Fingerprint reader/motherboard question *PICS*

[murderingtool]

Hi,

I become sick of my T60p, its loudness and temperatures. I spend whole day trying to silence the high-pitch sound coming from the fan, to lower the tempratures by bending heat pipes and using thermal grease(what kind of idiot at lenovo/IBM thought it would be a good idea to apply thermal pads? Even cheap 1$ thermal grease is better). I succeeded, partially. Despite being more silent and colder, it's still loud and hot.
Fan and its annoying sound is the worst.

Enough is enough. I'm changing the motherboard and getting rid of this piece of [censored] FireCrap V5200 and installing GMA950. I already got my eyes on a cheap T60 motherboard with heatsink, but I'm unsure about a couple of things. As far as I know, T60 is almost identical in construction, placement of ports etc. so I wouldn't have much problem as long as the motherboard comes from a 15 inch model just like my T60p. I'm unsure whether the motherboard of T60 supports the fingerprint reader. Do I just need to connect the fingerprint reader and it will be just detected, even if T60 originally was without it, do all these motherboards support it?

Also, will GMA950 have any problems supporting 1600x1200 or 2048x1536(I plan upgrading to QXGA in the future)? I think it shouldn't. Please note I will not use 3D acceleration, so having V5200 is useless for me - only eats battery and makes everything annoying.

[RealBlackStuff]

The motherboards from all the NON-widescreen 14.1" and 15" T60/T60p are identical in size and ports.
All will fit and all support FPR.
ATI fans will fit on an Intel board, but not v.v.
You should read up on FrankenPads on this forum, and perhaps put in a T61 14.1" NON-widescreen motherboard with Intel graphics instead!
The T61 GM965 Intel graphics can support QXGA screens, but the T60 GM960 can NOT! T60 would need ATI.
On the T61 you can install up to 8GB RAM, and with Middleton's BIOS run HDs or SSDs at SATA II speed, plus a few good other things.

[murderingtool]

I remember reading somewhere that GMA950 did support QXGA screen, and I just made myself sure.

http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/gma950/

2048x1536 at 75 Hz maximum resolution

It's integrated into the 945GM chipset, which:

EDIT:

http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/datasheet/309219.pdf

LVDS Interface
• Panel support up to UXGA (1600 x 1200)

It really only supports up to UXGA resolution. That is a little disappoininting. I'll read up about T61 14.1" motherboard.

[TuuS]

I agree, the best option would be a T61 board. You will need to do some minor cutting on the frame and you'll have to remove the modem, but you'll gain much more.

Or if you want better cooling for your T60p board you can install a T61p heatsink. It uses thermal paste on the GPU instead of a pad and you'll need to modify the retainer clip slightly to clear the larger heatsink. I've had good success with this mod.

[murderingtool]

I bought T61 mobo (FRU 42W7648) along with a heatstink and cardcage. Everything works fine, I cut the frame, but apparently I must have done something a little wrong as the keyboard was very hard to fit inside, but it fits. I'll probably need to cut the frame some time again later.

It's very cool running now, if laptop isn't using anything CPU intensive fan doesn't even start, but when it does I still get a (quiet) high-pitch noise, which is probably caused by airflow through heatsink. What borhers me is a screeching sound when CPU power managment is enabled in BIOS (it is caused by C3 and C4 CPU powerstates, from what I checked). I can turn powerstates/option in BIOS off, but then battery life is shortened by about an hour, which is not nice(depending how often CPU idles). Is there some solution for that? I had the same thing with T60p, but even more problems with high-pitch noises, even coming from LCD. Now it's all gone, except this. If it's going to be of any help, I installed T8100 as the CPU. Also: it happens regardless of the OS, as in: happens to me both in Windows and Linux.

Is CPU dependent on that, is it motherboard specific? Can someone with a T61 motherboard tell me if they get it too, the screeching sound?
And of course, I installed middleton's BIOS.

[RealBlackStuff]

You bought a Merom CPU mobo, but after installing Middleton's BIOS you can also use Penryn CPUs like the T8100 and up.
Your screechy noise must come from a bad fan. I have made numerous Frankenpads, and never had a bad fan-noise.
Did you put in a proper T61 fan?
And any noise from the LCD usually points to a bad inverter...

[murderingtool]

The screechy noise doesn't come from the fan. It is still there when the fan is off. My T61 fan is definitely for the motherboard, it fits well and works well, except the that quiet high-pitch noise I mentioned earlier.

Screechy noise comes from the area near the CPU, and it is only present when on battery, and when CPU powerstates C3/C4 are enabled.
Limiting processor.max_cstate=2 by kernel arguments eliminates the noise completely, same as disabling CPU power management in BIOS. I don't see how it can come up from the fan considering this.

LCD noise doesn't appear anymore after changing the motherboard to the T61, it appeard on the T60p mobo.

edit: noise from LCD/inverter is present still, but at varying volume under different brightness settings. It is quiet and you have to stick your ear close to the panel to hear anything, especially when the volume is far quieter due to different brightness setting. I also noticed I have far more brightness levels on the new T61, at least twice as much.

[RealBlackStuff]

Your problem seems to be an OS problem, caused by some Linux distro, if I understand correctly.

[murderingtool]

No, this is not an OS problem. That has absolutely nothing to do with any operating system in existence to my knowledge.

This has something to do with how Thinkpad handles the powersaving features of the CPU, and I have no idea why this screeching sound is present. Manipulating the C3/C4 powerstates by kernel have the same effect as disabling BIOS option "CPU power management", because it handles powerstates of the CPU as well. Doing it by kernel also mingles with hardware, just like BIOS would. There's no other way I can prevent this sound from appearing, except resign from about 1 hour of battery lifetime by disabling CPU power management. That is my point.

Problem is present on Windows as well, at least on the "fresh" Windows 7 x86 installation.
I don't know if my English isn't understandable, or maybe I'm confusing you with something and am not clear.

This is a fairly common problem according to thinkwiki, sadly no solution present there was able to quiet it down, except the obvious one which is disabling the BIOS option. I also want to add, that the exact same sound was present on the T60p as well, coming from the same place. Solution also was identical, and also came with a battery sacrifice.

The sound is only present when on battery. Once I connect the cord, whether the battery is inside or not, the noise is gone.

Have you not encountered that on any other frankenpads?

[TuuS]

It would be interesting to see if you have this problem running a Merom cpu on your merom board. Your Penryn CPU has a more advanced thermal sensor that the board cannot read and the Penryn cpu can operate in ultra low power when not needed. The middleton bios doesn't fix this problem it only suppresses the boot error and I've never seen any opinions from someone with an engineering level understanding of these chips as to what is lost when using this configuration. I have built a number of frankenpads and have run penryn chips on merom boards many times, they perform well, but I think it's to be expected that you're losing something in regards to the power savings modes. I'd gladly give you a merom to test with, but you'd do better to find someone local to supply one, but please keep us informed.

[murderingtool]

Today I assembled my modified noT60p with the cheapest Merom processor I could find, T7100 for 5$ with shipping. Is the sound gone? No. Maybe it's a little different, I don't know, but what I know for certain that is is still there, coming right from under the radiator in the CPU section. Thermal sensing is also read, maybe not perfectly, (as it almost always shows 4C difference between cores), but temperature is accurate, looking at how it constantly rose under load and comparing it to T7100 sensors. Considering this, it's pretty much safe to say, that with middleton's BIOS, you lose nothing using Penryn CPU on a Merom board.

It boots exactly the same way Penryn (T8100) does with middleton's BIOS installed. Apparently I must have quite sensitive ears for so little people not to notice something that is quite noticeable in the silent environment. Are you people just deaf? This is the only logical explanation I have, considering that the same sounds came from T60p and T61 motherboard, across T2600, T7100 and T8100 CPUs, from the exact same place, and the only way to disable it currently for me is to disable CPU power management in BIOS or tell kernel to completely drop power-saving C-states higher than 2. I'm pretty sure it would appear on pretty much every T6x motherboard in existence. The only thing that I brought across the "platforms" is Wi-Fi card, RAM, HDD, battery, screen, power cord connector, BIOS battery and cables. I don't see how any of them could interfere. I tried dismounting Wi-Fi and changing the RAM to no avail, These are the only thing that I could see interfering with the CPU to some degree. Soon, I will change screen to QXGA and upgrade to SSD, but I'm 100% sure these things won't solve this problem, as I even tried running the laptop with dismounted screen. I don't see how battery itself could interfere either. I highly doubt these motherboards are faulty, as they're 100% functional.


Do you people really can't hear anything there? Maybe get your young child, or a nephew or niece, whose ears are more sensitive? Maybe they can hear it?

The only thing I think might work is undervolting the CPU which I will try sometime in the future. The sound is the loudest when the PC is booting into the system (at least in Linux with OpenRC). If you have some application keeping CPU busy, it's completely gone, if you let it idle for a minute, you can barely hear it. It doesn't change a fact that this sound is present, and is quite annoying when quietly surfing the web.

Looking at how many things I've already tried, I'm pretty sure there's nothing I can do to quiet it down. I guess I'll need to learn how to live with it. Thinkpads from T6x series are very nice laptops, but I guess nothing is perfect.

PS. Is there a single place on Earth where I can buy new/like new front lid cover? Mine is not in a good shape and I had a very bad luck at finding it anywhere in Europe.

[RealBlackStuff]

Did you put in a T61 or a T61p fan, what's its P/N or FRU?

Before you start making (false) assumptions, please note that TuuS is probably the top T61 Guru on this forum!
He must have had hundreds of T61 machines going through his hands over the years.
And if you read through his numerous other T61 posts, I doubt that he has missed anything!
My number of T61 machines is probably around 60-70 at the moment.
A dead giveaway towards your problem is your remark "tell kernel to completely drop power-saving C-states higher than 2".
This points clearly to some Linux aberration!
Which makes me wonder if you have checked the Linux forum here.
One other thing: Thinkwiki is made by (and basically for) Linux users. And I do not always believe what they are writing...

[rkawakami]

The screechy noise doesn't come from the fan. It is still there when the fan is off. My T61 fan is definitely for the motherboard, it fits well and works well, except the that quiet high-pitch noise I mentioned earlier.

If you have eliminated the fan as being the source of the noise AND the noise changes pitch or volume with a change in the laptop's power settings, then I'd say you have a resonating inductor in the motherboard.

The only other thing that I know of that can cause a high-pitched whine is an active microphone feeding back into the speakers.

[murderingtool]

This is my fan:

I don't know its FRU or P/N.

As you can clearly see, it's T61 fan for motherboard with Intel graphics.
It cannot be the source of that sound, as it doesn't appear at boot, and fan doesn't even start up until I get some CPU-intensive application. Fan isn't the problem in this case.
Regarding that high-pitch thing with the fan, it appears when the fan starts to spin. I'll try to lube fan's internals and see if it helps. Generally I don't like that fan goes ~2900rpm when there is no need for it to do so at all. It would work better if it went ~1500 or even lower when it wakes up from not running.

Thing is, I installed Windows 7 x86 and these noises were there too. If I tell the kernel to drop these C-states (higher than two), it doesn't matter whether I'd do it by BIOS (which CPU power management option does, allowing only C0 state) or by kernel. Windows won't allow you to do such a thing, because well, it's Windows, the worst operating system known to mankind. (turns out it is possible with some editing: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/975530/en-us <- not to confuse anyone)

You also sound like someone who doesn't like Linux for some reason, seeing how you distrust (technically very knowledgeable) people who are behind Thinkwiki. I used their wiki a lot of times, and it helped a lot of times, but it is definitely outdated in many aspects.

Also, the sound, it doesn't come from any weird, other place on the motherboard. I ran the laptop partially disassembled, and it came straight from under the radiator, from where the CPU should exactly be.

I'll do some more tinkering tomorrow and I'll see if I find something more informational.

edit:

This is the problem officially acknowledged by Lenovo itself:
http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/diagnos ... D=HT003817

If the above does not help, you may also disable CPU Power Management in the system BIOS. Under Config -->Power --> CPU Power Management --> change to "Disable". Then save and exit.

It sounds about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErkhU2qK-fM&NR=1

How come no one of you even heard these sounds, after having dozens or even hundreds of these Thinkpads go through your hands? Could I really be that unlucky to have two faulty motherboards? It's called "processor whine" all around the web, and you can here people complaining about this in many places, and not just about Thinkpads. If you're not deaf, then I don't know.

[rkawakami]

I ran the laptop partially disassembled, and it came straight from under the radiator, from where the CPU should exactly be

And if you look around there, you will probably find two or three inductors:

[murderingtool]

Indeed it comes from these inductors, at least the high-pitch sound. Screechy sound comes from.. around somewhere the CPU, possibly the inductors. That will remain a mystery. There's not really much I've discovered.

I decided to turn CPU power management off, the noise is just too annoying. I will lose some battery time. My dissassembled thinkpad without Wi-fi and optical drive shows 147 minutes idling at 54% charge on 5200mAh battery, so I guess it isn't really bad. I don't see any other practical solution.


Question remains, though - are you deaf, or am I unlucky?

[rkawakami]

Maybe both . My 56 year old ears have seen better days. I'm sure I've lost most of my ability to perceive high frequency sounds. Attend more rock concerts and/or start listening to music with the volume at "11" and I'm sure you won't be bothered by the noise anymore . I don't own any T6x systems but in the past I've heard the screeching noise coming from a T23 inverter.

Inductor noise can be both a steady tone and a scratchy sound. Depends upon the voltage/current across it. You might be able to isolate it to a certain component by using a trick that automotive mechanics have used for some time. You need to use something that is fairly dense, thin, long and electrically non-conducting. A wooden or plastic chopstick comes to mind. Place one end next to but not in your ear canal. Touch the other end to whatever you think might be generating the noise. The sound should be loudest when you're hitting the source of the noise.

[RealBlackStuff]

Good tip, Ray!
Both TuuS and I are also at an advanced age, so the both of us might also have some hearing problems
I never had a noisy motherboard though.
And I must have had a few hundred of all different types going through my hands for testing!
From reading the German Thinkpad Forum it is my understanding that they have regular meetings all over the country.
Maybe you could meet up with them and test their hearing?
http://thinkpad-forum.de/forums/34-User-Treffen