Staying with the "real" TPs: advice needed

[Orclas]

Executive summary:
If I want to achieve the most quiet (pretty much = coolest I guess) solution, which is the best start out, a T43 or a T6x?


Background
I have an old T40 which I love. Equipped with a PATA SSD (which works ok'ish), downclocked GPU, undervolted CPU and NHC for fan control, it's quiet most of the time of my light normal use, albeit quite loud when the fan does run. When it started displaying symptoms of SB failure, I first pondered fixing it, but decided that any platform lacking SATA support was too much of a dead end.

I then searched for a quiet and reasonably priced replacement and ended up with a used T400. Fitted with an SSD, the T400 is indeed quiet (also when the fan runs) and has quite good performance for my needs, but I just can't come to terms with the touch and feel aspects of if, which is further worsened by the fact that it has a Chicony keyboard, whereas the T40 has a wonderful NMB. This led me to to purchase a replacement MB from RBS's Boardroom and the T40 still being my prefered surf and type machine, with the occasional grunt over PATA SSD stuttering and lackluster performance.

The thought
Having read about RBS's success in converting T43Ps to SATA - and a few other things about frankenpadding etc - I am now toying with the idea of finding a way to stay with the kind of Thinkpads I like the best, either via a T6x or a SATA modded T43. From what I understand T6x is pretty much the same shell and feel, but I've never used one. I'm also under the expression that the T6x have more heat and noise challenges than T4x, but I'd rather rule the T6x out based on your insightful input than my own assumptions.

Criteria
- quiet is the goal, achieved either by cool components and/or less noisy fan (+SSD)
- performance is secondary, light surf and office work (may be loud when youtubing)
- I prefer 14.1" screen, SXGA if I can get my hands on a good one
- if necessary I may piece it together from parts (particularly if choosing a T43 since the MB will need to stop by RBS or poshgeordie)


Questions
- which machine would provide me with the best start?
- which motherboards would be go/no-go?
- ATI or Intel GPU? NHC can downclock ATI vs Intel doesn't have problems (afaik).
- I guess any thoughts of SXGA+ is out for 14.1"?

Any and all comments are most appreciated.

[RealBlackStuff]

Your closest and probably best bet would be a 4:3 T61 with 14.1" SXGA+ screen and Intel graphics.
Some are Penryn CPU capable and with a 64-bit OS, can handle up to 8GB RAM.
They are rare, but you could also buy such a machine with (a broken?) XGA and upgrade the LCD to SXGA+.
Apply Middleton's BIOS, run an SSD in it at SATA II speed, and you'd be grand for several years to come!

[Orclas]

Thanks!

And that will be quieter than anything achievable with a T43? And how rare are 4:3, Intel GPU, "anyGA" Penryn t61s generally speaking?

I assume the grandeur of Penryn is the 45nm and related low TDP? 64-bit capability would surely be an unexpected cherry on the cake

[ajkula66]

Thanks!

And that will be quieter than anything achievable with a T43? And how rare are 4:3, Intel GPU, "anyGA" Penryn t61s generally speaking?

I assume the grandeur of Penryn is the 45nm and related low TDP? 64-bit capability would surely be an unexpected cherry on the cake

Any T61 board/CPU is 64-bit capable, but the Penryns are better-loved by most users due to their lower power consumption and improved performance, especially on higher-end ones such as T9300/9500.

I'd say that an Intel-based T61 will be as quiet as an Intel-based T43 (which is *very* quiet until pushed hard) but a far more capable and modern package. You're looking at 8GB theoretical max (not that many people need that much) vs. 2GB on T43. That's a pretty big difference right there...not to mention 64-bit vs. 32-bit architecture and all of that good stuff...

As much as I love T43/p, one has to go serious distance to keep them running side-by-side with modern machines...

[Orclas]

Performance and large RAM is quite secondary - had it not been for the crappy PATA SSD I'd be content with the T40 for a while still - but you're still spot on about it simply being a much more modern platform. Particularly the "native" SATA support of course, but also 64-bit capability, which I honestly hadn't even thought of in this context.

Just double checking: touch and feel of t6x same as a T4x?

May add that I just found an add in the marketplace for a 14.1/4:3/Intel GPU/Penryn capable T61 motherboard. Looks unsold (have sent a PM to check). If unsold, I guess I am looking at some serious forth & back debates with myself regarding the idea of paying just a little less ($200) for a motherboard as most used T61s sell for...

[ajkula66]

Just double checking: touch and feel of t6x same as a T4x?

Close, yes. The same - no.

[Cigarguy]

If touch and feel is important, the best way is to get a hold of one and touch and feel till your heart is content and/or discontent. No one will be able to tell you otherwise.

All local B&M stores in my location have no problem with me spending some time on their display models. Especially used models. My first T61 was bought a few months ago. It was listed for $195 but they let it go for $150. I played with it for a hour and they also have a 7 days no question return if I don't like it. The keyboard and ergonomics was the selling point for me.

[Orclas]

Close, yes. The same - no.

Argh! I thought I was just about ready to choose route

Cigarguy: That is true, the problem is that there are very few proper stores selling used laptops in Stockholm (most second hand stuff is sold online). I also have a very solid reference point in my T40 - which I think is fully shared and understood by a bunch of folks here - so when ajkula says "close, but not same", there's a very high probability that it would be my own impression as well.

[RealBlackStuff]

My daughter has such an exact 14.1" SXGA+ T61 machine at university.
In a (college) world where Macs and other flimsy lightweights seem to dominate, her T61 stands out and is outstanding enough to get regular questions asked about it.
It's maybe not as elegant as a Mac, but that T61 will last her the 4 years of college, which cannot be said for those Macs.
You could also look for a same-size R61, optically there is no difference, both having the 'rubberized' lid.

[ajkula66]

Argh! I thought I was just about ready to choose route

I also have a very solid reference point in my T40 - which I think is fully shared and understood by a bunch of folks here - so when ajkula says "close, but not same", there's a very high probability that it would be my own impression as well.

I just realized that you own a T400 as well. That machine shares the keyboard with T6x series, so that alone should give you some type of an idea. Everything else that you could possibly compare between the T4x and T6x is really not that much different. A T40 would likely feel a bit more stiff than a T6x, generally speaking, but that's about it.

My $0.02 only...

[Orclas]

I just realized that you own a T400 as well. That machine shares the keyboard with T6x series, so that alone should give you some type of an idea. Everything else that you could possibly compare between the T4x and T6x is really not that much different. A T40 would likely feel a bit more stiff than a T6x, generally speaking, but that's about it.

My $0.02 only...

Your two cents are on the other hand worth a lot

Same keyboard as T400 might be an anti-sell point... OK, my T400 does have a crappy Chicony (T40 has NMB), but it also has quite a bit of flex that adds to the less than favourable impression. Is the flex fully keyboard related, or does it in any way depend on the machine it's installed on?

RBS: Thanks for the input and tip about R61, it adds to the search if I go the x6x route.

Now I really wish I knew someone with a T6x so I could try it out. It is indeed the solid/stiff quality feeling of my T40 that I'm after, and I guess the question is how far I can take the trade off 'solid vs modern' and still be happy. After project T40 SSD (+MB replacement) and modern computer part I (leading to the T400 purchase) has part "failed", I really want to get it right this time

[RealBlackStuff]

You can also get an Alps or an NMB keyboard for your T400.
And going through the T400 forum, someone has found how to get rid of the KB-flex in that machine.
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78629

[dr_st]

I just realized that you own a T400 as well. That machine shares the keyboard with T6x series, so that alone should give you some type of an idea.

T400 shares keyboard compatibility with T6x series, however the stock keyboards were very different. T400/500 is the generation when Lenovo introduced the "swiss cheese" keyboard compared to the solid backplate design of the previous models. Unless Orclas had a T6x keyboard retrofitted, chances are he owns one of these swiss cheese keyboard. Generally they are regarded as somewhat inferior, with more flex being the exact issue. My limited experience with T400 models agrees with this assessment.

A T40 would likely feel a bit more stiff than a T6x, generally speaking, but that's about it.

A very accurate description. Comparing apples to apples (NMB to NMB) I still find the T42 keyboard offering a stiffer (and in this, a bit better) feel than my T60 keyboard. However, this does not mean that the T60 keyboard is anything short of excellent (especially after the rubber sticky tape mod).

[Orclas]

Well, judging by the comments about wanting to get a T61 keyboard for their T400, it sounds like the T61s are better than the T400s. I'll dig a bit into that.

Trust me, I've tried to find an NMB for my T400. The problem is that I want Swedish layout (i.e. Swedish/Finnish) and there just aren't really any to find. I keep an eye on the relevant Swedish online marketplaces, but rarely are any keyboards sold, nor any reasonably priced sold-for-parts machines. I've really only seen one and it definitely had an NMB keyboard. I could tell since it had a few keys missing, blue pads where they used to be

Since keyboard may be one deciding factor, I should perhaps just ask in the T6x forum about this particular detail. I guess I could live with a slightly less solid chassis, but not in combination with a flexier keyboard (at least not without finding a way to test it out myself).

[Orclas]

T400 shares keyboard compatibility with T6x series, however the stock keyboards were very different. T400/500 is the generation when Lenovo introduced the "swiss cheese" keyboard compared to the solid backplate design of the previous models. Unless Orclas had a T6x keyboard retrofitted, chances are he owns one of these swiss cheese keyboard. Generally they are regarded as somewhat inferior, with more flex being the exact issue. My limited experience with T400 models agrees with this assessment.

A very accurate description. Comparing apples to apples (NMB to NMB) I still find the T42 keyboard offering a stiffer (and in this, a bit better) feel than my T60 keyboard. However, this does not mean that the T60 keyboard is anything short of excellent (especially after the rubber sticky tape mod).

Thanks a bunch, that was a most welcome and appreciated clarification.

I must say I love this forum, so many helpful members, so much good info and advice. I'm really grateful to all of you taking your time to help me out.

[Raceboy]

I have them all at the moment: T42 with NMB kb, T60p with NMB kb and 14.1 SXGA+ Intel VGA T61 with NMB kb. The difference in feel is basically non-existant but I tried Alps on the T60p once for comparison and the difference was noticeable. Can't even imagine how it would feel with Chicony.

I had a T400 with Chicony about a year ago and while it was horrible at start (keyboard flex!) after little modification with rubber tape it was much better.

[Initial D]

Your closest and probably best bet would be a 4:3 T61 with 14.1" SXGA+ screen and Intel graphics.
Apply Middleton's BIOS, run an SSD in it at SATA II speed, and you'd be grand for several years to come!

Owning both T43 and T61 (both SXGA+), I 100% agree with this.

[Orclas]

I have them all at the moment: T42 with NMB kb, T60p with NMB kb and 14.1 SXGA+ Intel VGA T61 with NMB kb. The difference in feel is basically non-existant but I tried Alps on the T60p once for comparison and the difference was noticeable. Can't even imagine how it would feel with Chicony.

I had a T400 with Chicony about a year ago and while it was horrible at start (keyboard flex!) after little modification with rubber tape it was much better.

Awesome and great input, thanks!

If the difference between a T42 and T60 (NMB) is "basically non-existant" when going directly from one to the other, that will certainly be enough for me. I just want to avoid the more or less obvious feeling of not-as-good.

Now seeing T6x as the most probable route, one final question (given that a T61 MB can be dropped in a T60 chassis): is there any difference between T60 and T61 from a build & touch-and-feel perspective. I guess keyboard is part included in that question, given that finding a SE-FI NMB keyboard may be a hazzle (and at least a bit of a challenge unless the machine bought already has one).

And by all means, feel free to drop a note about any other relevant differences and considerations when choosing between the T6xs.

[RealBlackStuff]

T60/T61 can use the same keyboards, so absolutely no difference.
The 14.1" T61 machines have a slightly offset LCD bezel, left side is a bit wider than right side.
T61 and R61 in 14.1" look identical, down to both having a rubberized lid.
The T61 is slightly thicker than its T60 counterpart, but we're only talking millimeters here.
T61 can be modded to SATA II speed, T60 cannot.
T61 can have up to 8GB, the T60 up to 4GB.
The CPUs in T61 are a newer generation than the T60.

[Orclas]

Thanks RBS, looks like most differences are motherboard related, which can be swapped out.

One minor follow up double check (seeing that T61 is slightly thicker than T60), T61 MBs does fit into T60s, right?

[ajkula66]

One minor follow up double check (seeing that T61 is slightly thicker than T60), T61 MBs does fit into T60s, right?

Yep, with some finagling and a loss of 56K modem in the process.

[Orclas]

Yep, with some finagling and a loss of 56K modem in the process.

Finagling?? I had to look that up, never ever heard the word before

56k modem I can live without, it's pretty 20th century.

And thanks

[RealBlackStuff]

ONLY the 14.1" 4:3 size motherboards will fit in a 15" T60, the widescreen T61 version does NOT.

[Orclas]

And 14.1 4:3 T61 MB => 14.1 4:3 T60 chassis?

I'd better know what combos are go and no-go before starting considering purchases and given I want a Penryn capable board, I'd be down to T61 MB & chassis if above is not possible.

[Raceboy]

Only 14.1 4:3 T61 or T61p system boards are suitable and you can use them on either 14.1 or 15.0 4:3 T60 or T60p.