cell batteries and chargers. Ideally, some or all chargers would be the AC/DC variety, as at least one clinic is not yet on the grid and charging by solar or vehicle is not out of the question.

I'll also need to find 9-cell batteries for the other in use machines, as the flush batteries in place are fairly short lived in this context.


I think my biggest issue may be finding good batteries at a good price, as the hardware should be fairly affordable, but battery cells are battery cells.


My wife will soon notice the addition of another forum into my late night reading - hope she doesn't start reading this one to see my plans!


Thanks!!!

Daniel

[ajkula66]

SO, now I will be in the market for 2-3 T43 (or 42) machines, with no sign of GPU/Southbridge issues and good 9-cell batteries and chargers. Ideally, some or all chargers would be the AC/DC variety, as at least one clinic is not yet on the grid and charging by solar or vehicle is not out of the question.

I'd be looking into T43 or R52 with Intel graphics, since I doubt that the extra oomph of ATi is required for your line of work. They'll return better battery life and generally behave in a more reliable manner.

Happy shopping.

[pianowizard]

SO, now I will be in the market for 2-3 T43 (or 42) machines

I thought you wanted tough laptops, no? Based on my experience, the T40/41/42 weren't tough enough even for standard office use and the T43 was only a little better. If you already had two to three T43's, then of course it would make sense to just use them, but since you still haven't bought these laptops, I strongly urge you to think twice. How powerful will these machines need to be? What's your exact budget? Must you run Windows XP or could you use an older OS?

[EasyMac308]

Got to agree with pianowizard. There's a lot to love about the T43, but the T40 and T42 have the greatest failure rate of any thinkpads I've dealt with in any quantity.

Depending on the exact needs of your users I'd be inclined to go more the T60/T61 route. They're a bit more recent, and as long as you're selective with the manufacture date and/or chipset, should be good for years to come. Add a good hard case and keep a spare or two on hand and I think you'd be in good shape.

[RealBlackStuff]

If the requirements are low, maybe a T23 would do?
Using PCMCIA wifi cards (or the rather rare internal wifi), those machines are quite cheap, and definitely a lot sturdier than the T43.
I have a few that I could let you have for a reasonable price.

[wackyD]

Well...

Hmmmm, I don't have all that much experience with the T4x series.

My first Thinkpad was a T40 that I used for a few years before passing it off to a family member - not sure where it is now. From there, I used an X31 for several years before passing it along as well - it is still chugging along. From there, used an X60s that is still my traveling machine which has survived drops, hot tempertures, planes, trains and automobiles. My X61 and my wife's T61 do not travel much.

The processing requirements are quite low - microsoft office, web browsing and playing DVDs for health demonstrations. T42 or better should be more than adequate with a Pentium M.

Battery life is key, no doubt.

The rough and tough part comes in transit and from inexperienced users doing foolish things. In typical use, the machines should be sitting on a desk or other reasonable surface.

The current equipment in a similar role is a Tecra M2 and a Lenovo C100 as well as an X22. The M2 was recently taken out of service due to overheating after three years of use (after being revived from my company's recycle pile).

For me the travel is not too different from a student riding a mountain bike around campus.

To extend battery life, I have pondered the following - http://www.tekkeon.com/products-mypowerall.html or perhaps a solar panel. Around $120 a pop - probably need one, but would like three.

I'd want six good primary batteries to maximize useable computing time.

The requested budget over the next few years was anticipated by others to be $1500. There is around $1000 that might be available in a gift designated for things such as this, but I may not be able to get it all.

Needed software is available at little to no cost for our purposes.

So let's say I have $800 to spend to start. There is already one T43 in use and one T43 and one T42 available. I also have a T60 with a line of dead pixels across the screen and a dead battery in need of replacement.

One external battery plus 5/6 batteries would probably be $400 of that budget, leaving $400 for machines - assuming $90 each for good T43's complete less batteries, I get four machines. Assuming $125 for T60's, I get three machines.


Could I beat these numbers from someone with really good batteries in basic T60 machines? I'd love to.

Can I get five (or six) well equipped, complete T60's with IBM graphics and nearly new batteries and ac/dc chargers for $600 (leaving room for one spare battery and the external battery)?

I've bought effectively bare bones T60's for around $100 and have piles of 512MB pieces of DDR2, but five complete machines for $120 each seems like a stretch.

Then again, five $90 or so T43's will cost just a little less but be a big step down in machine.


Should I float a want to buy ad in the Sales Forums with my budget and specs?


Thanks!!!

Daniel

[jdk]

Consider the R series if budget is tight. I just got an eBayed 15" R61e, 2GB for $70 shipped, with battery but missing a HDD (another $30 for a used but still under warranty WD Scorpio Black). If you play your cards right you might be able to negotiate four complete R60's or R61's for $100 each.

[ajkula66]

Consider the R series if budget is tight.

+1 and the some.

Dan, what's the screen size of that T60 that has a line of bad pixels? I might be able to help you there...

[wackyD]

George, the T60 is a 4:3 XGA currently. I am not 100% sure when it went from a well running machine with few if any flaws, to a non-booting (bad memory) machine with a dead battery and a line of dead pixels. Not sure if dead is the right word - they show up as either white or black - typically the opposite of the expected color, but don't seem to change is you pass the cursor over the area.

My guess after watching the user shut down the comupter he currently uses is that after starting the shut down sequence, he closed the lid, sending the machine to hibernation, then the power went out, leaving the machine to fully drain the battery in hibernation, leading to a dead battery and no boot. BUT, something also lunched the boot sector, though he may have done so using a USB enclosure to grab his data after all this. Once one of the memory modules was pulled, it booted just fine, with or without the bad battery.

Tearing it down, reseating the lcd cable had no effect on the line.


Looking on the Bay, I can get R60 machines (4:3, XGA) with "tested good" batteries but no HD/caddy/cover/power adapter for about $70 shipped. Any pitfalls with the R60 line? Or should I hold out for R61's if I can find the deals jdk found?

The thicker R series might be perfect - I have already heard mubles about how people wish they could have better machines like the T60's - maybe the clunkier R60's can look a little less exciting.

Anyone on the board known for R series sales?


Thanks!

Daniel

+1 and the some.

Dan, what's the screen size of that T60 that has a line of bad pixels? I might be able to help you there...

[RealBlackStuff]

You need to specify 14.1" or 15" LCD for that T60.

You could perhaps contact underclocker (Ed), he sells machines like that regularly.
Or check with ajkula66 (George), who also can get his hands on the good stuff.

[pianowizard]

The thicker R series might be perfect

I agree. Like I said before, thickness adds to the structural integrity of a laptop. A major problem with the T4* was that it was the first time IBM had tried to make a large-footprint laptop so thin, causing the bottom chassis to flex easily. It's easier to make small laptops thin though, and so the X40/41 were actually quite robust.

The R6* was very well built, much better than both the R5* and R3* in my opinion (I have no experience with the R4*). The downside is that the R6* was heavier than the T6*, so I think it would make sense to get a 14" model instead of 15".

Looking on the Bay, I can get R60 machines (4:3, XGA) with "tested good" batteries but no HD/caddy/cover/power adapter for about $70 shipped. Any pitfalls with the R60 line? Or should I hold out for R61's if I can find the deals jdk found?

If you want good eBay deals, be very patient and check often. Check both auctions and Buy-It-Now's. For example, several weeks ago, I snagged my Gateway NX860X (17" WUXGA, 500GB HDD, Core2 Duo, 2GB RAM) off eBay for $90 shipped. The hard drive alone is worth like $50.

The R61 was even better built than the R60 IMO, and your clients might appreciate the widescreen.

UPDATE: This $82 shipped Panasonic Toughbook W4 (12.1", 2.98 lbs, 160GB HDD, 1GB RAM, internal CDRW/DVD-ROM combo drive) seems like a good deal: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-Tough ... 19d4737882 . It's not fully rugged, but considering the price, very long battery duration, touchpad, DVD drive and super light weight, it might work perfectly for you.

[jdk]

Don't be afraid to use the "Make offer" button if available. I usually double the amount I want to reduce the price by, so that the seller and I "meet in the middle" at what I deem a fair price. Patience is key as well, especially with Thinkpads; instead of the price of a Thinkpad being linear and sloped downward, prices are influenced heavily by the supply from businesses offloading old corporate machines. I waited about a month and a half between my X30 dying and purchasing the R61e replacement.

One other thing you have on your side is that you are buying in bulk. You may be able to find a dealer who will give you a discount based on the fact that you want four of them.

[ThinkRob]

The US military switched to Panasonic Toughbooks shortly after that, mostly because of fears that lenovo is a Chinese-owned company.

Naturally, the IBM hardware produced in China for the four years prior to that was of no concern...

Back on topic: I second the Toughbook recommendation. ThinkPads are durable business computers, but they can't compete with actual ruggedized notebooks.

[pianowizard]

wackyD, here's THE perfect T60 for you: http://67.214.227.38/~thinkpad/forum/vi ... 1&t=105847 . The trackpoint doesn't work but the touchpad does. Hopefully you will be the one buying it.

[underclocker]

In that price range (about $100 for a good complete machine), the 14" R60 & T60 make the most sense. They are solid and easily fixed, too. Buying used, the battery is the biggest concern, since genuine Lenovo replacements are somewhat expensive and hard to correctly select.

After that, my preferred model is the T410. It's just so much more powerful and better designed than the 14" R400/T400 models. However, the T410's are still about $400.

I've had good luck with the Edge 14, Edge 15 and Edge E420 models, and they can be had in the $250 and up range, but they are not as durable as the high end ThinkPads. However, they are current, like the T410. But, they scratch, wear and crack more more quickly and easily. Not great for the field.

[wackyD]

wackyD, here's THE perfect T60 for you: http://67.214.227.38/~thinkpad/forum/vi ... 1&t=105847 . The trackpoint doesn't work but the touchpad does. Hopefully you will be the one buying it.

How did I miss that?!?!?!?

Thanks for the heads up - I was too busy working at work instead of focusing on the Forum. I checked ebay a few times, but should have been here!

[wackyD]

Well folks, I am still working to center up on the right spot, but the first round of this will be Thinkpads. I am also going a bit away from my requirement for identical machines - though for most end users I will work with, the difference in a T43 and a T60 is the power plug is not the same - hopefully they would notice that.

With nearly idenitcal looking machines, I think I will be good.

Right now, I have bought a test R60 and picked up a very cheap barebones T60. I also snagged a couple of loss leader SSD's from Newegg the other day and I am pretty impressed with the T60 running with the SSD.

Batteries are still the big challenge.

I'm thinking an external battery in addition to a new (maybe generic) 9-cell would probably get it for those working off grid all day but able to charge at night, but for the locations with no power, maybe build my own stoarge setup with a battery box sized for a 12v motorcycle battery, combined with a small solar panel. Then using a car charger, be able to offer some recharge or reserve power. Of come up with a schedule for other folks to drop off charged batteries to the nurse in the powerless clinic throughout the week.


Thanks again all for the input. I wish I had not missed the other cheap T60 above - pm or email if you see any other great deals!

Thanks!!!!!

Daniel Toon

[craigmontHunter]

My reccomendation would have been a T/R60 with a cheap ssd - I don't think you will find a more durable system outside a toughbook from there, in any respect (my T61 has been tortured enough that I feel confident saying that). In regards to the batteries, I'm not sure what sort of a setup you have, but if you could wire a solar panel and power inverter (12v - 110), you may be able to set up a local charging station wherever you need - unfortunately I don't have any more specifics, but I do know a guy who got a solar panel designed to keep a car battery up during shipment for cheap - maybe see what you can find for that?

[EasyMac308]

I think you'd be well served picking up 12V power adapters for your laptops (commonly called Auto/Air adapters). With those, you could power your laptops from any 12V source, such as a car battery, solar-powered battery bank, etc. It gives you a lot of options for working with off-grid power.

[Ferrario500]

Think pad X1 carbon is best for carrying.

[Tim-ANC]

T60. I also snagged a couple of loss leader SSD's from Newegg the other day and I am pretty impressed with the T60 running with the SSD.

A T60 with an SSD? Intriguing. What did it cost and what OS on it?