The ThinkPad is Dead, Long Live..... ?

[Puppy]

Librem is not designing or building anything, they are just slapping their name on an off-the-shelf laptop and calling it "added value".

Because of the "free" BIOS

[RasmusP]

Topstar makes mac clones (also other things). It's the look that they clone, not the guts.
Librem is selling a laptop for $2k+ which is made by Topstar
Topstar sells the exact same laptop for under $600
Librem is not designing or building anything, they are just slapping their name on an off-the-shelf laptop and calling it "added value".

Interesting. Do you have a link? I don't know topstar. Is this the you have in mind?

http://www.topstardigital.cn:8088/Produ ... aspx?id=34

[RasmusP]

^^^^^^^
Which kills absolutely any interest that its features would've possibly brought to my attention otherwise.

It's a big minus, I agree.

[600X]

Don't worry something great is coming, something ThinkPadders have been wanting for years.

I'll believe it when I see it. Not in the picture, but on the actual Lenovo website, with an option to order it...or not.

Well, you did say the same regarding the trackpoint buttons. And guess what returned to this years line-up.

[ajkula66]

Well, you did say the same regarding the trackpoint buttons. And guess what returned to this years line-up.

I still believe that the TrackPoint is on the death row and that its execution has merely been postponed.

[lead_org]

Well, you did say the same regarding the trackpoint buttons. And guess what returned to this years line-up.

I still believe that the TrackPoint is on the death row and that its execution has merely been postponed.

George, don't be a pessimist. I have asked several Lenovo VP at CES and specifically David Hill, and they have all promised that Trackpoint and its buttons are here to stay.

[ajkula66]

George, don't be a pessimist. I have asked several Lenovo VP at CES and specifically David Hill, and they have all promised that Trackpoint and its buttons are here to stay.

Sorry old friend but I happen to distrust the entire lot of them...

Not that it matters, really. I don't see myself buying a new ThinkPad ever again.

[bit_twiddler]

I have asked several Lenovo VP at CES and specifically David Hill, and they have all promised that Trackpoint and its buttons are here to stay.

Please do me a favor and ask them when 16:10 or 4:3 is coming back.
If they want to compete with Apple in North America, and possibly other
markets, one of the things that they're going to have to realize is
that business people and engineers use their computers to get real
work done, and not just to watch movies.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 0822979176

[bit_twiddler]

Here's an article on a web site which does not require one to log in.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101190135#.

[lead_org]

I have asked several Lenovo VP at CES and specifically David Hill, and they have all promised that Trackpoint and its buttons are here to stay.

Please do me a favor and ask them when 16:10 or 4:3 is coming back.
If they want to compete with Apple in North America, and possibly other
markets, one of the things that they're going to have to realize is
that business people and engineers use their computers to get real
work done, and not just to watch movies.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 0822979176

For the best hint, watch the ThinkPad Team hangout video (with David, Kevin, Dilip, et al) on YouTube. Listen to what David says in the last part of the video, when Jeremiah was asking him a question about unlimited R&D funding.

[RealBlackStuff]

(Question is posed at ~37 minutes).
That's not a hint, that's only a what-if answer, absolutely useless.

[pianowizard]

For the best hint, watch the ThinkPad Team hangout video (with David, Kevin, Dilip, et al) on YouTube. Listen to what David says in the last part of the video, when Jeremiah was asking him a question about unlimited R&D funding.

I didn't watch this video, but predict that Lenovo would charge a lot for 16:10, 3:2 and/or 4:3 options. Most of the 16:9 haters would continue to buy 16:9 laptops once they realize that they would have to pay hundreds of bucks extra just to get a non-16:9 screen. 1920x1200 is better than 1920x1080 but not THAT much better to justify shelling out so much more money.

Minimizing bezel size (while sticking with 16:9) is an easier way for laptop designers to make people happy, for example: http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/13/80308 ... ook-review

[laowai]

For the best hint, watch the ThinkPad Team hangout video (with David, Kevin, Dilip, et al) on YouTube. Listen to what David says in the last part of the video, when Jeremiah was asking him a question about unlimited R&D funding.

I didn't watch this video, but predict that Lenovo would charge a lot for 16:10, 3:2 and/or 4:3 options. Most of the 16:9 haters would continue to buy 16:9 laptops once they realize that they would have to pay hundreds of bucks extra just to get a non-16:9 screen. 1920x1200 is better than 1920x1080 but not THAT much better to justify shelling out so much more money.

They already charge hundreds of bucks extra to get a 1920x1080 screen as it is. It's really not that big of a deal to be honest. Drop an extra $500 for a 4:3 screen greater or equal to 1400x1050, a 7-row keyboard with a normal layout and a physical buttons again? Please take my money.

[lead_org]

They already charge hundreds of bucks extra to get a 1920x1080 screen as it is. It's really not that big of a deal to be honest. Drop an extra $500 for a 4:3 screen greater or equal to 1400x1050, a 7-row keyboard with a normal layout and a physical buttons again? Please take my money.

Don't worry you will get your chance to spend your money for the dream machine.

[pianowizard]

They already charge hundreds of bucks extra to get a 1920x1080 screen as it is. It's really not that big of a deal to be honest. Drop an extra $500 for a 4:3 screen greater or equal to 1400x1050, a 7-row keyboard with a normal layout and a physical buttons again?

If Lenovo does bring back conventional keyboards and physical mouse buttons, it would probably apply these changes to most Thinkpad models including 16:9 ones. You would be paying $500 extra just to downgrade a 1920x1080 screen to 1400x1050, and nothing more.

[ajkula66]

If Lenovo does bring back conventional keyboards and physical mouse buttons, it would probably apply these changes to most Thinkpad models including 16:9 ones.

I agree. Platform change from 16:9 to anything else is unlikely to happen, though, be it Lenovo or any other major manufacturer.

You would be paying $500 extra just to downgrade a 1920x1080 screen to 1400x1050, and nothing more.

To you it's a downgrade, to someone else it's not since they would be getting exactly what they want and that can be priceless.

[pianowizard]

To you it's a downgrade

I was referring to the reduction in pixel count along both dimensions:
1920 --> 1400 (27% reduction)
1080 --> 1050 (2.8% reduction)

If the resolution change was going from 1920x1080 to 1600x1200, then we could argue whether that's an upgrade or downgrade. (It's still a downgrade in terms of total pixel count though.)

[ajkula66]

If the resolution change was going from 1920x1080 to 1600x1200, then we could argue whether that's an upgrade or downgrade.

Well, my point was that there are people out there who really don't care whether something is an upgrade/downgrade in terms that you're presenting, such as total pixel count etc. They *want* 1400x1050 or 1440x900 or whatever. It works for them. What you and I may think is completely irrelevant in that scenario.

(It's still a downgrade in terms of total pixel count though.)

While it may very well be so, that's a downgrade that I would take any day of the week and any hour of the day.

[laowai]

To you it's a downgrade

I was referring to the reduction in pixel count along both dimensions:
1920 --> 1400 (27% reduction)
1080 --> 1050 (2.8% reduction)

If the resolution change was going from 1920x1080 to 1600x1200, then we could argue whether that's an upgrade or downgrade. (It's still a downgrade in terms of total pixel count though.)

Fine then, 16:10 works for me as well, gimmie a WSXGA+ or WUXGA screen, call it whatever gimmicky marketing name you want. As long as it's matte and IPS I'm happy. Fairly simple from an engineering point too... just turn that black piece of plastic below the screen back into screen.

[bit_twiddler]

But, Apple never dropped 16:10, and they are entering the corporate market.

For Apple, Lenovo, and other computer manufacturers,
it's a question of letting the supply chain tell you what you can have,
or telling the supply chain what you need.

I don't want to go with Apple, but if they can force Lenovo to come
out with decent screens, I'm all for them.

[pianowizard]

Fine then, 16:10 works for me as well, gimmie a WSXGA+ or WUXGA screen, call it whatever gimmicky marketing name you want. As long as it's matte and IPS I'm happy. Fairly simple from an engineering point too... just turn that black piece of plastic below the screen back into screen.

Wise choice... 16:10 should cost much less than 4:3 because, as you said, it shouldn't require a drastic redesign of the rest of the laptop.

For Apple, Lenovo, and other computer manufacturers,
it's a question of letting the supply chain tell you what you can have,
or telling the supply chain what you need.

Yes, but Apple and Microsoft are paying a premium to obtain screens with unconventional aspect ratios. That's one of the reasons why Apple's 16:10 laptops and 4:3 iPads and Microsoft's 3:2 Surface Pro 3 are pricier than other brands' comparable products.

I guess if Lenovo wants to reduce costs, an option is to make Thinkpads that use the exact same non-16:9 panels that Apple and Microsoft are already ordering from Samsung etc. These panels would still cost more than 16:9 ones, but probably a little less than if Lenovo starts from scratch.

In the old days when even the cheapest laptops retailed at well over $1k, custom-made LCD panels were quite common because the additional costs for these panels represented a relatively small fraction of the laptop's total cost. To name just a few examples: QXGA (IBM's R50p and several of NEC's Japan-only laptops), 5:4 (the 770X and 770Z Thinkpads, Dell's Inspiron 7500), 14.1" 1600x1200 (Dell's Latitude C610 and Inspiron 4100), etc. But nowadays, most laptop are priced between $200 and $800 (not list prices, but actual sold prices), and the average laptop's profit margin is only $5 to $20. Everyone is trying their best to minimize cost.

[laowai]

They already charge hundreds of bucks extra to get a 1920x1080 screen as it is. It's really not that big of a deal to be honest. Drop an extra $500 for a 4:3 screen greater or equal to 1400x1050, a 7-row keyboard with a normal layout and a physical buttons again? Please take my money.

Don't worry you will get your chance to spend your money for the dream machine.

It's gonna be some machine finally with a real keyboard, real screen, great specs, everything everyone has been demanding for years.... and made out of solid gold just to ruin it for everyone ;_;

[Saucey]

Given that there's a consumer Lenovo Yoga Pro (which sports a 16:10, 3200 x 1800 pixel screen) as well as a few other 16:10 panels, there is some hope.
Although there is yet to be a standard for 3K to 8K screens, QHD+ seems to be confused weither it is 16:10 or 16:9.

[pianowizard]

Given that there's a consumer Lenovo Yoga Pro (which sports a 16:10, 3200 x 1800 pixel screen)

That's a 16:9 ratio. It's basically 4 times 1600x900.

[jdrou]

QHD+ seems to be confused weither it is 16:10 or 16:9.

As pianowizard says, this is of course 16:9. HD+ is 1600x900 so QHD+ is 3200x1800.
Pretty sure any resolution with "HD" in the name is 16:9. Also 3k and 4k.

[Ibthink]

Today even 1920x1200 WUXGA screens, like in the ThinkPad 10, are advertised as "Full HD" - surely because it is better marketable and memorable than WUXGA.

16:10 counterpart for 3200x1800 (becomes 1600x900 at 200 % scaling) is 2880x1800 (becomes 1440x900 at 200 % scaling).

[DaKKS]

I've been down the thinkpad road and honesly, for me at least, its no longer worth it. They're tough, but not tough enough for me. I'm much rather break a 300 dollar Acer/Toshiba/HP, than a 1200 dollar Thinkpad. Which is why i just bought an Aspire ES1 instead of the T140e i was planning.

I still like them, and my T4X frankenpad is still my main word processor (the keyboard is just pure joy), but i can live with lower quality for a beater rig. Its gonna break anyway, rather not break the bank too.

[pianowizard]

i just bought an Aspire ES1 instead of the T140e i was planning.

Why not buy a used Thinkpad or equivalent business-class laptop that's about the same price as this low-end Acer? BTW, did you get the 11.6" or 15.6" model? Both have only 1366x768 resolution, so I hope it's the former!

Despite my above question, I don't think it's that crazy for us (i.e. people who usually prefer premium business-class laptops) to buy ultra cheap consumer craptops. As I have mentioned many times in recent weeks, I bought a $200 HP Pavilion x2 2-in-1 craptop back in early December and like it a lot. I bought this HP to replace an 8-inch, pocketable Sony P Series netbook, but in a way it has sort of replaced all my other current laptops as well, because it's now my most frequently used laptop.

[emeraldgirl08]

^^^ I agree and think it is not too crazy to own an on-the-side cheapie laptop. In my case my Acer Chromebook is an effective supplement to my routine as a university student. I bought mine for $129 so it was not terribly costly in respect to the budget I had at the time. I had previously done some research on the c720 and found that I could install linux alongside ChromeOS which further influenced my decision to purchase it. So far it has been working out nicely. The speakers are decent (listening to music right now) and the battery life trumps the one in my X220t. Currently I am considering a Thinkpad Yoga or an X230 tablet at some point in the near future. For now I am just waiting for the prices of the TP Yoga or the X230t to lower and also for this semester to end before making a decision.

[DaKKS]

Why not buy a used Thinkpad or equivalent business-class laptop that's about the same price as this low-end Acer? BTW, did you get the 11.6" or 15.6" model? Both have only 1366x768 resolution, so I hope it's the former!

Cause any thinkpad or business class notebook i could've bought for similar prices would be outclassed in both performance and battery life. I just ran this thing for 6 hours. Try that with a few years old machine. Besides, its fanless. I love fanless. Fanless is great. Fanless is joy. Fanless is piece of mind.

And yes, its the 11.6 inch model.

Despite my above question, I don't think it's that crazy for us (i.e. people who usually prefer premium business-class laptops) to buy ultra cheap consumer craptops. As I have mentioned many times in recent weeks, I bought a $200 HP Pavilion x2 2-in-1 craptop back in early December and like it a lot. I bought this HP to replace an 8-inch, pocketable Sony P Series netbook, but in a way it has sort of replaced all my other current laptops as well, because it's now my most frequently used laptop.

While the CPU in this thing is limiting. This Acer has completely replaced my main laptop. Admittedly I've upgraded it beyond reason, but its still just an atom powered netbook. Honestly, I'm surprised how well it runs. My only complaint is the [censored] touchpad. Though that will most likely be remedied if the higher spec models have nicer touchpads. There are a whole slew of 11.6 inch acers with the same basic design.