Best 4:3 machine... Toughbook vs. Thinkpad?

[Medessec]

My high-school friends were fortunate enough to visit me at my college town of Chico to see the sights and spend a day hiking, biking, driving around and eating horrible American food, all the rest. WE also had a wild video gaming night, and my friend who has a major in programming had the nerve to pop my cherry: He was asking that "the people I tell him about" (that's you guys) "if they want 4:3 screens so badly, why don't they get a Panasonic Toughbook?" Because I've been telling him about my convoluted plans to make a Frankenpad and possibly endure the absolute pain of attempting an LED-lit UXGA screen cable/inverter mod or finding a QXGA(my life is over), and how the 51nb guys have made a custom motherboard to give the T4x laptops a new lease on life. It just seems like a lot of hubba-lubba to him just to get an aspect ratio that still exists scarcely on the Toughbook.

So I told him that really-it boils down to the screen. He raised an eyebrow at me, but I just want to ask you guys on here, that is the thing right? Yes, there are other factors, we don't want to lug around a brick of military hardware, spend a bgillion dollars, the Thinkpad aesthetic is just the most fantastic thing in the whole wide world, etc... but the screen, is just tops.

I'm pretty sure if I had a Toughbook to demonstrate, he would've seen the tragedy, because I showed him my X60T SXGA+, and he got sort of an idea. I showed him and another friend of mine a T43p that I happen to have on hand at the moment that has a gorgeous Flexview UXGA without any flaws, and they were pretty convinced. My programmer friend ended up playing Worms: Armageddon on it and really enjoyed the screen. Then I told him about the Toughbook's screen based off what I've heard on here, and personal research... a puny, 13" screen that uses XGA resolution(WHAT?!) and MAY be bright... but has poor color reproduction and definition. And doesn't have IPS technology, which, really... is a fantastic luxury.

I outlined for him the best 4:3 Thinkpads:

all original:
-T43p with 2.26 GHz P-M, V3200, and 15" UXGA.
-R50p with 1.7 GHz P-M, T2, and 15" QXGA.
-T60p with 2.33 GHz T7600, V5250 and 15" UXGA.
-T61p with 2.53 GHz T9500, FX570M and 14" SXGA+.

or the renowned... I think it's called T601F? Meh. T60/61 Frankie, or T60 15" with a 14" T61 4:3 mainboard plopped inside.

The coming T50 board for T4x chassis as well, and that wicked hack I've read up on of a T500 board stuffed inside a 15" T60 chassis and roll cage.

[RealBlackStuff]

There are a few Toughbooks with IPS, but all in low resolution.
The nearest one to our favorite Thinkpads would be the Y5 with a superb 14.1" SXGA+ screen which is NOT IPS.
I hate all those rubber grips and other bits that make those Pana's Tough though...

[Neil]

If one needs a very rugged machine for outdoor use (in sunlight), then...Toughbook for sure.

For high rez 4x3 Flexview...ThinkPad.

So it depends on what one needs/wants as to which would be best.

[ajkula66]

Some of the *very* old ToughBooks - I believe CF-50 would be one of them in some guises - actually used the same UXGA IPS screen found in ThinkPads, made by IDTech.

However, the panel was simply not rugged enough and that was the end of that story.

My work-issued laptop is a CF-31 with 13.3" XGA hi-nit panel. Viewing angles? What viewing angles? As bad as some of the older ThinkPads in that respect BUT

One doesn't buy a $5K+ ToughBook CF-31 to edit photos on it unless they are outright certifiable.

If I were allowed to own just one laptop that all of my work/life would depend on, it would be a ToughBook - most likely the latest version of CF-52 - and not a ThinkPad.

At the end of the day, Panasonic's QC trumps Lenovo's by a huge margin any day of the week and any hour of the day. Period.

[Cigarguy]

For me it boils down to price, availability of parts, size and weight. Thinkpads are cheaper, with lots of machines and parts kicking around, lighter and in my books not as bulky. Even working in the construction industry with dust, dirt and stuff falling everywhere, a Thinkpad is plenty durable enough for my needs. Where I live a used T60 can be had in the $60-$80 range and a T61 for not much more. T4x are just to slow for daily runners. So if something happens to my beloved T60 or T61, no biggie, out comes the SSD, HDD, RAM and CPU into the next T60. Back up and running minutes.

[Saucey]

I honestly would own a Toughbook if I were in the market for one.
They are tough machines, really bulky yes, but I would love to own one of those machines with a handles.

I got into ThinkPads because it was hyped upon, as well as buying Sony MDR-V6 and building my own desktop.
Elitebooks and Precisions are good ones as well, but I heard that their trackpoints and keyboards aren't as great as ThinkPads in general.

If I come across one from craigslist who'd want to trade for one of my ThinkPads I would definately trade it given the deal was great for both of us.
But really I'd have not much use for it, I'd take it to college once I move to Los Angeles if I owned one because I highly doubt anyone would want to steal it.
I really have no use for one unless it was a diagnostic tool but I don't have those type of skills in the first place.

I asked my cousin for one but they've have it stashed away in the garage, maybe when I fix their tablet I'll get it as payment.
It has a broken LCD, suffered the typical scenario where someone leaves it on the floor and their friend/significant other steps upon it.

[Tasurinchi]

Well, I think Toughbooks are a a league of their own, difficult to compare to Thinkpads or any other brand.

One doesn't buy a $5K+ ToughBook CF-31 to edit photos on it

I fully agree here. If you buy a TB is not because you wan't to brag about the screen, the trackpoint, the touchpad, the keyboard or a roll cage. If you buy a TB it's because you want to have a machine that will keep working in any possible tough environment. (At least the fully rugged ones)

I own a CF-W4 and it's a nice machine. Screen is neither particularly bad nor particularly good , but it's light and very portable.

[pianowizard]

The nearest one to our favorite Thinkpads would be the Y5 with a superb 14.1" SXGA+ screen which is NOT IPS.

I have owned a Y4, Y5 and Y7. All have 14.1" SXGA+, and all are fairly good. The truth is, I don't recall ever seeing a 4:3 laptop with a terrible screen. (The 14.1" UXGA screen from a Dell Inspiron 4100 was probably the worst one in terms of contrast and viewing angles, and even that was totally acceptable.) In fact, for 4:3 laptops, I preferred TN over IPS because:

1) IPS screens got dim fairly rapidly;
2) TN panels were lighter than IPS panels;
3) TN panels used less power, so the battery lasted longer.

The 16:10 era was when I started to see awful laptop screens (e.g. the Dell E4200, the Thinkpad R500), and things got even worse for 16:9 laptops.

Well, I think Toughbooks are a a league of their own, difficult to compare to Thinkpads or any other brand.

But I do think the business-class Toughbooks can be compared to the Thinkpads. The fully rugged Toughbooks should be compared with Dell's and HP's rugged laptops, not any of the Thinkpads.

I own a CF-W4 and it's a nice machine. Screen is neither particularly bad nor particularly good , but it's light and very portable.

I too feel this is the main reason for getting 4:3 Toughbooks. Back then, none of the other manufacturers had anything nearly as light AND solid. Even now, not many 14" 16:9 laptops are as light as my CF-Y7, even though a 14" 16:9 screen is significantly smaller than a 14" 4:3 screen. And the Y7 has an internal optical drive! BTW, my Y7 weighs even less than the official weight, only 3.23 lbs, because I replaced the original HDD with a microSATA SSD.

[ArtShapiro]

Where I live a used T60 can be had in the $60-$80 range and a T61 for not much more.

Presumably these are XGA models - correct?

I don't think units with more useable resolutions are anywhere near that price point, unless you have some really nifty sources.

As one who doesn't care for widescreens (I gave away my T61) and absolutely detests 16:9 units, this topic is of considerable interest. I'm finding the memory limitations of my two T60p machines to be more and more of an issue, but have no alternatives.

Art

[ajkula66]

As one who doesn't care for widescreens (I gave away my T61) and absolutely detests 16:9 units, this topic is of considerable interest. I'm finding the memory limitations of my two T60p machines to be more and more of an issue, but have no alternatives.

Art

FrankenPad? That's still the best ThinkPad-related option...

[A31]

Honestly guys, I know you're all going to disagree with me and I can only speak for desktop monitors (not laptop displays), but I could never go back to my 4:3 17" 1280x1024 display after having used my 16:9 1920x1080 24" display for 3 years now. I could probably happily use a 4:3 monitor as a secondary monitor to use in conjunction with my 16:9 display, but I could never use a 4:3 display as my only display on my desktop which I spend hours a day working at.

Am I only the one who prefers the widescreen format? For a start, I find multitasking with widescreen displays (especially when they're 1080p or higher resolution and large) a lot easier because you can comfortably have two applications open side by side. Of course I also find widescreen better for gaming and watching films and editing video (because you can see more of the timeline) and editing photos. In fact, I'd never go back.

Now, I've only owned 4:3 laptops, but I've worked with widescreen laptops - in fact there's one sitting downstairs as we speak, but really, I'd personally take widescreen any day of the week.

Just my opinion.

[Ibthink]

Am I only the one who prefers the widescreen format?

No, you are not! I really don´t like 4:3. Widescreen is better in many ways - better for Multitasking, better for Multimedia, and with the newer high-res displays, also better for Office usage.

And I also don´t like Notebooks that are square. I prefer rectangular ones. But that is only a minor point...

[A31]

No, you are not! I really don´t like 4:3. Widescreen is better in many ways - better for Multitasking, better for Multimedia, and with the newer high-res displays, also better for Office usage.

Good to see. You listed the reasons I mentioned for preferring widescreen over 4:3 too.

I for one could never go back. I challenge you lot on here to use a widescreen desktop monitor for just a week and then go back to a square 4:3 monitor.

[Neil]

As can be seen in my sig, I have several models with both wide and 4x3 displays. Which I prefer depends greatly on the task at hand. For multi-media I do prefer a wide screen, but for multi-tasking I much prefer two separate monitors over one small wide one, or a single 4x3 for that matter.

My current desktop set up consists of two 1024x1280 monitors, and it fits my needs just fine for most things, multi-media excluded.

For reading web pages or pdf files I like the added vertical resolution of a hi-rez 4x3 display (15" UXGA). On a 14" wide screen the display is just too short, no matter what the resolution is. If the resolution is high enough, then it's too small, if the resolution is low enough to read the text, then there isn't enough info on the screen without scrolling up and down. It can be frustrating, but the thing is, there just isn't one perfect display for everything.

[noranalyst]

I am personally very ambivalent about 4:3 versus 16:9 screens for laptops. The best argument for the latter is, as mentioned above, the possibility for multi-tasking. While I find that multi-tasking in many cases is destructive, it is often the case that what is multi-tasking for the computer is really a single task for the user, for instance if you take notes from a webpage into Microsoft Word. I used Dell Latitude D820 from 2006 to 2010, a computer which I was generally very satisfied with. In the beginning, I preferred my previous 14.1 inch 4:3 computer, which I found more comfortable with full windows in especially office programs and browsers. And when I now compare it to my refurbished T60, I have to say that the D820 feels a bit unsuitable (relatively) in the vast majority of cases when you don't "window-multi-task".

The two-monitor solution would absolutely be preferable if I knew how to use them with the same computer. As I also consider buying a new non-chiclet 16:9 laptop at some point - these are my (discovered - I have found no good updated list online) candidates: Fujitsu Celsius H920 (a bit old and very heavy), Samsung Series 6 notebook 600B5C-S03 (the 15.6 inch 16:9 screen might not be high enough for me as I cannot use high resolutions), and Dell Precision M6800 (the keyboard is only "semi-chiclet", which I have not tried) - I wonder if it will be possible to use the screen of the second computer, in some rare scenarios when I cannot use a desktop monitor as an external monitor, but have room for two laptops (e.g. in the cabin), preferably if only the screen on the second monitor will take up power. (In the majority of cases it will of course suffice to use the computer with the 16:9 screen, but suppose the relevant files are on the 4:3 computer, and I cannot easily synchronize ...)

Without getting too off-topic, I have a bit guilty conscience for still looking at candidate computers months after receiving my T60, which I was lucky enough to get an NMB keyboard with (or so I think - I haven't heard if it was replaced at some point, but I consider it unlikely), since I have found that "Franckenpadding" it will be a complicated task which I need help with, and I have had a few issues with it (non-responding keyboard from time to time, today when using 100 % of the CPU during a TPFancontrol test; small and non-flat arrow keys; too warm palm rest; less comfortable palm rest/keyboard (the latter and to a lesser degree the former I have started to adjust to) especially for long sessions compared to my D820); a little dim IPS screen (Refurb confirmed that I could have it replaced if it was more dim "than one could expect", but I have not challenged them at that yet); a more uncomfortable touchpad compared to D820 - I am slowly getting better at using the trackpoint; and the computer being very unsatisfactory for watching television records (NRK uses a high-demanding flash format. I don't know the significance of upgrading to Core 2 Duo with regards to this, and how much the clock speed will matter for that). While I expect, or hope at least, the T60 to last many years for typewriting and light "single-task" browsing, I don't think I can use it as my only portable, although I could be relieved if any of you could help me with some of my indirect questions above, e.g. regarding the CPU upgrade.

I also want to ask if any of you have experience with using an external keyboard to a 16:9 screen computer? It will be important for me too have a combination of a sufficiently short distance to the screen, large enough elements / not too high resolution, and enough elements in the height. I will often use a mechanical keyboard as my external keyboard, so it will probably take up a bit space. I believe I will not get satisfactory results with a 15.6 inch screen, since I was barely satisfied with the height on my 15.4 inch D820 (I could only use 1440x900 - without an external keyboard). Then the only alternative seems to be a laptop with a (matte, or with some matte screen protector?) 17.3 screen or higher. Even when using a mechanical external keyboard or a good non-mechanical one during long portable sessions, I would want to have a non-chiclet keyboard on the laptop (except if it is of quality, but it is hard to test business-class laptops beforehand, as they are a rare sight in Norwegian electronics stores). Therefore, I wonder: Is it likely that there will be a tiny remain of laptops with non-chiclet (or "semi-chiclet") keyboards, or should I buy one of the above or one I have not discovered yet before they get out of stock?

And, just to play with the thought, I guess a Toughbook CF-31 (costs about twice as much in Norway as new from Ebay) is unsuitable for studies? (I think especially about weight and "keyboard height".) At least the handle I imagine is very practical when one only needs to carry the laptop and a book.

Edit: Perhaps I should instead "dream" about something like this, albeit in a higher dimension, where one could assume that one can effectively switch between one- and two-window mode.

[ajkula66]

And, just to play with the thought, I guess a Toughbook CF-31 (costs about twice as much in Norway as new from Ebay) is unsuitable for studies? (I think especially about weight and "keyboard height".) At least the handle I imagine is very practical when one only needs to carry the laptop and a book.

Depends on what you're used to.

CF-31 is a deadly weapon unlike most of today's notebooks/netbooks/ultrabooks...

Mine sports a conventional (non-backlit/non-island) keyboard and I prefer it to the backlit one that some of my colleagues have. The typing feel isn't all that great either way though.

That machine was an absolute lifesaver for me while we were clearing the mess that Sandy had unleashed upon NYC. No other laptop would've survived.

Having said that, unless you *really* need the ruggedness of it there are much better choices regardless of what type of school one is attending.

[noranalyst]

My problem is that the choices get fewer and fewer as there are fewer and fewer non-chiclet keyboards. While I do not rule out that I can possibly use some of the (chiclet- and) semi-chiclet ones, they will typically belong to business class computers like Precisions or gaming computers like Alienware which are difficult to find in computer stores. Lenovo I do not want to support, even if I were to find e.g. the T430 style keyboard acceptable. As I understand, HP has thrown out even the semi-chiclet keyboard in their current EliteBooks, which is a pity, as I like the horizontal placement of Home, PgUp, PgDn and End on that one. Panasonic Toughbook CF-52 is a 15.4 inch 16:10 alternative here, but a little too heavy for what is still a low screen compared to T60.

If I am to believe what I have read in a forum-thread about the older semi-chiclet style EliteBook, where it is described as worse than the traditional one (should I believe them and my personal feeling, or Notebookcheck, which also tends to have no problem with the chiclets ...?), I should really reject Precision M6800 for a future long-term purchase, and concentrate on Samsung 600B5C-S03 and Fujitsu Celsius H920. The former is only 15.6 inches and has a mediocre display. The latter I don't know if there is a fan control for, and there is generally much less information about Fujitsu computers on the web than Dells, HPs and especially ThinkPads. As I interpret Notebookcheck, I must be prepared to use an external mouse for the H920. I also tried a refurbished Lifebook E8110 for a short time with Windows 7, and Fujitsu did not provide any drivers for that OS. It seems that at least the new 15.6 inch H730 model from Fujitsu will, unlike H720, come with chiclet keyboards, so it might be that T60/H920(?) will need to last until I can 3D print a laptop or some special-segment brand comes to its senses.

I tend to get more and more tempted about the H920, even if the function keys are not in three groups. And as the computer will be mainly a desktop replacement, with its portable functions reserved for when I need them (the T60 should be fine for studies), the weight should not be that much of an issue, although 4.25 inches is a lot! As it has been around for about a year, I probably should not wait too long buying it.

How likely is it that we will see a high-quality business class non-chiclet >=17 inches laptop again?

[Temetka]

Since it would appear to me that the primary question of a 4:3 laptop as Thinkpad vs. Toughbook, I would prefer the Toughbook. Those things can take a severe beating. That being said, I have used Thinkpad's as my primary laptop for years because of their durability. They are nice machines. Maybe not as tough as a ToughBook, but still much better that a lot of other machines that are available.

Now as for the widescreen question, I greatly prefer widescreen to 4:3 on my laptops. That being said I am drawn to 4:3 android tablets. Mainly for reading. I don't really play anything game wise on the tablets I do own.

[pianowizard]

Honestly guys, I know you're all going to disagree with me and I can only speak for desktop monitors (not laptop displays), but I could never go back to my 4:3 17" 1280x1024 display after having used my 16:9 1920x1080 24" display for 3 years now.

Desktop and laptop screens are very different. For laptop screens running non-DPI-scaled Windows (many of us strongly prefer Windows' default scaling), 130±10 DPI seems to be the preferred range for lots of users. Looking at the list of laptop resolutions that I have maintained over the years, these relatively common size/res combinations are available between 120 DPI and 140 DPI:

4:3
10.4" 1024x768
14.1" 1400x1050
15.0" 1600x1200

16:10
12.1" 1280x800
13.3" 1440x900
14.1" 1440x900
15.4" 1680x1080
17.0" 1920x1200

16:9
11.6" 1366x768
12.5" 1366x768
14.0" 1600x900
15.0" 1600x900
16.0" 1920x1080
16.4" 1920x1080
17.3" 1920x1080

For people who use a lot of text-based applications and who don't want to scroll up and down too much, the number of pixel rows (i.e. the second number in the resolution designation) needs to be reasonably high. Quite a few people, including myself, want at least 1,000 pixels vertically, which means only these screens from the above list would qualify:

4:3
14.1" 1400x1050
15.0" 1600x1200

16:10
15.4" 1680x1080
17.0" 1920x1200

16:9
16.0" 1920x1080
16.4" 1920x1080
17.3" 1920x1080

While 15.4" 1680x1080 is reasonably portable, the other widescreen form factors are huge, and not many people are willing to lug around them on a frequent basis. 14.1" 1400x1050 is the most portable of the bunch, and 15.0" 1600x1200 is still just compact enough to fit a fairly small carrying case. True, the 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 screens from the above list would make it easier to have two windows open side by side, but not everyone is willing to sacrifice so much portability in exchange for side-by-side viewing. On the other hand, for desktop monitors, portability is not a concern, and many users who prefer 4:3 laptops do like widescreen desktop monitors.

I feel lucky that I can handle a lot higher pixel density than 140 DPI, which is why I recently bought my Sony Pro 13 with a 13.3" 1920x1080 IPS touchscreen. It's easy to view two windows at once, and the laptop is still highly portable. In fact, at only 2.33 lbs, it's one of the lightest 13" laptops ever. Although this laptop does have one annoying feature (the screen can be opened only about 100 degrees!), it's a fantastic laptop for those of us who want to travel extremely light while having a decent amount of pixels on the screen. The Pro 13 and the Panasonic Toughbook CF-Y7 (14.1" 1400x1050, 3.4 lbs if you use the stock HDD, but down to 3.23 lbs if you swap it out for a uSATA SSD like I did) are some of the best options for people like us.

[BillMorrow]

How likely is it that we will see a high-quality business class non-chiclet >=17 inches laptop again?

My guess, not likely..
It's all driven by what the other guy tends to do..
If they all use chicklet keyboards there won't be any competition to switch back but I DID see some esoteric refurbished thinkpad on special with the older good keyboard last week with the non chicklet keyboard..!

As for toughbook vs. thinkpad these are pretty much two different animals..
One for throwing under a truck and KNOWING it will survive while you will HOPE the thinkpad will survive..
IMO no comparison between the two..

[Temetka]

As for toughbook vs. thinkpad these are pretty much two different animals..
One for throwing under a truck and KNOWING it will survive while you will HOPE the thinkpad will survive..
IMO no comparison between the two..

I couldn't have said it better myself, Bill.