A reflection on thinkpads, and their users

[QWERTY Andreas]

Hello
A lot of people have been quite mad at lenovo, for quite some time. Blaming them for destroying the "think"-brand.
Most of the people think that the screen quality is too bad, compared to the former TPs. The build quality of many of the new models, are not as goods. The new chiclet keyboards layout.. The list goes on.

I have had a lot of top model of thinkpads, and i will list them here, thats where my expereince come from:

- T43 15" and 14"
- T60P 15", 4:3, flexview
- T61P, 2xT61. All 15.4"
- W500
- W510
- X220 tablet

So i haven't seen the newest keyboards, but else the W5X0 are identical.

The build quality: The T43 is a nice machine, so is the T60P. However the new W5X0 are just as good. They doesnt have keyboard (EDIT: im try to say "motherboard flex") Flex, like the T43s (a common problem).
Overall the W510 and onward, didnt have any major problems, like the T4X, with MB Flex and GPUs failing. They dont "feel" as nice.. But really. They are on par-quality wise, b/c roll Cage, CFRP lid etc.

The screenresolution: The old TPs had HORRIBLE resolutions! 1024x768? what is that?!
The new TPs, got a good resoltion. But you have to pay Premium for that. Just like the old ones... The new T430U doesnt have FHD.. But if you go back to IBM time, you WOULD NOT get a good screen for that Price.

The screen quality: "My new T4X0 is not as good as my old T60p IPS". Well thats true.. But the flexview was 15". Compare to a well configured FHD display, of a W510, and see that they both got a very nice display. The 14" T43s, got either horrible low resolutions or decent resolutions. But not IPS.

"The retina MBP got a better screen". Yes. that is true. But lenovo is known for "reliability". Try to take a Google on "retina burn in problem", and you will see that this display isn't very reliable. Would lenovo offer junk-HW that doesnt Work ? Nope.


The overall problem, is that people are comparing their new "low price" thinkpads to their old Premium models.

I want to debate the new thinkpads.. what is your opinion?

[dr_st]

The only problem I have with the new Thinkpads is the keyboard layout change in the new *30 series, which is likely to stay, probably because some idiot manager at Lenovo has too much ego attached to this decision. I will not buy a new Thinkpad while this stays and can only hope that a few large customers are going to shy away from Lenovo enough to hurt them economically. But I am not holding my breath.

Other than that - I have no problems with the new machines. They are quite nice. The *61/*00 generation was too ugly for my taste, but it was remedied in the *10/*20 series.

One comment about you saying "W510 and onward did not have any major problems". IMO it's too early to determine this or that. These systems are not even 3 years old, and longevity is to be judged over a longer period of time.

[Cigarguy]

Keyboard is a most important feature for me on any computer, desktop or laptop. TP's keyboards were considered to be the industry best which led me to seek out such keyboard. After trying one for about a 1/2 hour in a store, my love affair with TP began. Then Lenovo decided to switch the keyboard on me and in the process lost, to my eyes, the one single most distinctive feature about a TP versus anything else out there.

Again, I reiterate, Lenovo could have offered the option of old style vs new style keyboard if they wanted to without to much difficulty.

[QWERTY Andreas]

Again, I reiterate, Lenovo could have offered the option of old style vs new style keyboard if they wanted to without to much difficulty.

I know the layout is different. However all other manufactores have a bad layout.
But other than that, i have only heard good response - from people who have tried it.

Is the keys worse, or is it just the different layout? Have you tried the new keyboard?

Best regards

[Cigarguy]

Used a T430 for about a week for business then I asked the IT guys for a T420 instead. Fortunately we still have some T420 kicking around. To me the keyboard is a deal breaker where as screen quality not so much so.

Layout is the big difference and it also feels cheaper to me.

That's my point, in changing the keyboard they have become just like any other manufacturer. And as you say they all have "bad layout".

[pianowizard]

But other than that, i have only heard good response - from people who have tried it.

Where have you been, on another planet? Lots and lots and lots of people who have tried the new Thinkpad keyboard HATE it.

That's my point, in changing the keyboard they have become just like any other manufacturer. And as you say they all have "bad layout".

Yep, they are all the same now, except perhaps Apple. But I guess I should thank Lenovo, Dell, HP and others for ruining all their laptop designs, because they cured my obsessive-compulsive laptop shopping behavior that lasted for almost a decade.

[ajkula66]

Hello
A lot of people have been quite mad at lenovo, for quite some time. Blaming them for destroying the "think"-brand.
Most of the people think that the screen quality is too bad, compared to the former TPs. The build quality of many of the new models, are not as goods. The new chiclet keyboards layout.. The list goes on.

The build quality: The T43 is a nice machine, so is the T60P. However the new W5X0 are just as good. They doesnt have keyboard Flex, like the T43s (a common problem).

Keyboard flex on a T4x? Really? I don't think so. More likely on a T400...

The screenresolution: The old TPs had HORRIBLE resolutions! 1024x768? what is that?!
The new TPs, got a good resoltion. But you have to pay Premium for that. Just like the old ones... The new T430U doesnt have FHD.. But if you go back to IBM time, you WOULD NOT get a good screen for that Price.

Huh. No. Very wrong, here's why:

a) 770 series was offered with a 13.7" SXGA (1280x1024) resolution...almost 15 years ago

b) T21 was offered with a 14" SXGA+ (1400x1050) as were all subsequent T series while the 4:3 format was available. This was in either 2000 or 2001

c) A21p and A22p were offered with 15" UXGA (1600x1200) panels that were not IPS but excellent quality TN screens. This is '99 into '00.

d) R50p was offered with an optional 15" QXGA (2048x1536) IPS FlexView LCD. A.D. 2004.

Now, if you care to elaborate on why a 1600x900 on a 14" would be superior to 1400x1050 when applied to a notebook computer, I'd love to hear that argument. Haven't heard it from Lenovo or any other laptop manufacturer yet. Watching movies is not an acceptable defense in my book.

The screen quality: "My new T4X0 is not as good as my old T60p IPS". Well thats true.. But the flexview was 15". Compare to a well configured FHD display, of a W510, and see that they both got a very nice display.

Not even close. An old client of mine sent back his brand new W530 once he saw my LED-modded T43p. Not kidding.

"The retina MBP got a better screen". Yes. that is true. But lenovo is known for "reliability". Try to take a Google on "retina burn in problem", and you will see that this display isn't very reliable. Would lenovo offer junk-HW that doesnt Work ? Nope.

Dell and HP also offer IPS panels that are vastly superior to *any* Lenovo offerings. HP's DreamColor was also available in 1920x1200 for quite some time on 17" models...there's a zillion of Lenovo-related issues that could be Googled as well, such as "screen door effect"...and many more...

The overall problem, is that people are comparing their new "low price" thinkpads to their old Premium models

No. The problem is that people compare machines that were ahead of the curve in most respects to unsuccessful Apple clones that Lenovo is currently building.

I want to debate the new thinkpads.. what is your opinion?

Lenovo was on somewhat of a right track with the *20 series and then royally messed up with the keyboard change...most of the old-time ThinkPad users hate the new keyboard with a passion...

[dr_st]

Quoted for truth:

Lenovo decided to switch the keyboard on me and in the process lost, to my eyes, the one single most distinctive feature about a TP versus anything else out there.

I guess I should thank Lenovo, Dell, HP and others for ruining all their laptop designs, because they cured my obsessive-compulsive laptop shopping behavior that lasted for almost a decade.

The problem is that people compare machines that were ahead of the curve in most respects to unsuccessful Apple clones that Lenovo is currently building.

[wkw]

You guys make me regret buying the T530 >.<
Stop it. I'm fine with the keyboard, just that I don't fancy having page up/down on the arrow keys and had to remap it to back/forward.
Stop making me regret!

[pianowizard]

Stop making me regret!

As long as you like it, it is a good laptop. In fact, we are jealous that you like it -- you are the lucky guy here, and we wish we were you. Look at my signature: I am stuck with old laptops because newer ones simply wouldn't work for me.

[Ibthink]

You guys make me regret buying the T530 >.<
Stop it. I'm fine with the keyboard, just that I don't fancy having page up/down on the arrow keys and had to remap it to back/forward.
Stop making me regret!

Don´t let them make you regretting your purchase. I think it is a very fine laptop.

Think of it in the way pianowizard described: We can be happy that we are not stuck to old notebooks as they are. They have a really big problem: In some years, when the old laptops are to lame/old or when they stop functioning, they have no real alternative and a big problem to find a new laptop. Be happy for your freedom!

Now, if you care to elaborate on why a 1600x900 on a 14" would be superior to 1400x1050 when applied to a notebook computer, I'd love to hear that argument. Haven't heard it from Lenovo or any other laptop manufacturer yet. Watching movies is not an acceptable defense in my book.

Sorry, but 1600x900 is 1000% better in one discipline: Multitasking. Multitasking with 1400 Pixel horizontally is no fun. You need at last 1600 Pixel to have to Windows side-by-side.

Also, on new systems with Windows 8, the horizontal pixels are very important (because Modern UI uses side-scrolling).

.there's a zillion of Lenovo-related issues that could be Googled as well, such as "screen door effect"...and many more...

The screen-door-effect in fact no Lenovo-related issue. For example, see here: HP EliteBook 8470w Notebook - Notebookcheck
"A fine grid that covers the entire surface of the LG screen is noticed directly after turning on the test model. This is seen so clearly that it gets very annoying after a while, especially when text is displayed. This trait is not as severe when looking at pictures or watching movies. In our opinion, the overall picture quality is affected to such an extent that many users might find it interfering."
It seems to be a common issue on some LG screens.

As mentioned, other manufactures have also problems with their screens, see it: MacBook Pro Retina display burn-in? And that is a high-qualitiy IPS display. The world is not as black and white as it seems sometimes.

@QWERTY Andreas,
thanks for your post. I think you are right in the most aspects.

[pianowizard]

Think of it in the way pianowizard described: We can be happy that we are not stuck to old notebooks as they are. They have a really big problem: In some years, when the old laptops are to lame/old or when they stop functioning, they have no real alternative and a big problem to find a new laptop. Be happy for your freedom!

But let me clarify one thing:I use my desktops >90% of the time anyway, and I am extremely pleased with my desktops and their monitors. So, being stuck with old laptops isn't such a big deal for me. Nonetheless, I am jealous of you guys!

As mentioned, other manufactures have also problems with their screens, see it: MacBook Pro Retina display burn-in? And that is a high-qualitiy IPS display. The world is not as black and white as it seems sometimes.

Just because a problem is universal doesn't make it a non-problem though. Like I said earlier, all laptops on the market right now are disappointing, not just Thinkpads.

[Ibthink]

But let me clarify one thing:I use my desktops >90% of the time anyway, and I am extremely pleased with my desktops and their monitors. So, being stuck with old laptops isn't such a big deal for me. Nonetheless, I am jealous of you guys!

Yes. But try to use a desktop mobile. A notebook is so much more flexible.

And I also use a desktop keyboard (Unicomp) and a desktop-monitor (Eizo, second display). My ThinkPad sits in its docking-station. I love this configuration, because I can use my ThinkPad as a desktop, but I also have the possibility to just take my notebook out of the docking-station and use it downstairs at the couch for example. Thats what desktops can not do, and consumer-notebooks can neither do this, because they lack the docking port.

Just because a problem is universal doesn't make it a non-problem though.

It was not my intention to say that. I just wanted to clarify that this is in fact not a Lenovo-releated or Lenovo-only issue, as ajkula66 claimed. This is just wrong, and the Elitebook also is a workstation-class machine. So it is not only Lenovo using those displays. I think it is just LG who screwed up something in the production.

[pianowizard]

Yes. But try to use a desktop mobile. A notebook is so much more flexible.

Oh no, please don't say that, because you are making me regret having bought my desktop computers! Just kidding, LOL!

And I also use a desktop keyboard (Unicomp) and a desktop-monitor (Eizo, second display). My ThinkPad sits in its docking-station.

You see, I don't like this arrangement, because it takes up too much space on my desk, it's hard to hook up four monitors, and laptop hard drives are limited to 2TB. And if I did this in my office at work, I would need to remove the laptop at the end of the day so it wouldn't get stolen, and that's something I hate to do. Of course, desktops could get stolen too, but at a much lower probability.

[dr_st]

Sorry, but 1600x900 is 1000% better in one discipline: Multitasking. Multitasking with 1400 Pixel horizontally is no fun. You need at last 1600 Pixel to have to Windows side-by-side.

Don't confuse "multitasking" with "putting windows side by side".

[Ibthink]

Yes, right. But you can not that more pixels in the x-dimension would not help with multitasking. Side-by-side viewing is a important part of multitasking in modern systems like Windows 7 / 8, and it is really useful.

You can not do things like this one really good with 1400 pixels:

These ~200 pixels are just missing with WXGA+ or SXGA+.

Admin message: If no one has anything much new to say, this thread is going to locked soon. Just rehasing arguments which have been done to death here already on numerous occasions is going nowhere!

[Cigarguy]

I use my desktop >80% of the time and much prefer it to laptops for any intensive/critical work. A big part of that is the room/environment that my desktop is in. I can have music playing in the background, smoke a cigar and a cold beer. Having two 27" IPS monitor and a 3570K for a little bit of juice helps too.

As for keyboard layout. The other factor for me is I currently have 5 Thinkpads, each with the classic keyboard layout. Each machine serves a different purpose. It's nice to switch from TP to TP without having to worry about keyboard layout. Since the keyboard layout is all the same I don't even think about it. Part of my huge frustration with the T430 was that I was constantly having to adjust, readjust, readjust again to the keyboard layout each and everytime I switch machine. Soooooo frustrating.

[Cola]

I must say, that I find that the T40-series are way better by miles, than the T/W500 series. No keyboard flex, much more sturdy feel to the framing, better screen (I have a got a T43p SXGA+, so this is what I'm basing it on.), higher quality plastic used... The list goes on.

I have owned a T40, T41, T43 and a T43p. I currently have the T40 base and the T43p left. Based on my own considerations, I find the T43p being the best, as it still has got that classic Thinkpad feel to it, but comes with more performance than older models. The ultimate Thinkpad would in my opinion be something near to the T60p. This is due to the classic 4:3 display, the many configuration options, the low rate of failures to it, and the classic high-quality feel to it, that it inherited off the T40-series.

/ My two cents..

[QWERTY Andreas]

Not even close. An old client of mine sent back his brand new W530 once he saw my LED-modded T43p. Not kidding.

A modded T43.. Compare to the standard model

Have you tried to see the FHD display, configured correctly? Its actually very, very nice. I hated mine too, unti it was configured. Now it is among the best notebook display i have seen.

About the resolution: I do really like the option to have two pages beside each other in a word document. And i really like to show a whole page, AND a website on my display, at the same time.

And one thing i forgot to mention: Lenovo have an outstanding service.. At least here in denmark.

HOWEVER: I think some thinkpads, are getting off track, ie. the X1 Carbon. You cant change anything. What's the big deal, when warranty is out? That's not something i would buy.

[TTY]

HP's DreamColor was also available in 1920x1200 for quite some time on 17" models...

17" DreamColor displays are still available on HP EliteBook Mobile Workstations 8770W.

EDIT: OK, now they are 1920*1080.

[dr_st]

Admin message: If no one has anything much new to say, this thread is going to locked soon. Just rehasing arguments which have been done to death here already on numerous occasions is going nowhere!

I was not aware that the forum has a rule or a policy that limits how many times or in how many threads it is OK to discuss certain things. But if that is the case, it will be nice if when locking this thread you kindly post a link to an older topic where it is OK to continue discussing.