Question of choice: T43p vs. T60

[Ereinion]

Hi, Thinkpadders!
My wife asked me to replace her X200s (SU2300/6GB RAM/500GB HDD/12" WXGA and dead battery) with machine with relatively same performance and bigger IPS screen (for Photoshop and web-design, but don't forget simple things like websurfing and wathcing HD movies). Budget is about 300$ in Russia.
I see some variants:
1) Hi-end T43p. I found 2268-F8G machine with UXGA screen, Pm-760 CPU@2GHz, RAM maxed to 2GB, 60GB HDD and FireGL video.
2) Middle/Hi-end T60. It will have SXGA+ IPS display, maximum 3GB RAM, SATA HDD (I have some big HD for it, but storage size is not a problem - we have a big and fast network storage) and Radeon video.
3) It will be harder to find - T60p. But with SXGA+ screen (I haven't seen UXGA T60p in sale on local sites).
And first thing to choice is display/CPU balance. UXGA with 1 core or SXGA+ with 2 cores.
Please guide me to the solution!
P.S. T43p will run XP, T60 - Win7/32

[ajkula66]

One area which you haven't mentioned but is *very* important for overall performance is HDD transfer speeds.

A stock T43p will lag significantly behind T60 in this respect. A SATA-modded one will give the low-to-mid Core Duo models a run for their money.

It's a tough call, but I'd say that you should go with a T60. Do bear in mind that SXGA+ panels seen on those age less gracefully than UXGA ones found on T43p units.

Good luck.

[FrankL]

first of all, I don't know how these options hold up against each other regarding reliability.

I'd go for one of the T60 models, as it supports native Sata SDD (the T43 requires a hardware mod or another bridge chip and sacrificing your ultrabay slim drive bay).

Further more, the T60 support 3 GB of RAM vs. 2GB for the T43 which might be a huge difference when working with Photoshop which eats RAM for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I've read (not tested) that the T60 can use close to 4GB if you run a PAE-enabled OS (e.g. Linux or Windows Server 2008 32-bit datacenter edition). This might be worthwhile for Photoshop.

[ZaZ]

Another way to look at it is you can swap the screen on the T60 with the UXGA LCD if you're inclined, but the PATA hard drive connector that hard drive companies stopped investing in a long time ago, you're stuck with if you get the T43. I'd vote for the T60 and your wife would probably benefit with a dual core doing photoshop.

[Ereinion]

ajkula66, FrankL, ZaZ - thanks for quick answers!
I don't want to make SATA mod - one reason is that after couple years of use machine will go my collection. But if I will buy T43, I think about install PATA SSD (Like Transcend TS64GPSD330).

On T60p I think real maximum RAM will be somethig about 3.3-3.6GB (I had hp tc4400 tablet on i945 chipset and with 2x2GB sticks it could use 3.46GB with Win7/64). So with Win7/32 (it will be hard to use XP on machine that can be used under 7 ) it will be about 750MB more usable RAM for apps...
One more thought for T60p is that it can be a base for frankenpad...

Oh, my brain )) I'll try to find UXGA T60p

[ajkula66]

But if I will buy T43, I think about install PATA SSD (Like Transcend TS64GPSD330).

Don't bother. They are garbage. And PATA SSDs don't play nice with T43's SATA-to-PATA chip...so they get sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooow...

One more thought for T60p is that it can be a base for frankenpad...

Now that's good thinking...

[systemBuilder]

The Wintel Cartel is working to obsolete the T4x series of laptops. Thinkpad T40-T42 won't run Windows 8 without a CPU upgrade to a 533 FSB chip with the NX bit.

The T43 series won't run shader model 3.0 / DirectX 9.0c (which is used by the newer MMORPGs).

I think you'll have an extra year or two of processor and video support if you go with the T60, which I believe (since it's SXGA+) has the X1300 or X1400 GPU, or something similar, which should run shader model 3.0. It won't run the spectacular games of today (like skyrim), but it will probably run the online-only games like EVE Online where mass appeal is important to sustaining the company.

I believe that architecturally the T60 and T43p are nearly the same, except for the change in the power supply voltage and connector, and the sata/pata converter chip that makes a T43 speak PATA.

I don't think that the drive makers are making new PATA drives (the newest one I've seen on ebay was labeled 2011). This means that eventually you will be forced to put a SATA caddy into your T43, or you will be forced to bypass the T43 SATA/PATA bridge chipset - or both.

All in all, the T60 series will be cheaper to sustain and will run current software for longer than the T43 series.

Since your budget is limited, you might also choose the machine with the better display (easy to do if you can get them next to each other - maybe you can borrow one and place it next to the other one for a few minutes?) Check which display is brighter, and which display is more yellowed. If one is significantly brighter, choose the brighter one. If one has a yellowed panel, choose the whiter panel. Darkness and a yellowed color are both signs of a backlight and/or panel that are nearly worn out.

[spac3nerd]

I would go with the T60.
If you value screen quality, you might have issues with the T43 since there may be imprints on the screen caused by the keyboard. I recall those marks as being quite noticeable on my T43p , especially when displaying black or dark colors. I don't know if all T43's had this problem so someone correct me if I'm wrong.
The other problem is the 2010 error on boot if you install a "non-Thinkpad" harddrive, but this can be bypassed by installing the modded BIOS.

You can buy higher capacity SATA drives that cost less per GB and perform better than older PATA ones. The stock hdd's that would have shipped with the T43s are quite slow by today's standards. I would recommend the T60/p.

[Raceboy]

On T60p I think real maximum RAM will be somethig about 3.3-3.6GB

No, maximum RAM is still exactly 3.0 GB, not more because it is a limitation implemented in BIOS level.

[Ereinion]

Thanks, my friends! But I bought a T43p for 200$ with port replicator and new battery.
With my wife we desided to take machine for less money, but when we will complete building of our offroad truck we will buy new Thinkcentre or Thinkstation for design works and a ThinkPad for my needs.

Our new workstation is 2668-F8G - Pm-2.0, 2GB ram, 60GB 7200rpm HDD, 15" UXGA, FireGL, DVD-RW, WiFi-abg, BT. Now restoring original WinXP image form IBM.

[dr_st]

The Wintel Cartel is working to obsolete the T4x series of laptops. Thinkpad T40-T42 won't run Windows 8 without a CPU upgrade to a 533 FSB chip with the NX bit.

Yes, I'm sure someone at "Wintel" is actively planning the obsolescence of this 8-10 year old technology.

[FrankL]

...
No, maximum RAM is still exactly 3.0 GB, not more because it is a limitation implemented in BIOS level.

What about when using PAE (for addressing more memory rather than for only accessing NX)?
supported by:
- Windows XP original and XP SP1
- Windows Server 32-bit Enterprise and Datacenter editions
- Linux kernel
- etc. (see this table on wikipedia)

In this case the system bios need to support addressing more RAM using PAE too afaik (memory remapping to move some address space beyond the physical memory space in order to fully be able to use the 4GB physical ram. here's an Intel paper on the issues involved). E.g. my Intel desktop board (D875PBZ) can't use PAE to address the full 4GB physical RAM

ok, just found this datasheet which clearly states that the 945 chipset variants offer no mechanism for memory remapping whatsoever. This appears to be the definitive answer to me. I found the same limitations mentioned in the datasheet for the Intel 875P that's used on my desktop board.

I'm going with the assumption that before x64 CPUs got popular, only Intel server chipsets supported remapping RAM. The pay-off to implement remapping to free up (only) 256-768 MB of RAM when most consumers didn't ever use more than 3GB on these chipsets obviously wasn't worth it for Intel. For server chipsets, more than 4GB of physical memory was supported by these chpisets and remapping would actually provide a tangible benefit in common usage scenarios. In fact, Microsoft disabling support for PAE for addressing more RAM post XP SP1 (due to many buggy drivers for e.g. videocards) further strengthened this policy by Intel.

[Neil]

Still a no go in this case. The RAM, in this case, is not limited by the CPU, BIOS or OS but the Intel chipset, which cannot be upgraded or changed.

Doesn't really matter, though, Ereinion says they have decided to go with the T43.