The ThinkPad is Dead, Long Live..... ?

[Adda]

Is Dell following the Lenovo path ? Dell Precision M3800 "Workstation" http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Del ... 075.0.html

Lol now Dell is doing it too, how dumb is that?

Do you wonder why PC sales are going down? maybe it's because Win8 isn't what it's cracked up to be, and that every major computer manufacturer is releasing the same POS computers as the next.
Maybe people think their old computers are better, and Win8 isn't worth the money.

[Ibthink]

Like it or not, all OEMs are going that direction, HP/Dell (and also Fujitsu) all more or less are going the same route as Lenovo:

Dell
- "Precision" M3800, which is just a rebadged XPS 15 with Quadro GPU
- New Latitudes look more and more like the XPS line designwise, less systems with display latches, the 12" latitude models no longer have a TrackPoint, Touch displays on the Latitude models are Glossy, less systems with M-CPUs
- Dell Vostros are now integrated into the Latitude brand as Latitude 3xxx, Vostro is now only used for very low end systems. This is similar to the strategy of Lenovo with the ThinkPad Edge/SL, which basically were the Lenovo 3000 models redesigned to fit into the ThinkPad lineup

HP
- Like T440p/T540p/W540, ZBooks no longer come with a Ultrabay
- ZBooks have no more latches, look like rounded Multimedia-notebooks from 2005
- No M-CPUs in any system smaller than 15" for Elitebooks and ZBooks
- Elitebook Folio 1040 comes with no TrackPoint, instead has a so called "ForcePad" from Synaptics
- Elitebooks are now all Ultrabooks (no exceptions), are more rounded, no more latches, no ThinkLight (no idea how HP called them on their older models), just Backlight like the new ThinkPads, Plastic lids instead of Magnesium-Aluminum
- Elitebook 820 G1 no longer has a ODD, which was unique to the 12" Elitebooks before
- Elitebook Revolve with no TrackPoint and as an Ultrabook replaces the former Elitebook 27xxp line as their Convertible line

This is just the direction the industry is going, no matter if it is Lenovo, HP or Dell. For myself no problem, but for others obviously it is.

[lophiomys]

Lenovo!

This is YOUR opportunity to build a real Classic Thinkpad!


This will make the difference to your competitors and give you a better image as a side effect.

[Puppy]

Do we lost (workstation) notebooks altogether ? Samsung Rumored To Cease Conventional Notebook Launches In 2015

[Medessec]

This will make the difference to your competitors and give you a better image as a side effect.

It can look that way but they hardly see it that way.

Do we lost (workstation) notebooks altogether ?

Feels like we have already. It can be said that True workstation notebook computers have died along with the 4:3 or 16:10 aspect ratio, the loss of specialized production for higher-end laptops(the "performance" machines are just rebadged entry-level laptops with beefier cooling and fancier screens), the introduction of the $300 laptop, or even the introduction of iOS and the Tablet race.

In my recent experience, all my friends as well as my relatives, and other young acquaintances from my parent's friend's families, etc... they all bought laptops(particularly those Dell 15s, HP DV7s, Acer Aspire, cheap ASUS) and all I've heard from each of them that has such a laptop, is that they've encountered either one or numerous hardware-related failures. Ranging from the hinges in the DV7(which are just metal plates "melded" to the bottom bezel plastic) eventually coming undone and ruining the insides of the laptop around the hinge, to screens breaking because of books jabbing a closed laptop inside their backpacks, to their computers fans failing or not spinning fast enough... provoking extremely slow operation or just BSODing all the time.

Several of my friends have come to their senses and are buying Thinkpads through me. Two already have W500s, and another W500 is on the list, with a 4th friend who wants an X201 Tablet. But the main thing I want to hammer down is that- yes, they can continue to build laptops that only last a few years, and are made extremely cheap. But it might come back and eventually bite them in the butt... because people will eventually consider their options. Two years ago, when I told my friends about Thinkpads and that they should buy one, they just paid no mind, scoffing at my "odd interest" and just carrying on with their lives. Now, after the results have spoke for themselves, I didn't even have to sit down and convince those friends who bought W500s from me. They just figured it'd be worth a shot, because anything's better than a crappy HP that keeps failing when it's needed.

I think the problem is... brands want people constantly coming back for their latest product, premium or cheap. And because the companies have made laptops cheap enough, there's no conscience in any other person's mind about a "secondhand laptop", people think it's just given that if they need a laptop, they go out and buy one new. It's just a horribly skewed reality that evolved from a marketing strategy. "Hey, let's try making a computer that ANYONE can afford!" Remember the first few HP Pavilions in the late 90s that were $799? Which was considered a superior bargain to the tall $3000 Dell Dimension productivity PCs?

[emeraldgirl08]

I feel like part of the bigger picture is what you mentioned in your post Medessec. It is the enculturation that if something breaks here is a shiny and 'better' 'something' that will take the place of your broken 'something' if that makes any sense. Some people do not like to think for themselves is a huge factor as well. When you get a chance watch an 80's film called 'They Live' or even the classic 'Day of the Dead.' I feel they both contain social commentary and are quite brilliant IMSO (in my subjective opinion) in their execution. Changing gears slightly. The older ThinkPad was nice as it was quite modular for something that is often just jam-packed into plastic housing. My brother took his older Toshiba apart once and asked me to give him a hand. He simply wanted to replace the thermal compound with some of the AS5 I had used on a T30 (my first ThinkPad). It took a complete disassembly. It was a night mare! He asked how my laptop was in respect to changing thermal compound. I told him it was not too bad compared to the Toshiba we just performed complicated neurosurgery on! These days it seems manufacturers are making an attempt to discourage owners from having total control of their devices and rely on that 'new, shiny, and better' mode of thinking. The result throw it away and buy new.

EDIT:

for some reason entering in night mare as one-word causes TPF to insert 'Overused word' in its place. Strange considering that night mare is spelled as one-word AFAIK

[pianowizard]

This is just the direction the industry is going, no matter if it is Lenovo, HP or Dell. For myself no problem, but for others obviously it is.

I do like some of this new direction. I think both Thinkpads and Dell's business-class models have gotten more attractive than they were 2 to 4 years ago when both brands looked awful, and I welcome the weight reductions. I also think touchscreen is a good idea, and do not mind the non-replaceable batteries (which help reduce weight).

On the other hand, I do not like the new keyboards, the insanely high screen resolutions, button-less touchpads, or laptops becoming impossible to disassemble. Among these issues, the fourth one is the most forgivable, because it's the main way to reduce weight. "Retina" screen resolution is helpful for viewing or editing photos, but for most other applications, I would rather have 1600x900 for 12.1", 1920x1080 for 13.3" (like my Sony Pro 13) and 14.0", and 2048x1152 for 15.6". That said, as long as 13.3" and 14.0" 1920x1080 continue to be available, I am happy -- these are among the best laptop resolutions of all time. I prefer having buttons on a touchpad, but can live without them. On the other hand, I will absolutely not forgive laptop designers for constantly messing with the keyboards. I don't mind island keys, but please don't shuffle keys around, or make some of the heavily used keys (e.g. the ENTER key) ridiculously small, or do away with the gaps in the function key row, or replace function keys with a strip of LEDs, or reduce the number of keys, or make the keys too shallow. These stupid keyboards may make the laptop 1.2 mm thinner and 0.23 lbs lighter, but I don't care.

All things considered, I think Sony's Pro 13 is currently the best laptop. 2.34 lbs, 13.3" 1920x1080 IPS touchscreen, okay keyboard, fairly good construction (the bottom chassis is a bit flimsy but the lid is very strong), good performance for such a mobile unit, and affordable price tag. It's an improvement over the already-good Z series in every single way, including a significantly lower price. It has been ages since the last time I saw a Thinkpad or Dell Business laptop that was "an improvement over the previous generation in every single way". I previously complained that the Pro 13's lid couldn't be opened more than 100 degrees, but later realized that it could be pushed back much more than I had initially thought, up to around 130 degrees.

Thus, this may be my answer to the question the OP posed: "The Thinkpad is dead, long live Sony Vaios!"

[Ibthink]

I do like some of this new direction. I think both Thinkpads and Dell's business-class models have gotten more attractive than they were 2 to 4 years ago when both brands looked awful, and I welcome the weight reductions.

I agree on this. Just compare the T440(s) with a T420(s) designwise: The new designs are now much more fitting to the 16:9 format.

As with everthing, every change has good aspects and bad aspects.

About the Sony Vaio Pro: I tested it once in a local electronics reseller store, but I can´t agree it is the best laptop, because of the cons you listed: The chassis is way to flexible (it just does not feel like a premium device made to last) and the keyboard is mediocre at best, which is just not enough for me. Also, I just can´t stand having a device without a TrackPoint, I just feel lost when I am using a Laptop without something between the G-B-H keys. It may be the lightest device on the western market, but what good is a light, portable device that just doesn´t feel right?

IMHO the best devices on the market now are ThinkPad T440s and Dell E7440 (depending on what you like more). This new class of 14" business Ultrabooks seems to me most balanced: Good to very good keyboards, TrackPoints, matte 14" FHD IPS screens, Dockingports, removeable batteries (hot-swappable on the T440s), almost as light as past 12" business subnotebooks, a sufficient arrangment of ports, durable and still easy-to-disassemble chassis.

And as a side note, it seems like the PC and the notebook market in general are more rough than in past years: In the past days there were rumors that Samsung may leave the Notebook PC market in 2015 (http://www.webpronews.com/samsung-revis ... es-2014-01) and now that Sony may sell its PC unit to (ironically) Lenovo (http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/02/0 ... 3420140201 , which Sony of course denies http://variety.com/2014/biz/news/sony-s ... 201082552/), because Sony is makeing loss with its Vaio business

[Puppy]

"The Thinkpad is dead, long live Sony Vaios!"

How long ?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/ ... 4Q20140204
Shares in Lenovo Group Ltd slumped more than 16 percent on Tuesday after a weekend media report said the Chinese personal computer maker was in talks with Sony Corp about a possible joint venture to buy Sony's loss-making Vaio PC

[Ibthink]

Well, Sony just announced that they will sell their PC business, not to Lenovo, but to an investor group: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26062084

They will leave the international PC market and just concentrate on Japan. They will sell no more Vaio Notebooks in the future, the sale will be stopped in spring. Only 300 employees will stay.

[Medessec]

Ya know, I'd really love to tell the future and see where the computer industry is heading.

I know it's progressing, but I find it really hard to believe that there will be any chance to find a computer we can truly appreciate, if ever again. It's all looking really bleak.

I know some computers come close, but that's what I hate. I have to compromise. I have to sacrifice something. With Thinkpads, I didn't have to. I got everything I'd ever wanted... UltraBay, Trackpoint, awesome screen selection, ThinkLight, awesome keyboard, the best aesthetic/design philosophy, docking capabilities(The 2503 is just... wow.), build quality, ease of use and every aspect of the design and function is purely logical and loaded with attention to detail. On top of that, supreme engineering with state of the art tech for it's time.

With Sony hitting the wall with it's PC division too... I dunno. Who does that leave? Dell, HP? Naw. In my mind... Clevo, but even some of their more mid-market machines have horrid quality and sub-par options and equipment.

[Summilux]

Well, Sony just announced that they will sell their PC business, not to Lenovo, but to an investor group: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26062084

They will leave the international PC market and just concentrate on Japan. They will sell no more Vaio Notebooks in the future, the sale will be stopped in spring. Only 300 employees will stay.

The moves were announced as Sony forecast a net loss of 110bn yen ($1.08bn; £665m) for the financial year to 31 March, revising its earlier projection of a 30bn yen profit.

Earnings forecasts are that much of a gamble.

[pianowizard]

I know it's progressing, but I find it really hard to believe that there will be any chance to find a computer we can truly appreciate, if ever again. It's all looking really bleak.

On the bright side, Windows 8 will be supported until Jan 2023. To me, that means my two current favorite laptops (the Toughbook CF-Y7 and Sony Pro 13) would remain useful for at least 9 more years, if I decide to keep them for that long and if I take good care of them. I've never held on to the same computer for that long, because I was always able to find something nicer to upgrade to. But if all future laptops are going to be unworthy replacements, then I may have to keep using these two for many more years.

[Medessec]

Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see just how far ahead the computing world shoots past our old goats... I have a few computers here I'll be keeping as long as I can. Maybe because web content is being heavily influenced by embedded and mobile devices, full laptops and desktop computers will have an easy time keeping up with web content... software will very likely maintain compatibility with Windows 7 and 8 for a long time, especially if a large amount of people are still using it.

[Cigarguy]

Yes, most fortunate that hardware outpaces software. This was not always the case. It's nice that even my relatively ancient T60 is still very much functional for my needs today and for at least a few more years.

[sir_synthsalot]

For old systems I find that modern web sites are getting more and more bloated and more difficult to run. Windows has gotten better IMO, on my x60s it seemed like Windows 7 and 8 were faster than XP SP3.

[ThinkPad560X]

Im still using my ThinkPad Z60m / ThinkPad X41 and next to my ThinkCentre M51.

[ThinkPad560X]

I just visited lenovo.com to see what new ThinkPads their are and was either wanting to get a new desktop tower or a ThinkPad T series model but dont care much for these future ThinkPads, I may just max out my T60. But I saw this: http://liliputing.com/wp-content/upload ... _angle.jpg. A ThinkPad without a TRACKPOINT. "ThinkPad 11e" I couldnt stand not having a trackpoint And its very weird/sad seeing a ThinkPad without its iconic Red trackpoint. I just saw this since all my ThinkPads are aging behind in Windows and going to need a 64-bit ThinkPad, But I dont care for the every brand laptop island keys, witch lenovo went to and a touchpad. And wasnt the "e" without a touchpad? ThinkPad R50e / R60e. I'd like a modern IBM ThinkPad T43p please with 16GB max memory, Intel Core i7 processor and a 14" stardard screen.

Also my IBM desktop even uses a trackpoint. (http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... ard_04.jpg)

[beskus]

I'd like a modern IBM ThinkPad T43p please with 16GB max memory, Intel Core i7 processor and a 14" stardard screen.

I'm sorry for bumping into this old thread but I must say that here may be hope. In China there's a project to rebuild the 15" T43 motherboard with Intel i7 socket and alot more ram. I am unfamillliar with the exact specifications but this forum thread dives into this project in more detail. It might also be compatible with the R52.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=110787

I am currently using some glossy Dell Inspiron laptop with the adequate performance to render a webpage with unmandatory fancy animations and HTML5. I could only wish I could to the same on a trusty old IBM to browse the web normally with the famous business look and feel. If this project really lifts off, I can and will always use a classic ThinkPad.

EDIT: Unfortunately, it appears that this project has come to a halt and thus my last hope in ThinkPad, i will thus continue to endlessly optimise Linux and eventually surrender.

[ajkula66]

If this project really lifts off, I can and will always use a classic ThinkPad.

Not likely.

Less than a hundred boards have been produced, and only a handful has made it out of mainland China.

[Dekks]

With Sony hitting the wall with it's PC division too... I dunno. Who does that leave? Dell, HP? Naw. In my mind... Clevo, but even some of their more mid-market machines have horrid quality and sub-par options and equipment.

Sony wont be missed, they have been poorly managed and engineered for years. In some ways the Viao represents the fall of the Sony empire.

[pianowizard]

Sony wont be missed, they have been poorly managed and engineered for years. In some ways the Viao represents the fall of the Sony empire.

I agree with you that on average, Sony's laptops went downhill during the last 7 years or so of the Sony Vaio division, but that's just because Sony introduced budget-grade laptops to try to compete with the $200-to-$400 craptops that Acer, Dell and others were selling. If we consider only the flagship Vaios, they remained highly interesting until the very last one, the Pro13. I have owned about 80 laptops, including 45 Thinkpads, and am fairly certain that the Pro13 is my #1 favorite.

BTW, I wrote this almost exactly a year ago in this thread, just before Sony sold its Vaio division:

Thus, this may be my answer to the question the OP posed: "The Thinkpad is dead, long live Sony Vaios!"

[waterloo]

OEM manufacturers are going to be hit hard this year for two big reasons, windows 10 and skylark...

[bit_twiddler]

This is the real problem:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... -asus-acer

PCs are just not a lucrative market anymore, and the tablet market has now saturated as well.

The real money is in services that can be sold with a PC or tablet. If a company isn't well positioned
in those services, such as cloud storage, they probably won't be able to stay in the business of
of selling hardware.

Another issue is that the portable workstation / business laptop market has always been a small one
compared with that of consumer devices. It must be difficult for a big company to identify what
is essentially a niche market when much bigger ones are open to them.

[ThinkPad560X]

IBM must of seen the future. Sold the PC Laptops/desktops and last year their Servers to Lenovo. I think they went to just selling services now, no more hardware. If you look at it, even Sony and Microsoft for their game consoles is doing a lot of talk toward cloud gaming "streaming". You wouldn't even need a high power PC with the best graphics, all that will be done on the companies end, you just need a really fast connection to the internet.

[wisdomkeeper]

I am not happy with new Lenovo ThinkPad laptops. Edge series are low end and with low build quality. T series are not what they where. X series - like T series. I bought Lenovo X200 and I was shocked when I was looking for hardware maintenance manuals - I found out that I cant access completely the cooling system of the X200, when I remove the keyboard. To do so, I need to completely disassemble the laptop. This is outrageous. It's like I'm watching on some cheap piece of hardware, some cr..p like low end HP. I respected ThinkPad series because of very easy hardware maintenance and good build quality.
Not only the maintenance of the new X-series is ridiculously complicated, but I have problems with software support and drivers as well. After I reinstalled Windows 7 Professional X86, i can't get On Screen keyboard to work. I installed drivers from the Lenovo website, it says that everything is installed, but no graphical indication when you change volume or brightness. Also, there is no Wave out/Stereo Mix. Some people say that it's somewhere there, but it's deliberately disabled in drivers by Lenovo. So I cant record what I hear.

...you just need a really fast connection to the internet.

Well, I heard that this is a problem in some regions. Also, I don't like cloud computing. I want all content do be available offline as well.

[waterloo]

You wouldn't even need a high power PC with the best graphics, all that will be done on the companies end, you just need a really fast connection to the internet.

Eww. Degrade image quality even further ><

[axur-delmeria]

I found out that I cant access completely the cooling system of the X200, when I remove the keyboard. To do so, I need to completely disassemble the laptop.

It's been that way since the X40, back when Thinkpads were still made by IBM.

Dell's Inspiron 14R-N4110 is worse: you have to remove the system board in order to gain access to the hard drive(!!)
I know this because my brother has one and I upgraded the HDD last October. It's a 14-inch laptop but designed like a frigging netbook--absolutely unacceptable.

I respected ThinkPad series because of very easy hardware maintenance

The "very easy maintenance" comes not from being "easy to disassemble" per se, but from having readily accessible documentation like Hardware Maintenance Manuals. I had an ancient Thinkpad 760XD and it was a pain to disassemble, even with the HMM to guide me.

IMO those manuals are a godsend compared to scouring the Net for disassembly instructions because the manufacturer withholds the necessary documentation. If you're lucky, you'll find a leaked official service manual; if you're not so lucky you'd get a user-contributed disassembly guide that lacks a number of details; at worst you'll find nothing at all.

There was one time I had to disassemble a laptop where any form of disassembly instruction was unavailable.
Armed only with my experience, I managed to pull through without breaking anything, but it would have been much, much easier if I had the manual.

[brchan]

I have found that most lenovo thinkpads are easier to dissasemble and less prone to breaking under dissasembly than IBM thinkpads. For example, The 600 and 770 models have long plastic tabs connected to the keyboard, and may break if care is not used. Not to mention the awkward keyboard/lcd ribbon cables (especially the 770), which you also need to make sure you don't rip when taking the keyboard out. As another example on the T2x and T4x series, you have to "push and pop" the keyboard down and into the base to fully seat it. The little black tabs on the bottom of the keyboard frequently rub up against the top of the palmrest and can create scratches. Also, IBM thinkpads in general have more screws than most Lenovo thinkpads (600 series has surprisingly fewer, though).

This is not to say that IBM models were not built as well. Build quality, although still good on Lenovo models, still can't compare to the fit and finish of IBM ones. This is most notable on plastics quality. Lenovo models do benefit from a generally stiffer chassis due to the magnesium rollcage (especially later models). I would trust dropping my W530 more than my T61, T43, or T23 for that matter. The 600 or 770 would probably fair even better, though.

[wisdomkeeper]

Well, I was fine with the layout of the X2x/T30/T4x series. It was very easy to clean the fan. Remove the keyboard. The fan is below. 3 screws and you can remove the whole cooling unit. It was also very easy to add/replace RAM/HDD.