KingSpec SSD on T23 ?

[123434]

Can I use a cheap KingSpec ide SSD on T23 ?
- Is it faster than stock 4000rpm hdd ?

Link:
http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_sacat=0& ... c&LH_BIN=1
Link:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Free-shipping-Ki ... 27d46f11fe

Kingspec SSD 2.5" IDE/PATA 32GB KSD-PA25.6-032MS for laptop

[RealBlackStuff]

Kingspec is one of the worst SSDs that money can buy!
If you must have an SSD, go for OWC-Mercury Legacy Pro: http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/SSD/OWC/ ... Legacy_Pro
Any SSD will be faster than 4200/5400/7200rpm HDs.

[123434]

Is there or can I fit an ADAPTER of somekind to use modern sata I,II,III SSD drives ?
- Limited manufacturers of IDE\PATA SSDs.

[RealBlackStuff]

AFAIK an IDE/SATA adapter is already part of that SSD unit, and the SSD itself is SATA.
But why waste money? The T23 is too old and limited for anything newer than XP.
T23 (and T30) are great for working on car electronics (mainly because of the COM-port), but no longer really suited for internet.

[123434]

Is the Kingspec SSD bad because it won't last the given 1 million hours rating ?
- Are there any users who have bought cheap Kingspec SSDs and have experience on how they perform ?

[JBUK]

Dont know about Kingspec. I am using a Samsung 840. The T23 really flies with this even though it is limited by the ATA speed of the ultrabay.
I have just ordered a Plextor mSata SSD together with a mSata to IDE adapter to see if this will speed things up a bit more when plugged into the HDD position.

I am running XP on this. I do have a Windows 7 T23 but I don't give this much use as I prefer XP on the T23 for obvious reasons.

However I am going to dual boot the new Plextor SSD to see if the extra mph will make Win7 more acceptable.

[123434]

Samsung 840 PRO Series
How can you put 2,5" SATA III(SATA 3) SSD into PATA ?
Can you put photos of the SATA-HDD insertion ?
So I might also buy cheaper+reliable+easier to acquire SATA HDDs to my PATA T23 ?

Only cheap PATA 2,5" SSDs are:(12.2013)
- Transcend (32,64,128GB) More rare to find.
- KingSpec (2,4,8,16,32,64,128GB) Easy to buy ebay.

[jayton4]

Samsung 840 PRO Series
How can you put 2,5" SATA III(SATA 3) SSD into PATA ?
Can you put photos of the SATA-HDD insertion ?
So I might also buy cheaper+reliable+easier to acquire SATA HDDs to my PATA T23 ?

He is using the SATA hard drive in an UltraBay SATA adapter.
Check out the pictures here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261114735648

[123434]

How can I install Windows XP then if I don't have available CD\DVD drive ?
+ If I use the SATA SSD Ultrabay 2000 drive adapter ?

[JBUK]

How can I install Windows XP then if I don't have available CD\DVD drive ?
+ If I use the SATA SSD Ultrabay 2000 drive adapter ?

You need to create a bootable USB from a windows xp .iso file. Then simply boot and it will auto install using the usual user inputs.

[JBUK]

I have now installed the Plextor mSata SSD with a mSata to IDE adapter and have set it up with dual boot XP and Win7.

Windows 7 does run ok now on this T23. The only driver missing is the display driver but the W7 VGA seems to be ok for my purposes. Boot time (measured using Bootracer) is 58sec. A great improvement on the previous HDD I have to say.
I will happily use W7 on this Tpad as and when I decide that XP is a bit too risky to use online.

XP continues to run well with a W7 beating boot time of 42sec. Apart from that there is no appreciable difference in response times with either OS and indeed with my HDD equipped T60.

So all in all this is a worthwhile upgrade for those who still have a use for a teenage (?) Thinkpad. Mine is still not ready for retirement yet.

[GACrabill]

How can I install Windows XP then if I don't have available CD\DVD drive ?

You need to read this thread :
New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS* :
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=112081

[JBUK]

My setup using a Plextor PX 128M5M in the Lycom ST-1737 msata to IDE adapter continues to work well in my T23 as a dual boot XP/Win7 setup.
That is for one thing. The ATA speed runs at ATA2 not the ATA5 speed the T23 is capable of.
If I reinstall the original HDD then this runs at ATA5 which reveals that the issue is linked to the hardware change. I have tried the msata in two T23s with the same result.
I am using the standard microsoft drivers in both XP and W7.

I have been in touch with Lycom support but they have not come up with any solution yet.

Any ideas anyone on how to kick the IDE bus to run at the native speed ??

[RealBlackStuff]

Try installing the Intel chip drivers.

[JBUK]

@RBS: That is such an obvious route to take that I have explored it already but never came across any drivers I felt confident would work.
Lycom suggested deleting and reinstalling the existing drivers. This I have done with no benefit.

Interestingly when using a Samsung 830 or 840SSD in the Ultrabay these also run at ATA2.

I will have to have a hunt around for generic Intel drivers for the 82801CAM Ultra ATA storage controller 248A.

It is still a worthwhile upgrade for a T23 nevertheless. It is just human nature to want to extract the max speed possible after having gone to the trouble of installing an SSD.

[RealBlackStuff]

Try this:
1. Boot the system with administrator rights.
2. Click Start, select Settings, then click Control Panel.
3. Double-click System icon.
4. Click the Hardware tab, and click the Device Manager button.
5. On the menu bar of Device Manager, ensure Devices by Type is selected
6. Click the plus next to IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers.
7. Double-click CMD PCI-0648 Ultra DMA IDE Controller.
8. Double-click the first Primary IDE Channel. [repeat 8./9./10. for the second Primary IDE Channel to check the Ultrabay]
9. Click the Advanced Settings tab.
10. Click the down arrow at the Transfer Mode in the Device 0 and select "DMA if available".
11. Close all windows and restart the system.

CMD Ultra DMA IDE driver
http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc ... x427ww.exe

[automobus]

JBUK, I think you mean to say Ultra DMA mode 2 or UDMA2, not "ATA2". And T23 (ICH3M) is capable of Ultra DMA mode 5, Ultra ATA/100, ATA-6 (not "ata5").

Please find a CD-RW or USB drive or something else bootable in T23. Create a Linux liveCD or pretty much anything bootable, could just be the installer of a not-live distro. Boot Linux. Read the dmesg. Hint: run ( dmesg | less ; ). If you find a message "40-conductor cable detected", then your adapter might unfortunately have a manufacturing defect. You can also use hdparm ( hdparm -I | less ; ), and consider what it says about modes supported and current used mode.

You might wonder, why Linux for this? On multiple occasions, I have seen Windows XP (5.1) configure parallel ATA to slower modes, than contemporary Linux used. I cannot speak about Windows 6 or BSD.

[JBUK]

Try this:
1. Boot the system with administrator rights.
2. Click Start, select Settings, then click Control Panel.
3. Double-click System icon.
4. Click the Hardware tab, and click the Device Manager button.
5. On the menu bar of Device Manager, ensure Devices by Type is selected
6. Click the plus next to IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers.
7. Double-click CMD PCI-0648 Ultra DMA IDE Controller.
8. Double-click the first Primary IDE Channel. [repeat 8./9./10. for the second Primary IDE Channel to check the Ultrabay]
9. Click the Advanced Settings tab.
10. Click the down arrow at the Transfer Mode in the Device 0 and select "DMA if available".
11. Close all windows and restart the system.

CMD Ultra DMA IDE driver
http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc ... x427ww.exe

Thanks RBS but the device manager is already set to Automatic and DMA. The driver you have suggested is for NT and 2K which were before ATA5 was introduced so they may not be any better than my present drivers.

Either way I am on the road at the moment and relying on the T23 so will not be messing with it for a while.
Thanks for the suggestion though.

[JBUK]

JBUK, I think you mean to say Ultra DMA mode 2 or UDMA2, not "ATA2". And T23 (ICH3M) is capable of Ultra DMA mode 5, Ultra ATA/100, ATA-6 (not "ata5").

Please find a CD-RW or USB drive or something else bootable in T23. Create a Linux liveCD or pretty much anything bootable, could just be the installer of a not-live distro. Boot Linux. Read the dmesg. Hint: run ( dmesg | less ; ). If you find a message "40-conductor cable detected", then your adapter might unfortunately have a manufacturing defect. You can also use hdparm ( hdparm -I | less ; ), and consider what it says about modes supported and current used mode.

You might wonder, why Linux for this? On multiple occasions, I have seen Windows XP (5.1) configure parallel ATA to slower modes, than contemporary Linux used. I cannot speak about Windows 6 or BSD.

Thanks for your input. Semantics, nomenclature are all open to interpretation, but I think you know what I am describing.
Good point about the 40 vs 80 wire cable as this is what is needed to make the jump beyond ATA/33 speed.
Lycom say the adapter switches automatically up to ATA/133 so it is able to emulate 80 conductors and should be doing better. My HDD certainly reports in at UDMA Mode 5.
HD Tune says supported mode UDMA Mode 6 (ATA/133) and active mode ATA/33 so the adapter sort of looks as though it is not the bottleneck at the moment anyway.

But it is not just XP, when using Win7 the same speed limit appears as well.

I will set up a Linux boot Cd and see what that says following your good suggestion.

[JBUK]

Please find a CD-RW or USB drive or something else bootable in T23. Create a Linux liveCD or pretty much anything bootable, could just be the installer of a not-live distro. Boot Linux. Read the dmesg. Hint: run ( dmesg | less ; ). If you find a message "40-conductor cable detected", then your adapter might unfortunately have a manufacturing defect. You can also use hdparm ( hdparm -I | less ; ), and consider what it says about modes supported and current used mode.

You might wonder, why Linux for this? On multiple occasions, I have seen Windows XP (5.1) configure parallel ATA to slower modes, than contemporary Linux used. I cannot speak about Windows 6 or BSD.

I burnt a Linux live CD and then ran dmesg with the SSD in situ as you suggested. This clearly showed the issue with an entry ' limited to UDMA/33 due to 40 wire cable'. The SSD itself showed as capable of UDMA/133.
I then installed the original HDD. This showed no error message and the correct configuration of UDMA/100.

I have reported my findings to Lycom support for their input.

The other oddity about this is that when I used to run a Samsung 840 SSD in the ultrabay this too only ran at UDMA/33

So still work in progress.

[automobus]

I am no computer engineer. I am puzzled! I wonder, how does any PATA drive in a ThinkPad influence conductor detection? Pin 34 in a drive, is for PDIAG. Pin 34 in host-end of a PATA cable, is for CBLID. I connected my ohmmeter to my (supposed) ST-173, a ordinary 2.5-inch PATA drive, and to a 3.5-inch PATA drive. Between pins 34 and 40, about 109 kΩ found in both mobile drives. Between pins 34 and 40 of 3.5-inch HDD, resistance found was 39 kΩ. The ordinary HDD uses UDMA5 without trouble. My mSATA adapter triggers 40-conductor detection in ThinkPad X22.

[JBUK]

That is an interesting finding automobus.
Out of curiosity I installed both my SSDs with the Samsung 840 in the ultrabay and booted Linux from USB then ran the dmesg command.
This showed as expected both drives running with 40 wire cable detection. So it seems to me that the SATA to PATA adapters in both locations need something extra to get them to correctly recognise an 80 wire cable.

Oh well its the joy of using old Thinkpads.

[automobus]

edit: speculative content removed. I do not consider Addonics ADMS25IDE to be a sound purchase. I write more about it in T40 department.

[RealBlackStuff]

Someone mentioned a jumper on these Kingspecs ( http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113049 )
Any helpful?

[JBUK]

Lycom support have replied to me giving two options :

1. Return for a refund. Not being a defeatist I wont be doing that (yet)
2. Grounding pin 34 to force 80 wire cable detection. I might have a go at this to see if it makes a difference.

There is another type of mSata to IDE on eBay there is no manufacturer shown. The part ref is ST663FD9.
Has anyone tried one of these I wonder ?

[automobus]

With pin 34 is connected to ground, Linux on my X22 detects this as usual:
ata1.00: ATA-8: SAMSUNG SSD PM810 mSATA 128GB, AXM18D1Q, max UDMA/133
ata1.00: 250069680 sectors, multi 16: LBA48 NCQ (depth 0/32)
ata1.00: limited to UDMA/33 due to 40-wire cable
ata1.00: configured for UDMA/33

I highly doubt this has to do with host controller cable detection. I think, the problem is what device reports. People experience this same problem with knockoff Ultrabay adapters. Genuine Ultrabay Slim SATA HDD Adapter does not exhibit this problem.

edit 2015-10-04 add :
Genuine Ultrabay Slim SATA HDD Adapter does induce this problem, in affected ThinkPad systems. The problem is host controller parrots what device reports, instead of performing its own cable detection.

[Johan]

There is another type of mSata to IDE on eBay there is no manufacturer shown. The part ref is ST663FD9. Has anyone tried one of these I wonder ?

Yes! This adapter has been discussed quite a bit among T4x-users; see the thread New SSD opt. for T4x : mSATA-to-IDE adapter ST663FD9 *PICS*. In this post the OP of this thread, GACrabill, wrote:

Johan is looking for "Addonics ADMS25IDE/Marvell adapter" experiences in T40/p-T42/p models. Even though my mSATA experiences are with the "ST663FD9 adapter", they may be of value also.

T40 (w/T40p motherboard and ATI-9000), ST663FD9 adapter:

- Plextor M5M, 256 GB, mSATA, works with Win7 and XP ... (Marvell controller and Toshiba NAND)

- Toshiba THNSNF128GMCS, 128 GB, mSATA, works with Win7 (not tested with XP) ... (Marvell controller and Toshiba NAND)

Positive experience reported by clgr000ar in his T40 with the "ST663FD9 adapter":

- Crucial M4, 64 GB, mSATA, works with Win7

A very, very interesting topic, this: Which mSATA SSD's are completely compatible with either the Lycom/Addonics/Aleratec/DeLock (ST-173-7) adapter or with the Minerva ST663FD9 adapter? We are many users who are almost dying to find out about this!

Thanks for sharing all your experience, and for your persistence with getting "this thing" to work at full speed!

Johan

[JBUK]

Especially for Johan and for automobus here is where I am with this T23/SSD experiment.

In the T23 using the Lycom ST-1737 adapter and Plextor PX 128M5M mSata SSD in the HD0 or Ultrabay positions it works fine using either XP or Win7. Albeit the ATA speed is limited to ATA/33 in either position. A conventional HDD runs at ATA/100.
These speeds are verified by looking in Device Manager and running Crystal Disk Mark (CDM).

CDM SSD speeds are around 30MBs for linear and random read and write, the 4K test gives 11 and 13 read and write. An HDD returns around 50 for linear and 25 / 30 for random with 0.4 and 0.7 r/w at 4k.
Lycom support say that the implementation of ATA/100 in the T23 which occurred around the time of the new standard being released is why their adapter will not work at native speed.
Hmmm I am not 100% sure about that but not in a position to dispute it except to say that an HDD runs at ATA/100 but the SSD only runs at ATA/33. In practice the HDD does not show a better random CDM result so perhaps this academic benchmarking is always going to be just that and not relating directly to real world performance. Because there is a noticable performance improvement with an SSD. Its quicker with XP than Win7, the measured boot time as well. It may be that without running AHCI on the T23 the SSD speed will never achieve its SATA speed aspirations. But ATA/33 is disappointing to say the least !

TRIM: I have a dual boot XP and Win7 setup and using Trimcheck to evaluate this I always see in Win7 near instant operation of trim when deleting a file. However leaving the T23 idling Win7 overnight does not deleted data on shared with XP partitions or indeed any data deleted earlier.

In XP I have to rely on the Plextor garbage collection to tidy things up. It does do this, but not very often and it is not clear how and when it kicks in. I do not think it is very effective therefore as I sometimes see my deleted trimcheck test file overwritten before the automatic cleanup has kicked in.

Some of the above addresses the other issue of using an SSD in a sata to pata ultrabay adapter with similar poor results

That's it for now as I have moved on to SSDs in a T61 with disastrous results.

[GACrabill]

... In XP I have to rely on the Plextor garbage collection to tidy things up. It does do this, but not very often and it is not clear how and when it kicks in. I do not think it is very effective therefore as I sometimes see my deleted trimcheck test file overwritten before the automatic cleanup has kicked in.

Is your Plextor PX 128M5M mSata SSD using the current 1.05 Firmware ?

[JBUK]

... In XP I have to rely on the Plextor garbage collection to tidy things up. It does do this, but not very often and it is not clear how and when it kicks in. I do not think it is very effective therefore as I sometimes see my deleted trimcheck test file overwritten before the automatic cleanup has kicked in.

Is your Plextor PX 128M5M mSata SSD using the current 1.05 Firmware ?

Yes I downloaded and installed it on Jan 9th.