T410s or T420s

[rdjack21]

I've been contenplating a W520 or W530 Quad core machine for a work machine. Love the idea of 32GB of ram (can run a bunch of VM's) and a nice 1080p display in a portable workstation. Then this past week I had to do a bunch of traveling with my T410 and that changed my mind on what I need. What did I decide?

1) The T410 is heavy enough and I don't want anything heaver.
2) I would actually like something a little lighter if possible
3) But I don't want to give up the bigger display of my T410 other words no X series machines (for now)

So that has led me to the T410s or the T420s I have the budget to buy either of them but I do have a few concerns:

1) Display size change between the two 1440x900 vs 1600x900 - How much display height am I actually loosing going to the 16:9 display compaired to the 16:10 of my current T410? Will I notice it?

2) Battery life - While I do most of my work where I have access to power their are times when the 9cell battery in my current system has come in handy. Can you hot swap the ultra bay battery? If I had a couple of those I could see just swapping them out if needed.

3) Is the extra money for the i7-2640 worth it over say the i5-2540 when comparing the specs the only differance I can find is the speed 2.8GHz vs 2.6GHz not sure the ~$200 price diffence is worth it.

4) nVidia or Intel graphics? I'm pretty happy with what I currently have on my T410 so my bet is the Intel will be just fine. It should be noted though that most if not all the i7 T420s I've seen listed include nVidia while I have not seen a single i5 one listed with nVidia included. So this just may come down to is i7 + nVidia worth ~$200 upgrade cost?

5) Memory 8GB or 16GB? I'll tell you up front that I would really like the 16GB option primarily to run VM's.

From the price perspective going from T410s(i5 560M) to T420s(i5 2540M) is about a ~$150 upgrade plus another ~$200 to go i7-2640M on the T420s

I'm leaning more toward a T420s primarily because I could really use the 16GB of Ram but I'm worried about the slightly smaller screen. I'm still debating the i7 vs i5 I think I need to go find some bench marks.

Thanks for any input you may have.

[jayton4]

It almost seems like this topic is a setup for me. I think that I have one of the strongest opinions on this subject, as I have both and have used both as my everyday laptop. I would choose the T420s for so many reasons. Here is a rundown to answer your questions.

1. You are losing a little more than half an inch of height by choosing the T420s over the T410s. The screen dimensions on the T410s is 7.5" tall by 12" wide. On the T420s it is 6 7/8" tall by 12 1/4" wide. There are the same number of vertical pixels, so you will not be losing any view of anything as far as height is concerned, just a higher pixel density. As far as whether you will notice it would also need to consider how good your eyes are.

2. Battery is close to being one of the biggest differences you will find. The battery life on the T410s is around 2 hours, sometimes just a hair under 2 hours. The T420s (with Nvidia turned off) gets 3 hours of battery life with the UltraBay battery adding 2 more for a total of 5 hours. Several times I have gotten a little more than 5 hours.

3. On my T410s, I got the i5-520m, on my T420s I got the i7-2640m. This is personal preference, but for the T420s, you can get the i7 for not much more money (except on the used market on eBay.) The i5-520m does just about everything that basic use would need. However, after owning an X220 Tablet with i7-2640m, I got hooked on that i7 power and got that same CPU in my T420s. Some users have to have i7, and some users don't care. I have now become a CPU snob and got to have the best. You may not be like me in that area. If you say you are going to go look for benchmarks, then go i7.

4. The nice thing about the Nvidia NVS graphics is that you can turn it completely off in the BIOS. It is a very big battery drainer. Watching the power usage with the computer sitting idle, my T420s will use around 9W of juice with Nvidia turned off and about 26W with the Nvidia turned on. After work I sometimes like to switch on the Nvidia and play a round of BF3 or race on NFS Hot Pursuit and Dirt 3. It is nice to have a machine that is capable of running it and still weigh less than 4 pounds. I don't know if there is any other machine out there that can claim that.

5. I never had any problems with running out of memory with the 8GB limit on my T410s. However, I never ran more than one VM on it at a time either. With the T420s, I have my own Virtual Network with one running Windows Server 2012 Standard and then a bunch of virtual clients running a combo of Win XP, Win 7, and Linux. I work as an IT Director and can use this to learn and test best practices for my company. It is so nice to be able to test something like a new group policy to see how it will behave before implementing it on my real network at work. Having 16GB of RAM gives you that freedom.

Now I will offer some additional points that you did not ask about.

1. Hard drive options. This is the area where you really get screwed on the T410s. The main bay is a 1.8" microSATA (not mSATA) drive. If you plan on using an SSD, it is the slower SATA II spec. It is very hard to find good replacements for a 1.8" drive, and very expensive when you do find them. The mini PCIe slot does not work as an mSATA slot on the T410s, so that is not an option. For my T410s, I put a regular 2.5" SSD in the UltraBay for my boot drive and leave the original 250GB 1.8" drive in the main bay for storage. That prevents using the UltraBay battery for much needed extended runtime.

The T420s does not have these limitations. The main bay and UltraBay on T420s are SATA III spec, which makes a HUGE difference in SSD performance if you like benchmarking. The main bay only accepts slimmer drives at 7mm height, but there are tons of great choices. You can also fit in a regular 9.5mm SSD if you don't use the rails, but it could get stuck in there. While trying the fit of one of my thicker Corsair drives, I was able to slide the drive back out using two small flat head screwdrivers.

2. Screen issues. The T410s has major screen issues. A great deal of users (including me) suffer from an issue called MIGR-76367. If you search for that, you will find stories from people that have had as many as 12 out of 15 T410s laptops that suffered from this problem. Replacement screens for the T410s are priced at an outrageous $300.

With the T420s, the only issues I hear about deal with the cooling fan, a cheap and moderately simple repair. Also, if the screen ever does mess up or get busted on the T420s, the replacements are sold for around $60.

3. Ports. The T410s has eSATA and T420s does not. The T420s has USB 3.0 and the T410s does not. You can add eSATA to a T420s with an ExpressCard, but adding a USB 3.0 ExpressCard to a T410s does not go as well since the ExpressCard slots do not support the power that some USB 3.0 devices require.


Consider checking the Lenovo Outlet when finding your perfect computer. I purchased my T420s with i7, Nvidia, 320GB HDD for $850 with 1 yr warranty. Since then I saw another model pop up on there that had all the same stuff except a 160GB SSD for $750. The inventory changes all the time and some deals are on there for a very short period of time. There current deal is for 256GB SSD and 3 Year warranty for $940. I would have gladly picked that one up if it were available at the time I bought just for that warranty. If you want i7-2640m and Nvidia graphics, the prices for buying new on the Lenovo Outlet will blow away anything that is out there selling used or new on ebay with the similar specs.

[jayton4]

One thing I missed: Yes, the UltraBay battery is hot swappable. You can click the "safely remove..." icon in the system tray to eject the "Microsoft ACPI compliant control method battery" just as if it were a flash drive.

I bought a Lenovo external battery charger and plan to get another UltraBay and standard battery so that I can just keep swapping them out as needed. This will mean that my AC Adapter plug and the power jack on my laptop will be less likely to get worn out from all the insertions and removals over the years.

Charging through the laptop with the UltraBay battery behaves a little differently. Laptops with just one battery have just one step, charge the battery with a little trickle charge at the end. When the UltraBay battery is present, charging through the laptop is a 3 step process.
First: The main battery is charged to 80%
Second: The UltraBay battery is charged to 100% with a slow trickle charge at the end
Third: The Main battery is charged the remaining 20% with a slow trickle charge at the end.

With two slow trickle charges, it seems to take forever to charge both batteries through the laptop. I'm looking forward to doing all my charging externally.

[rdjack21]

Thanks for the detailed reply I really do appreciate it. I think you have sold me on the T420s. Now the question is which one. I like you prefer to get the most I can when I buy which means I woud prefer the i7 but that being said what I've seen on the bench marks for the two (i5-2540M vs i7-2640M) there is only about a 10% differance in the two but yet a 20-25% differance in price on the used market (ebay). I have not seen a i7 on the outlet in a while but what is frustrating is that I see the T430s i7 for cheaper than the T420s i5-2520M wonder if they are having a issue moving the T430s?

I think for the time being I will keep an eye on the outlet and see what turns up. Maybe used as well if the price is right and it has a warrenty.

[jayton4]

If buying used, definitely go i5, as the ebay sellers are out to make it big if they are selling one with an i7. I watched the outlet every single day for a month before I found mine. There have been a lot more available come and go here lately. The one I was talking about this morning with the 3yr warranty is gone now. It said there were 3 left, you never know how quick they will go.

[siLc]

The T420s (with Nvidia turned off) gets 3 hours of battery life with the UltraBay battery adding 2 more for a total of 5 hours. Several times I have gotten a little more than 5 hours.

Really? One would presume that the 39Wh battery would provide at least 4 hours of life, no? Bought my T420s without a battery so currently I have no real idea of how long should it last. If I'd like it to last a 6-hour flight, I'd definetly be in the market for a Ultrabay battery?

Is that 9W drain at minimum screen brightness? What about watching an HD movie?

[rdjack21]

If buying used, definitely go i5, as the ebay sellers are out to make it big if they are selling one with an i7. I watched the outlet every single day for a month before I found mine. There have been a lot more available come and go here lately. The one I was talking about this morning with the 3yr warranty is gone now. It said there were 3 left, you never know how quick they will go.

Yea the outlet inventory is realy volitile! Now the question is will I get in a hurry and just get a T430s i7 or should I jump on a used T420s in the 800 range with warranty still left on it. I would save ~200 going the used T420s. Hmm What to do...

Oh for referance I found this CPU comparison site http://www.cpubenchmark.net/laptop.html
Where the performance range is:

i5-2540M - 3630 (T420s i5 option) used ~600 New ~850
i7-2640M - 4030 (T420s i7 option) used ~800 (ebay) New ~1k
i7-3520M - 4474 (T430s i7 option) New ~1k

that T430s i7 is tempting but can I deal with that darn new keyboard? And the lack of tp_smapi support for linux which is what will go on ths machine. Hmm....

[ajkula66]

Just bear in mind that *any* laptop bought from the Outlet will come with a one-year non-extendable warranty...

[jayton4]

Just bear in mind that *any* laptop bought from the Outlet will come with a one-year non-extendable warranty...

Actually your statement should read *most* laptops rather than any. There are some specials that come with 3 Yr warranty. There aren't any examples on there right now, but I see them pop up from time to time. They are easier to spot because they will have a very long description in the title.

Also, it is indeed extendable. On the Outlet homepage, check out the link that says "Protect your machine."

When I go to the extend warranty section of support.lenovo.com and enter my serial number for my outlet T420s, the only option I can buy there is the 3yr accidental for $189.

[jayton4]

Really? One would presume that the 39Wh battery would provide at least 4 hours of life, no? Bought my T420s without a battery so currently I have no real idea of how long should it last. If I'd like it to last a 6-hour flight, I'd definetly be in the market for a Ultrabay battery?

Is that 9W drain at minimum screen brightness? What about watching an HD movie?

If I were to tweak out the power settings for maximum power savings, I think it could be stretched out for closer to 4 hours. I am just going off the Balanced profile with a couple of changes here and there.

Minimum screen brightness and reading through text on a webpage similar to the forums here. I am sure it would be higher on an HD movie.

[ajkula66]

[
Also, it is indeed extendable. On the Outlet homepage, check out the link that says "Protect your machine."

My mistake - I wasn't aware that they brought the option of extending/upgrading the warranty on Outlet purchases back - thanks for pointing that out.

[wolfman]

Thanks for the detailed reply I really do appreciate it. I think you have sold me on the T420s. Now the question is which one. I like you prefer to get the most I can when I buy which means I woud prefer the i7 but that being said what I've seen on the bench marks for the two (i5-2540M vs i7-2640M) there is only about a 10% differance in the two but yet a 20-25% differance in price on the used market (ebay).

You may find post useful to look at (saving me time by not retyping my post here):
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 18#p696218

It gives an idea of how I use my T420 for VM's and a specific use case that is pretty heavy in terms of requirements and it works great. If you can get the i7 for about the same price or within $50, OK, but otherwise I'd get a core i5 2520M or 2540M and be happy with it. Good luck.

[rdjack21]

Well I couldn't resist I ended up just bitting the bullet and getting a W530 Really a heavy unit but I really do need the power it brings to the table. But what really sold me was the cost. I got a W530 for $1200 (yes it's used but lightly only 6 month old) and it is pretty much loaded 128G mSata drive, 320G primary hard drive, 1080p, K2000M, i7-3720QM processor, 16G ram. I already have a 256G SSD to replace the hard drive with and 32G of Ram on the way to upgrade that. Oh and the original buyer purchased a 2yr warrenty for it as well which still has 1.5 years left on it.

A few months down the road when I will need a travel laptop again I may revisit this and try to souce a T420s or T430s well see. I think I can easly justify haveing 2 laptops one for travel and one heavy hitter. For now my current T410 will be the travel machine and the X61 for the kids but I may let the kids have the T410 and get myself something lighter.

[jayton4]

My mistake - I wasn't aware that they brought the option of extending/upgrading the warranty on Outlet purchases back - thanks for pointing that out.

No problem bud. You are one of the most knowledgeable posters here. Sometimes you correct me, sometimes I correct you.

[jayton4]

Well I couldn't resist I ended up just bitting the bullet and getting a W530 Really a heavy unit but I really do need the power it brings to the table. But what really sold me was the cost. I got a W530 for $1200 (yes it's used but lightly only 6 month old) and it is pretty much loaded 128G mSata drive, 320G primary hard drive, 1080p, K2000M, i7-3720QM processor, 16G ram. I already have a 256G SSD to replace the hard drive with and 32G of Ram on the way to upgrade that. Oh and the original buyer purchased a 2yr warrenty for it as well which still has 1.5 years left on it.

Sounds like a hell of a beast. Enjoy that quad core monster.