The search for the ultimate Thinkpad T4x - The start and end

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JHEM · #61 Post by **JHEM** » Thu May 12, 2005 7:21 pm

mlykke wrote:I will try that tomorrow - Its in the middle of the night here

BION, I actually know that. My Mother's family (Pedersen) is from Århus! I used to drive to Jutland from Nurnberg, DE on weekends to visit.

Can't you select English as the base language in XP? Might require a reinstall of the OS, but you should be able to select it during the initial setup.

Regards,

James

mlykke · #62 Post by **mlykke** » Thu May 12, 2005 7:27 pm

Cool

Let me know when you'll be in Århus the next time and we can meet up and exchange stupid Thinkpad stories

Anyway, i already selected danish as the language for both the system, keyboard etc.

But i got suspision that IBM has somehow embedded the model ID into the bios or something and then maybe all the IBM software you download check what model ID the computer is and sets the language accordingly.

mlykke · #63 Post by **mlykke** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:23 am

Update:

*yawn* Well it got to be abit more than four in the morning before i turned the thinkpads of and went to sleep.

So now im up again and will continue testing.

It's getting pretty confusing collectiong and showing all the results so i was wondering how you guys would like to get them?

Should i just collect everything and write up and article afterwards? Or should i just keep posting small bits in here?

Or should i start an article and write it as i complete each test and just keep it online for you to see the progress?

Anyway im off to testerland again

JHaislet · #64 Post by **JHaislet** » Fri May 13, 2005 6:23 am

Spread sheets are fairly simple.
Your doing all the legwork though, so what ever is easiest & quickest for you!
We're all really appreciative & will take it however we can get it

mlykke · #65 Post by **mlykke** » Fri May 13, 2005 7:38 am

Ok then. I'll post misc bits and so on here. And when im done ill write something up with some numbers.

Just finished several benchmark programs on the T42P.

Aquamark 3 - 21,262
3DMark03 - 2643
3DMark05 - 992

This test was run just after updating all drivers on the machine with the IBM installer software. So no specialized drivers or anything was installed.

Does anybody have some 3DMark scores to compare with? Or know where we can find some for similar laptops?

mlykke · #66 Post by **mlykke** » Fri May 13, 2005 8:47 am

Minor update

I'm still benchmarking the [censored] out of the T42P.
But i've noticed something about the WLAN cards.

Two of the machines has the Intel 2900 or whatever the latest one is called and they perform just fine. Good signal of around 80-90% connecting to a accesspoint about 10 meters away through 4 walls.

But the IBM WLAN card II is beautiful! I get 100% signal from the same location(well actually about a meter further away). And i havent had the signal to go under 98% yet - Thats just freaking amazing.

But before i upgraded to the latest driver the IBM card only got somewhere around 60-70% so the driver you use has a LOT to say.
But 100% signal is just NICE!

So far i like the T42P more and more. It's also more quiet than the T43's if i havent already mentioned this.

nikemen · #67 Post by **nikemen** » Fri May 13, 2005 9:14 am

mlykke wrote:Im posting bits of info as i do the tests but i think i might take everything and package it up as a short article of some kind. But dont expect me to go all mad in my writing.

But i just tested Max Payne 2 and it runs PERFECT. It can easily keep up no matter how fast i scroll the mouse around.

And [censored] its a great game. Whoever sugested it at some point just got me hooked.

This test was also done on the T42P.

So far this machine seems very fast for just about anything i throw at it.

why not post it at the top of the thread, and keep updating it. Changing BOLD text, NEWEST ENTRIES, to regular text everytime you post new information.

dukajoe · #68 Post by **dukajoe** » Fri May 13, 2005 10:51 am

So far i like the T42P more and more. It's also more quiet than the T43's if i havent already mentioned this.

How is the T43p as far as being quiet? I know you said that the regular T43 was the loudest, but is the 43p bad at all? Ill be using it to take notes in class.[/quote]

danny_isr · #69 Post by **danny_isr** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:10 am

dukajoe wrote:
So far i like the T42P more and more. It's also more quiet than the T43's if i havent already mentioned this.
How is the T43p as far as being quiet? I know you said that the regular T43 was the loudest, but is the 43p bad at all? Ill be using it to take notes in class.

[/quote]

i really wonder if the 43 is louder then the 43p. i don't see any reason why it sould ...but who knows
(higher performance video card + higher RPM on the HD should be warmer not colder)

dukajoe · #70 Post by **dukajoe** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:16 am

True, and true, but it does also have a slightly larger body construction, and the v3200 and all other workstation graphic cards have procedures by which they can turn of pipelines and memory to save power, and thusly run cooler. If your playing doom 3 then it will be a lot louder, but im thinking and hoping, that if I just have MS word open, the fan will not be that loud.

danny_isr · #71 Post by **danny_isr** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:21 am

from what i seen till now, the wireless did most of the difference on mine.
when wireless off fan is virtually off.

cubensis · #72 Post by **cubensis** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:12 pm

mlykke wrote:Ok then. I'll post misc bits and so on here. And when im done ill write something up with some numbers.

Just finished several benchmark programs on the T42P.

Aquamark 3 - 21,262
3DMark03 - 2643
3DMark05 - 992

This test was run just after updating all drivers on the machine with the IBM installer software. So no specialized drivers or anything was installed.

Does anybody have some 3DMark scores to compare with? Or know where we can find some for similar laptops?

Wow, those are really low.(yes I know it isn't made for gaming)
Some scores to compare with.
Acer Travelmate 8104 (Pentium M 2ghz,1gb ram, Radeon x700 mobility 128mb, 100gb 5400rpm.
3DMark03 - 5698
3DMark05 - 2269

Dell XPS2(Pentium M 760 2 ghz CPU, 512MB RAM, 60 GB 7200 rpm)
Aquamark 3 - 67,027
3DMark03 - 11,394
3DMark05 - 4911

mlykke · #73 Post by **mlykke** » Fri May 13, 2005 12:34 pm

Yeah but you are comparing to two machines which are mor eor less made for gaming. The X700 is a much faster chip and the Dell machine is a laptop made specifically for gaming.

So its not quite fair to compare. Remember these machines are NOT made for gaming but im doing the tests for the people like me who want a desktop replacement and would like to play farcry etc. but who dosnt expect 400 frames a second(which by the way is completely absurd since the human eye cant see more then 30-40 frames a second).

I've run Farcry on the T42P in both 1024x768 and 1400x1050 and it runs VERY nice. In the higest resolution its not nearly as smooth as the lower one, ofcourse, but it's still VERY much playable in my opinion.

But i can already now tell that the performance of the T43P is somewhat higher than the T42P in all aspects.
[censored] - That makes it so much harder to choose

cubensis · #74 Post by **cubensis** » Fri May 13, 2005 2:46 pm

mlykke wrote:Yeah but you are comparing to two machines which are mor eor less made for gaming. The X700 is a much faster chip and the Dell machine is a laptop made specifically for gaming.

So its not quite fair to compare. Remember these machines are NOT made for gaming but im doing the tests for the people like me who want a desktop replacement and would like to play farcry etc. but who dosnt expect 400 frames a second(which by the way is completely absurd since the human eye cant see more then 30-40 frames a second).

I think I mentioned that in my first sentence

.(yes I know it isn't made for gaming)

mlykke · #75 Post by **mlykke** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:01 pm

Update - Results so far

T42P
Aquamark 3
GFX: 2397
CPU: 9430
Total: 21,262

3DMark 03: 2643
3DMark 05: 992

PCMark 04: 3929
CPU: 3928
Memory: 2515
Graphics: 1860
HDD: 3216

T43P
Aquamark 3
GFX: 3000
CPU: 10,791
Total: 26,337

3DMark 03: 3155
3DMark 05: 1239

PCMark 04: 4173
CPU: 4047
Memory: 3280
Graphics: 2191
HDD: 3499

So from these benchmarks its clear that the T43P has an advantage. Roughly giving you about 24% more in Aquamark, 20% in 3DMark 03 and 25% in 3DMark 05. But you only get about 6% more in PCMark 04 indicating that due to both processors being almost the same speed, that in generel productivity there proberbly isnt much difference. It's mainly graphics and memory related as to be expected. There is also a noticeable difference in HDD performance but that is related to the increased bus speed in the T43P, so this is also to be expected.

In general both machines are very fast and runs just about any game quite nicely. Even though the T43P is better when you run a game like Farcry in 1400x1050. On the T43P it runs smoothly without a problem, but on the T42P it runs just a tad slower. Just enough so that you can feel it when you walk around, but not enough to actualy really see it.

So far the T43P is a clear winner in performance - But... The T43P is also more noisy than the T42P. Both computers fans are running nonstop, but the T42P runs very slowly and is therefor very very quiet and you have to put your to the machine to really hear it(unless you are in a VERY quiet place). The T43P runs noticable louder all the time. For me it's not enough to say that the T43P is loud, juster louder than the other one.
When the machines are running side by side, the noise from the T43P hides the fan noise from the T42P. You cant hear the T42P when the other one is running.

I will be using both machines sperately during the weekend so i can evaluate whether or not the actual noise from the T43P is annoying when doing work or if you get used to it.
I will also be trying the Centrino Hardware Control program to see if it's possible to make the T43P machine as quiet as the T42P. I will also find some software to see how many RPMs the fans are running with, since it sounds like the T43P is running alot faster which then explains the added noise.
Does anybody know if there is anyway to control how many RPM's the fan should use on certain "coolinglevels"?
If it is possible to lower the RPM then you should be able to have it as quiet as the T42P or very close.
Another difference between the two machines that COULD(untested) make a difference is the WLAN card. The noisy one is using the Intel card so maybe this card is running hotter than the IBM card? This is just a thought and is NOT confirmed.
Another possibility could be different BIOS versions but this hasnt been checked yet. I can try a number of different BIOS versions if it's possible to update the BIOS with a previous version. Is this possible?

Since it's possible to buy both machines at the same price(at least in Germany) the T43P is the winner if you look at performance. But if noise is an issue the T42P could be a good choice. The T43P is also only a clear winner if you play alot of games or do similar things which needs a good 3D performance. For general work you wont notice any difference at all.
The IBM WLAN card in the T42P is FANTASTIC. I have maintained a signal of 100% all day and not once has it gotten below 97%. The best the Intel has given me is 88% which is still a good result considering the distance and the number of walls between the computers and the accesspoint. But there is no question in my mind that you should go for the IBM WLAN II adapter instead of Intel. which means that if i choose to keep the T43P i will have to send it back to get the G7U instead of the G2U as i got now, since the IBM card is used in the G7U.

I will be testing the 1.86 Ghz T43 tomorrow, but i wont do as much testing on it unless the results surprice me. So i will proberbly only do the benchmarks like i did on the others, but without trying any games or maybe only trying one of them. But as i said - It depends on the results so lets wait and see.

So if anybody has any links or info to/about tools or similar that could alter the speed, voltage, fan RPM etc. in these computers then hurry and tell me about it so i can see if we can do something about the fan on the T43P.

I should point out that the fan on the T43P is NOT loud and im proberbly noticing it alot more since people have been talking so much about it. I can tell you that it is MUCH less noisy than for instance a Asus V6V where the fan runs ALOT more and alot faster.

Thats it for now. Let me know what your thoughts are on this and please give me all you got on voltage, fan RPM etc. So i can experiment with that during this weekend.

mwelz · #76 Post by **mwelz** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:33 pm

First of all: really cool test!!!! Thanx a lot!

Personally I would like to know your opinion if the T43p is better than the T43 (especially games performance). I can imagine that from the performance point of view the T43p will be better than the T42p for sure. But is the difference between the T43p and the T43 so big that it is really worth the higher price?

pointfielder · #77 Post by **pointfielder** » Fri May 13, 2005 4:33 pm

hi mlykke,
your efforts are truly appreciated!

many of us would be interested in seeing the results of the centrino hardware
control program as it seems to be working for everybody who has provided
feedback on it.

will you be installing MATLAB on any of the laptops? if yes, i would be interested
in a scientific benchmark (LINPACK matrix operations) comparison between T42p and T43p.
let me know and i will send you a very simple code to run in matlab that should take
a few seconds only.

thanks very much!

#78 Post by **RonS** » Fri May 13, 2005 6:32 pm

You mentioned earlier that the keyboard on the T42p is better than the others.

Where were all of them made? It the T42p's from Thailand?

Thanks

mlykke · #79 Post by **mlykke** » Sat May 14, 2005 9:55 am

Hi

How can i see if the keyboard is one kind or the other?

I've been messing around with Centrino HArdWare control and other programs to see if i could quiet down the T43P. I even tried both up and downgrading to all available BIOS'es but with no result.

The machine IS noticable more "noisy" than the T42P which is very quiet. The T42P is even more quiet when playing games than the T43P is in idle.
So the noise alone and the fact that i cant really feel a difference between the machines when i play games or just do office kinda work has made me decide on the T42P with the IBM card as the best Thinkpad currently available.
Im still testing a few more games just to be sure that i can get a good performance, but after trying a game like Farcry on 1400x1050 for a few hours and have it running very smooth i cant really tell the difference any longer.

asiafish · #80 Post by **asiafish** » Sat May 14, 2005 10:14 am

Thanks for the great test. I bought my T42p about 7-weeks-ago and at that time was trying to decide about getting it or waiting on the T43p. All doubt about waiting for the T43p vanished as soon as my T42p arrived, and I've really been enjoying it ever since.

danny_isr · #81 Post by **danny_isr** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:00 am

mlykke wrote: The machine IS noticable more "noisy" than the T42P which is very quiet. The T42P is even more quiet when playing games than the T43P is in idle.

When i play games on my machine , the fan doesn't spinning faster , it's the same as on idle (with wireless on). i even had a topic on that with a question.

asiafish wrote:Thanks for the great test. I bought my T42p about 7-weeks-ago and at that time was trying to decide about getting it or waiting on the T43p. All doubt about waiting for the T43p vanished as soon as my T42p arrived, and I've really been enjoying it ever since.

i wonder if the final decision was T43p , would you think that the test was that great as well ?

mlykke · #82 Post by **mlykke** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:02 am

Yeah - There is no doubt in my mind that the T42P is the best available thinkpad. If IBM fixed the noise problem on the T43P or it was possible to find some software which could control the fan on it, then the T43P would be better but only by a VERY small margin and mainly because it is a later generation and therefor a bit more futureproof.
Although with a 2.1Ghz processor in the T42P i have a very hard time seeing what i would need more power for.

I've been using a Pentium Mobile(Not the M(centrino) kind) at 1.6 Ghz and it more or less could handle everything i threw at it.

I will still do some testing on the gaming performance etc. on the T43 as i have promised some people, but just by doing a 2D graphics test it is clear that the machine is pretty far behind, although i can still be proven wrong

But since this project is over already, i've just thought of an idea to make it better so i have started another thread with part two of this project

danny_isr · #83 Post by **danny_isr** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:12 am

mlykke wrote:
I will still do some testing on the gaming performance etc. on the T43 as i have promised some people, but just by doing a 2D graphics test it is clear that the machine is pretty far behind,

in price too , don't forget that.

like u said, that in real life you didn’t see any difference between the 42p and 43p regardless the better performance on the 43p on your benchmarks . i believe this is the same case with the 43.

you need to check the T43 in games as well, and not only DOOM3 (that is Open GL game if i'm not wrong ,and that will give the FireGL cards advantage)
if there not much difference in performance . then why to spend so much more on the P models ?

#84 Post by **BillMorrow** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:15 am

GOOD WORK..

if you gather your results and send them to me or post them i'll read them and make a sticky..
and probably post on thinkpads.com..

how does that sound..?

being a published author might get you a press pass to the next CeBit (?) show in germany.. (uhmm, they DO have it in germany, right?

)

mlykke · #85 Post by **mlykke** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:15 am

I must admit that i hope you are wrong cause otherwise i will have a very hard time deciding which to get.
But somehow i doubt very much that it will be just as fast, because the 2D benchmark alone is pretty far off and 2D isnt really demanding like 3D is. But lets see - I'll begin some more tests now

danny_isr · #86 Post by **danny_isr** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:23 am

i'm sure there will be performance difference . but for the price you pay for a P model there better be a real Boost ....

BTW what is the exact price difference ? can you buy an external 19" LCD screen for that , or more ….?

Bluecat · #87 Post by **Bluecat** » Sat May 14, 2005 4:50 pm

Hi, great test. Some answers we were all waiting for.

What I do not understand is that you do not take into account the PCIexpress slot in the T43(p) that makes it more future proof or the spread of IRQ's, that make it perform internally more like a desktop machine.

Could you make a screenshot of the IRQ layout in the T43p (device manager, view by connection and expand IRQ)? Here you see the real internal change with the 915 chipset. I am really curious for this.

Did you find out if the area under the touchpad becomes hotter with the Intel than the IBM wireless card? You thought that might have something to do with the fan speed.

Bluecat · #88 Post by **Bluecat** » Sat May 14, 2005 4:54 pm

How is the fan noise in the T43p with wireless off?

mlykke · #89 Post by **mlykke** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:56 pm

Another update - This time on the T43

i'm sure there will be performance difference . but for the price you pay for a P model there better be a real Boost ....

Here are some numbers for you

Aquamark 3
GFX: 1893
CPU: 9830
Total: 17,263

3DMark 03 - 1911

PCMark 04 - 3163 (Im not 100% sure on this as i clicked the score away before i could write it down).

If you compare these scores to the T42P you can see that there is a noticable difference.
And my believe that the x300 chip is an inferior chip in regards to graphics performance is quite clearly shown in these benchmarks. It's almost 27% slower in the GFX score of the Aquamark, and a whopping 38% in the 3DMark. The sam results are found in the 2D tests i have done with the program i received yesterday. There's quite a performance difference. This fact alone is worth considering the P series over if you want a machine which will be able to handle things graphics wise in a few years time(Longhorn, new games etc.). The overall aquamark score is around 23% slower on the T43 than the T42P. And the general PCMark score is more than 24% slower as well. And with these results you need to remember that although the T42P has a faster processor it dosnt have as fast a bus or memoryspeed as the T43.

All in all i consider this a quite noticeable performance difference, and even though the T43 is cheaper priced i consider the T42P to still be the best option. Remember in this test the best option is not the cheapest but the one which gives you good performance now and proberbly a good performance in 2-3 years time at a good price and the T42P certainly delivers this.
Where i bought the machines the T43 costs 1950 euro and the T42P costs 2750. But for the 800 euro extra you also get 1 GB ram instead of 512 which will let you run mor programs at once much smoother(something the benchmarks dosnt test). You also get a much faster processor, which in normal office work dosnt make that much of a difference although the benchmarks actually show that it does give you almost 25% more. But if you use more than just a webbrowser and MS Office - For instance with programs like Photoshop, program development etc. then there is a very noticeable difference.
And on top of that you still get a much quieter machine.

But again - The result of this test all depends on what you use your machine for. If you only use your machine for a little webbrowsing, email, some office work then all the machines are MUCH MUCH faster than what you need. In that case you could use a three year old laptop and still have way more power than you need. And from that point of view the T43 is certainly a winner. But this test is mainly about finding the absolute best thinkpad available - although still looking somewhat at the price.
And if you do work like me which involves programming, databasedevelopment, photoshop work and generally have MANY programs running at once and you want a machine which can replace your desktop also in the gaming department then you can only consider the T42P and T43P in which respect the T43P wins from a purely performance point of view, but when you consider things like noise and batterytime etc. Then the T42P is the clear winner to me. It's got almost the same power as the T43P and in realworld tests in games both machines run games equally well and there is only a marginal difference in PCMark scores. So with the T42P with it's IBM WLAN card(in this config) you get a VERY quiet machine, which is very fast and which can run any game i have thrown at it at a very decent price. You get a machine which not only can handle anything you want done today but it sure will be able to handle most of what you throw at it in a few years time as well.
And in the graphics performance of the T42P you should also consider the fact that i have used the "official" openGL optimised drivers while the X300 has been using drivers optimized for games. If i where to use other drivers in the T42P i could proberbly get a better result in this department as well. And with the IBM card which constantly for days has been giving me 100% signal 10 meters away from my access point(through 4 walls) thats amazing stuff.

Since i've seen a few places where you can buy the T43P to the same price as the T42P - I would consider the T43P the winner if the noise hadn't been an issue(and it IS much noisier). Even if the room isnt completely silent you can still hear it and if it had a better batterytime.
After setting the CPU to dynamic switching with the Centrino hardware control software and setting the voltage at the lowest multiplier to the lowest possible voltage, the T43P could give me around 5½ hour of batterytime while the more or less as fast T42P could give me two hours more!! That is also a major plus if you use you laptop as an actual laptop

All in all the buildquality of all machines are excellent in every respect. The normal T43 had a slightly lower quality keyboard but that could just be a "monday" model, so i dont really consider that an issue - It's still much better than any other keyboard out there, so im talking about really nitty stuff.
So all in all they are all great machines, but the best buy is the T42P from the perspective of this test.

mlykke · #90 Post by **mlykke** » Sat May 14, 2005 8:12 pm

When i play games on my machine , the fan doesn't spinning faster , it's the same as on idle (with wireless on). i even had a topic on that with a question.

Well thats actually not a good thing in my opinion. That tells me that there is something very worng with the fan control. Since the idle temperature of the T43P is around 40-43 degress and the load temp with games can be some place in the high seventies and you dont sense a change in fanspeed - Then something is really off and it just proves my point that the T42P is better in this respect.

When running idle or doing webbrowsing and email with several(around 15) windows open at the same time the T42P stays VERY quiet and then when doing some really pushy stuff like games the fan speed up(as it should) but it is STILL more quiet than the idle T43P - That to me really indicates that the T43P is to noisy.

I have even tried undervolting the T43P and i have tried all available BIOS versions. Nothing changed the problem with the fan.
And considering that i get the same performance in the T42P as in the T43P with much less noise then i can only find one winner.
And even though the graphics benchmarks on the T43P is better, the realworld performance is the same to me at least with the 6-7 games i tried. Also considering that the T42P can run much longer on the battery(even though the T43P has a battery with a higher capacity) is just another big plus.

And before anybody tries to dismiss these results you need to remember that all machines has been tested under the exact same conditions and that in the end money is not a concern for me so i couldnt actually care less which one would be a winner from that point of view since i can afford them all. And i too would like to buy the newest machine available but not when it isn't better and in some areas actually is inferior to the previous version.

The only place where the T43P is actually more futureproof than the T42P is in regards to the expresscard possibility. But since that is a completely new standard and you dont even have any hardware available for this slot yet and also considering that just about any other laptop out there dosnt have it tells me that this really isnt a real reason for anything. Maybe in 5 years time - who knows. But this test has been made from a point of view with about 3 years use of the machine.

Another thing is that it is possible to upgrade the processor in the T43P more due to the new chipset and so on. But since you still cant upgrade the GPU i dont consider this a much valid point. If you have such a high need for processing power that you need something even faster than a 2.1Ghz processor then there is quite a good chance that you are doing work like CAD or similar 3D which in return relies just as much on the GPU and therefor you are still stuck in that department.
So unless you only use the machine for something like real demanding scientific calculations then i dont see much point or need for upgrading the processor witht he usage span considered in this test. And if you do that kind of calculations you would be much better of with a stationary PC anyway

Im sorry that im repeating myself a bit but im not exactly used to writing reviews and im sometimes answering the same questions more than once, so bear with me

The search for the ultimate Thinkpad T4x - The start and end

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