HELP! - the right T60 guru can solve this in 5 seconds

[wild_bill]

I have a T60 which has the 4:3 15'' BOE·hydis UXGA screen

regardless of whether I boot up in Windows XP or in Windows 7, the computer boots up fine to the Windows desktop, the display is perfect and beautiful, every part of this T60 is working flawlessly, then suddenly after a minute or two of being on, this happens (see pic below)

I can turn it off and repeat the process above, over and over. - so whatever it is, it becomes fine again when I power up, for another whole minute!

I think the computer is running fine even after this happens, no beeps or anything out of the ordinary, just with the screen is garbled as per the photo below - I am thinking that one of you will recognize this pattern and can instantly tell definitively whether it is display, backlight, inverter, graphics chip needs reballing or whatever.

Not looking for just an educated guess, I am certain that I am not the first one who has had this screen pattern appear on a T-60, and my problem will be immediately obvious to one or several of the experts out there!

http://i.imgur.com/5Dnk7Cq.jpg

Moderator edit: picture too big, no warning!
Please read the Forum rules!

[ajkula66]

You need a new motherboard. VRAM corruption.

[wild_bill]

You need a new motherboard. VRAM corruption.

how does one avoid VRAM corruption? - I am about to throw this unreliable POS in the trash!

I have owned a lot of laptops, and yet the one with the supposed reputation for being bulletproof, has been the biggest piece of junk ever, and I am very delicate and careful with a laptop!

just look at these issues:

● cracked internal frame (yet computer never dropped)
● cracked wrist pad (and replacement part unavailable)
● dust behind screen developed in original LG-Philips 1050 screen
● dust behind screen developed in new BOE-hydis UXGA screen
● constant overheating issues with even the lightest loads
● VRAM corruption - now I need a motherboard

PEOPLE - this is NOT the definition of bulletproof rugged reliability, this is the definition of crap! - a Chinese no-name generic laptop wouldn't have this many issues in only a couple of years of light use!..........ugh!

[PowerPC]

ThinkPads were always ridden with chronic problems.

Peeling paint on the classic models.
A31p overheating.
Elimination of the second Ultrabay.
Ever cheapening keyboards, yes, since IBM times, because laptops must be thinner and keyboards cheaper, a long time IBM tradition.
Horrible problems with solder during transition to lead free solder - a problem that was not limited to IBM, but still increases failure rates
The whole product line was always a money pit for IBM because they replaced things that failed, something that happened very often

All of the above from the IBM era, then Lenovo happened.

[ajkula66]

how does one avoid VRAM corruption?

It's not an user-inflicted-wound and there's nothing that one can do to avoid it. Yours is an interesting one since the screen usually ends up with no colour, just plain black/grayish and white/greenish patterns..

- I am about to throw this unreliable POS in the trash!

I have owned a lot of laptops, and yet the one with the supposed reputation for being bulletproof, has been the biggest piece of junk ever, and I am very delicate and careful with a laptop!

just look at these issues:

● cracked internal frame (yet computer never dropped)
● cracked wrist pad (and replacement part unavailable)
● dust behind screen developed in original LG-Philips 1050 screen
● dust behind screen developed in new BOE-hydis UXGA screen
● constant overheating issues with even the lightest loads
● VRAM corruption - now I need a motherboard

You've got a lemon on your hands since you've now gone through just about every single problem that T60/p generation is known for, albeit rarely at the same time...

PEOPLE - this is NOT the definition of bulletproof rugged reliability, this is the definition of crap! - a Chinese no-name generic laptop wouldn't have this many issues in only a couple of years of light use!..........ugh!

If you want "bulletproof rugged reliability" there's a brand with the proven track record of having the lowest failure rate in the laptop industry. It's called Panasonic. Say "goodbye" to the awesomeness of TrackPoint and conventional ThinkPad keyboard, though.

Don't kid yourself, though: other expensive machines (Alienware, Precision, EliteBook...) are far from being bulletproof either. Take a stroll through NBR forums and you'll see for yourself...

[PowerPC]

If you want "bulletproof rugged reliability" there's a brand with the proven track record of having the lowest failure rate in the laptop industry. It's called Panasonic. Say "goodbye" to the awesomeness of TrackPoint and conventional ThinkPad keyboard, though..

Even with all the problems, the desktop-like keyboard and the TrackPoint are the things that make me stay with the T60. Now I'm shifting into R60 cases, the extra thickness will probably be better for cooling and modding, though the primary reason is the price of T60 15" parts.
Everyone makes compromises, I guess.

[ajkula66]

Even with all the problems, the desktop-like keyboard and the TrackPoint are the things that make me stay with the T60. Now I'm shifting into R60 cases, the extra thickness will probably be better for cooling and modding, though the primary reason is the price of T60 15" parts.
Everyone makes compromises, I guess.

IDK...personally, I always felt that the 15" version of T60 was a step down from T4x quality-wise, and that the story with 14" units was the other way around.

I don't like any of the T6x keyboards. Sure enough, I use them on daily basis but still...prefer the T4x Thai keyboard by a high margin, to which I still prefer an A3x keyboard which was the perfect one for my hands.

Paradise lost...

[wild_bill]

I don't give a hoot about trackpoint, the only pointing device worth using on a laptop is a mouse.

I would happily race anyone in the world on doing various windows tasks that require pointing, scrolling, open and closing windows, new browser tabs etc. - I will use a good old wired Microsoft optical mouse, you can use trackpoint, touchpad, some crazy roller ball or whatever, and I will smoke your hiney!

[Medessec]

Oi. Sir, I think equally of all pointing devices... they all have their advantages. I can use any pointing device if I need to, and I won't complain too much. Unless I had to play my video games on a Trackpoint nub, then there might be a problem... but the point is that I don't need to carry a mouse with me all the time.

As for the main problem- I can understand if all the problems adding up in your T60's lifetime, has given you a bad impression of a T60. But you asked for the fix, and that's what we gave you. Keep in mind though- another advantage of the Thinkpad T60 is the easy disassembly, and the cheapness and availability of parts. It may seem initially daunting, that you have to replace your T60's motherboard... but if you've tinkered with electronics before, and you aren't afraid to take something apart, it can be easier than you think.

Another thing you can do is just buy another T60, or T60 base, and swap the screen from your flaky one to the new T60 system keep the awesome UXGA resolution.

Out of all the T60s I've owned, the VRAM problem has actually never caught me yet. So I'm pretty sure if you give the T60 another chance(if you like it other than the issues you had) you'd probably wind up with a less problematic machine, and it'd do much better, if you do indeed take as good care of your laptop as you say you do...

[Theokretes]

T60s in particular are hard to tame (even though they are probably the pinnacle of ThinkPad features). They are 8 year old laptops; so you can't expect more from hot-running machines. Yeah cheap laptops generally have less issues, but cheap laptops also don't incorporate such super high resolutions with hot running CAD GPUs. A T60 running for 8 years would have been exhibited to a lot of stress.

The only way to repair it is desolder the BGA RAM chips near the GPU. But you'll need a lot of tools to do that. But totally possible.

I got rather irritated after my T60's first systemboard died and left it for three years (and I'm not sure if the replacement board is having issues from XP or not, I'll soon know after win7 is installed). But I love the keyboard, the footprint, and the features. The dock actually has PS/2 on it that's hotswappable! Very unique. Plus you can adjust the DVD speed to spin slower, etc. So I've sort of been preserving with mine, as volatile the series is.

Older thinkpads generally [didn't] have better keyboards. The 701C's keytronic rubber cups are no match for T60 ALPS or NMB switches etc.

[wild_bill]

I have a real NMB keyboard and it's pretty good (supposedly the best on T60), but not that good, T4X series was better - even a garden variety Toshiba doesn't have a bad keyboard.

and to the gentleman who said the T60 and its "easy disassembly", well I have repaired a lot of different laptops in my day, and I would say that the T60 is one of the more difficult laptops I can think of to disassemble (not counting the new tablets with their glued down components which are ridiculous)

[Theokretes]

I have a real NMB keyboard and it's pretty good (supposedly the best on T60), but not that good, T4X series was better - even a garden variety Toshiba doesn't have a bad keyboard.

and to the gentleman who said the T60 and its "easy disassembly", well I have repaired a lot of different laptops in my day, and I would say that the T60 is one of the more difficult laptops I can think of to disassemble (not counting the new tablets with their glued down components which are ridiculous)

Well good news, the freezing was because of XP. My T60p with the hot V5200 is running great with windows 7 x86. I have it in the deluxe dock which is doing a good job of keeping it cool while plopped on my bed. Mark my words, I will be doing something about the thermal pillows sooner or later.

I've taken this T60p apart so many times, I could do a speed disassembly within three minutes down to the mobo and rollcage. Give me 6 minutes to take the whole thing apart. I personally think it's a nice design to take apart, but you have to *know* it first-- so I definitely would argue that there's a learning curve to understanding how to take it apart, but once you know it, it's pretty quick.

Toshibas, especially the high-end ones, are very nice systems (and I agree, decent keyboards: miles ahead HP at least *shudder*).

By the way, which mobo are you running in your T60? I'm wondering if your bad VRAM board was paired with a specific GPU.

[Theokretes]

Actually I take that back, it did do another one of its freezes within the last hour. Although not nearly as bad as when it was running XP. I have a hunch it's either the wireless card or the keyboard. I'll just have to rip it apart again as it's not put back 100% correctly since I was still testing it.
--> although I would have my original T60p's board sometimes freeze randomly, but very scarcely. Nothing in the event logs either.

Checking the temperature reveals 40C with sometimes a peak of 48C-- which is pretty darn cool with thermal pillows.

*Something* agitates the system, although it could just be that... the "operating as normal T60p freezes" (OANTF). That's actually something I've been wondering. Haven't seen T61s do it, that I'm aware of yet.

[dr_st]

IDK...personally, I always felt that the 15" version of T60 was a step down from T4x quality-wise, and that the story with 14" units was the other way around.

Brace yourselves for another T4x-vs-T60 rant.

I can certainly see things from your perspective, and having owned a bit of these units, seen and heard about countless others, I think I agree (or almost).

T4x and T60 are so very similar, that the little quality differences are probably due to very small variances in the design process. It so happened that in 14" units these variances favored the later model, and in the 15" models - the other way around.

I've been lucky so far that my 15" T60 has not suffered any of the usual ailments, such as cracked palmrests / frames (*knocks on wood*), but then again it has been a secondary machine at best from the day it was acquired, and as such used sparingly. It seems that the previous owner did not use it much as well, so it came to me in great shape.

The previous T60 15" I had did have a broken frame, which IBM replaced under warranty for whatever reason.

No such common issues on 15" T4x units that I'm aware of, and my T42 2373-F7G is turning 9 years old this month. It also feels a bit more solid. The T60 15" case has quite a bit of give - above the keyboard, and on the right side of the palmrest.

The 14" T4x units always looked and felt a bit fragile to me. They also seem to be more prone to GPU failures than 15" units (worse cooling due to small space?). On the other hand, the 14" T60 is one of the most boxy and solid Lenovo laptops ever. Although even they seem to have one (small) issue - the front right corner of the palmrest sometimes gets worn out and breaks off (happened twice to me in the warranty period).

Screen-wise, I saw no differences between T4x and T60. I've seen my share of dust specs, dirt, and white pressure marks on screens from all models, without any statistically significant differences.

I don't like any of the T6x keyboards. Sure enough, I use them on daily basis but still...prefer the T4x Thai keyboard by a high margin, to which I still prefer an A3x keyboard which was the perfect one for my hands.

The keyboard is definitely more solid on the T4x. There is better support for the backplate somehow and it doesn't flex. The T60 15" keyboard especially seems to have an unpleasant amount of flex on the left hand side, which is fortunately easily remedied by the "rubber magnet or equivalent" mod which adds support and does marvels. But the T4x is still more solid.

A3x keyboard feels a bit different for sure. Somehow it's softer, but the softness does not feel like flex, more like a springiness in the keys. Also a pleasure to type on.

[PowerPC]

IDK...personally, I always felt that the 15" version of T60 was a step down from T4x quality-wise, and that the story with 14" units was the other way around.

I never had a T4x in my hands. Surely it may be better. My reasons to settle for the 15" 4:3 *60 are these:
* screen, no comments needed here;
* dual (or now, quad) core CPU options with a modded T61 planar;
* yes, the *6* keyboard is better for me, for the reason that the new keys are important for Amiga emulation. I don't like several minor things on the keyboard, I'm working on a way to fix them, but lack of infinite money for parts and long shipping times are making my progresss slow.

A T4* keyboard is mostly the same than in a T6*. The key captions use a bolder font, the mouse buttons are bigger and double shot, Ctrl and Shift are bigger. Oh, and the gray keys look better, as well as the media/Access IBM buttons. At least the gray buttons part was easy to fix; using NMB keyboards, the T4* and T6* keys are interchangeable, as long as you transfer the whole assembly (cap, scissors and the "U' holder; I ruined a T4* Enter keycap trying to change just it). So, here I am using a hybrid T6* keyboard with the top lines, back, forward and Caps Lock keys from a T4* keyboard. If I want to, I can also transfer most of the other keys to also have the bold font. Of course this do not work for the bottom line, and swapping the cursor arrows would make me lose the media symbols.

I don't like any of the T6x keyboards. Sure enough, I use them on daily basis but still...prefer the T4x Thai keyboard by a high margin, to which I still prefer an A3x keyboard which was the perfect one for my hands.

Paradise lost...

From what I remember here, the Thai keyboard, and several European ones, have an ISO Enter, small left Shift and several special keys have symbols without the text caption for their functions (Enter and other ones). Aside from the specific T4* differences, you could, using NMB keyboards, get an European keyboard and installing keycaps from an international English keyboard to fix the wrong labeled keys. The int-en keyboard is needed because otherwise the |\ key caption would look slightly different from the other ones (the distance between the captions in keys with more than one label, like "!1" is different). It would be a way to have an American layout with an ISO Enter. I do know those int-en keyboards are rare. If you don't like the ISO Enter, Russian and Israeli keyboards have standard, long left Shift keys without the text caption.
If you would like to have a green font for your Alt and SysRq keys, and/or an ISO Enter key with text caption, you can source these from a T6* Japanese keyboard (remember to always get NMB keyboard for these mods). However:
* using the SysRq key from a T6* Japanese keyboard would not allow you to use gray keys from a T4* keyboard, unless you got a T4* Japanese keyboard;
* JP keyboards have only one square Alt, so, to get two green Alt keys, you need two JP keyboards.
* it's a bit difficult to source JP NMB keyboards at a reasonable price here in the West. To get two for keys that eventually will have the caption worn down requiring replacement is an expensive exercise.

All of this is making me look for a way to relabel the keys I have. I'm thinking of some methods to do this over sanded keys.

I should compile this info that I got at ThinkWiki. I spent some pretty penny to get these keyboards for testing, more than I paid for my base T60 unit.

[dr_st]

I never had a T4x in my hands. Surely it may be better. My reasons to settle for the 15" 4:3 *60 are these:
* screen, no comments needed here;
* dual (or now, quad) core CPU options with a modded T61 planar;
* yes, the *6* keyboard is better for me, for the reason that the new keys are important for Amiga emulation.

You have absolutely nothing to worry about. As a long time owner of 15" T42 and T60, I can tell you that these quality differences, even if you acknowledge them, are very very minor.

I don't like several minor things on the keyboard, I'm working on a way to fix them

Interesting. What are the things you don't like?

A T4* keyboard is mostly the same than in a T6*. The key captions use a bolder font, the mouse buttons are bigger and double shot, Ctrl and Shift are bigger.

I presume you meant Ctrl and Alt.

Oh, and the gray keys look better, as well as the media/Access IBM buttons.

I always found it interesting how much people dislike the media buttons on a T6x keyboard compared to a T4x one. They do look a bit less fancy, but I never understood why they were so disliked.

From what I remember here, the Thai keyboard, and several European ones, have an ISO Enter, small left Shift and several special keys have symbols without the text caption for their functions (Enter and other ones).

By "Thai" he just means NMB. The manufacturer is orthogonal to the layout. All layouts are available from all manufacturers.

[wild_bill]

my primary point was that my T60 cost over $2500 new and is quite heavy, there are $500 full size laptops that are far more reliable these days at half the weight!

I wanted to be the biggest proponent of IBM and Lenovo and the Thinkpad line, I had hoped it was going to be the "Lexus" of notebook computers, but it turns out that it is closer to the "Yugo"

[exTPfan]

The 15inch T60 weighs about 2.5kg (without the DVD) and has a 9 inch tall screen. There are NO laptops today with a 9 inch tall screen, and certainly not weighing 1.25kg, which is why I continue to use T60 s and T42 s for my serious work.

[ajkula66]

my primary point was that my T60 cost over $2500 new and is quite heavy, there are $500 full size laptops that are far more reliable these days at half the weight!

I seriously doubt that...any $500 full-size laptop is likely to be a piece of junk.

I wanted to be the biggest proponent of IBM and Lenovo and the Thinkpad line, I had hoped it was going to be the "Lexus" of notebook computers, but it turns out that it is closer to the "Yugo"

Well, I'm certain that even Lexus rolls out a lemon once in a while...

Anyways...you can always move to one of those $500 laptops, or spend serious money on a proper machine with a warranty backup to match.

Your money, your call.

[Medessec]

my primary point was that my T60 cost over $2500 new and is quite heavy, there are $500 full size laptops that are far more reliable these days at half the weight!

The T60 was a top performer of it's time... aside from the issues you had, you definitely should have gotten a top notch computing experience for the time. And if you wanted something that performed better for it's size and weight, you probably should have gotten the 14" T60... but we can't change that now.

I seriously doubt that...any $500 full-size laptop is likely to be a piece of junk.

This is right in my experience too. If you were that adamant that your T60 and any other Thinkpad can't serve you as well as a new laptop in this price bracket can... a lot of us on here really don't share your experience with Thinkpads.

What I'd recommend for you is to get a different T60 and swap screens... or get a T500/W500 if you're fine moving to widescreen. Or, if you just aren't comfortable getting another Thinkpad, you can get an HP Elitebook, Dell Latitude, in which case you may want to turn to someone else on here for recommendations.

[Theokretes]

Regarding the cracked palm wrests... I've seen countless T4x series with cracks right near the buttons of the touchpad, every single time.
As for my T60p, it doesn't have a single crack in the plastic anywhere, and was used quite heavily. I did notice that it's a bit different from later T60 chassis (which didn't have white printing for the legends, but instead used an inverted emboss of the plastic itself).

So it's wholly possible the mixture of ABS & PVC is different (the ones more prone to cracking would have higher PVC). I wish I kept that newer cracked T60 chassis I had to compare.

Also I figured out what the problem is-- the laptop will only freeze while I'm typing or pressing on it, so somehow that is doing something to the system board. Otherwise, using it with external devices and letting it go for a bit there are no issues. So that's definitely a reassembly issue which will be resolved later when I have time.

The crispest trackpoint buttons I've ever used have always been the T6x series. T4x feels a bit gritty and softer.

[wild_bill]

I seriously doubt that...any $500 full-size laptop is likely to be a piece of junk.

well I have owned at least 10 full size laptops in my life, and this T60 has been, sad to say, the biggest piece of junk of them all, refer to my earlier post to have a look at all the problems I have had! (and I am not some rough-house silly teenager, I am 52 years old and have managed to never drop a laptop, I think I am pretty easy on them, in fact.)

Or, if you just aren't comfortable getting another Thinkpad, you can get an HP Elitebook, Dell Latitude, in which case you may want to turn to someone else on here for recommendations.

I would love anyone's recommendation on the most reliable non-Thinkpad, non-Apple laptop that has 900-1080 vertical pixels and a backlit keyboard

[ajkula66]

well I have owned at least 10 full size laptops in my life, and this T60 has been, sad to say, the biggest piece of junk of them all, refer to my earlier post to have a look at all the problems I have had! (and I am not some rough-house silly teenager, I am 52 years old and have managed to never drop a laptop, I think I am pretty easy on them, in fact.)

As previously stated, you've been blessed with a lemon. Stuff happens.

I've owned more T60/p units than I'd dare count and have never encountered all of those issues on a single laptop.

I would love anyone's recommendation on the most reliable non-Thinkpad, non-Apple laptop that has 900-1080 vertical pixels and a backlit keyboard

Panasonic CF-52. Available in 15.4" 1920x1200 with a backlit keyboard.

[exTPfan]

I've been heavily using T42 s and T60 s for ten years, and the only problems I've had are: occasional keyboard problems; a broken hinge on a T42; a backlight on a T42 dimmed and expired after 3 years heavy use (its normal lifetime). They were among the most reliable computers of their time.

[wild_bill]

even when this T60 was running without issues, and with the fan clean and heatsinks clean, any stressful software would cause it to overheat, such as processing video files for example (when you are converting formats to get one video format into another, which is CPU and GPU intensive)

when you look at their heatpipe arrangement, you can see what a cheap design this is - not cool in a $3000 machine. - any of you that have had your computer apart know what I am referring to. The entire design is flawed, it doesn't get positive force on the GPU for example for efficient cooling (not to mention that silly white foam stuff rather that serious thermal compound such as Arctic Silver etc.)

what is the motherboard part number? (my T60 has UXGA (shipped with SXGA), but it is not a T60p, it is 4:3 aspect 15")

Lenovo seems to have killed off that nice parts lookup database they once had, this new thing they have stops working at OS selection, so I have no way to find the part number I need to get this boat anchor fixed and sold and out of here! - I am really tired of looking at it.

and as far as being a lemon, manufactured items suffer from pattern failure, so there are lemon models rather than lemon individual machines, and the proof of this is that everyone is familiar with every problem I have had! - so if you haven't had some of the issues I have had on your machine, get ready, they are coming!

PS - I don't recall many issues with the IBM labeled T4x series

[PowerPC]

A T4* keyboard is mostly the same than in a T6*. The key captions use a bolder font, the mouse buttons are bigger and double shot, Ctrl and Shift are bigger.

I presume you meant Ctrl and Alt.

Yes, Ctrl and Alt. My bad.

Oh, and the gray keys look better, as well as the media/Access IBM buttons.

I always found it interesting how much people dislike the media buttons on a T6x keyboard compared to a T4x one. They do look a bit less fancy, but I never understood why they were so disliked.

They look cheaper, and the "IBM" was removed from the key. I must tell, though, that from a very small test time I'd say the T6x media and ThinkVantage buttons are easier to press.

I don't like several minor things on the keyboard, I'm working on a way to fix them

Interesting. What are the things you don't like?

The not conventional position of the Esc key, Fn at the left side of control. I'm thinking of rebuilding the keyboard using parts of keyboards from other models, and relabeling some keys. The Brazilian keyboard has its own problems at the bottom right section, which would also require modification.

Ignore the ThinkVantage/media block in this image, and this is what I would like to build:
http://i.imgur.com/gRmQEUD.png

[dr_st]

and as far as being a lemon, manufactured items suffer from pattern failure, so there are lemon models rather than lemon individual machines, and the proof of this is that everyone is familiar with every problem I have had! - so if you haven't had some of the issues I have had on your machine, get ready, they are coming!

The truth is somewhere in between. There are characteristic failures for every series, but it is very uncommon to have so many of them in a single machine. That's the definition of a lemon unit.

I own a 15" T60 which has had none of the issues you mentioned, but I did own a T42 which developed dust behind the panel. Oops!

PS - I don't recall many issues with the IBM labeled T4x series

Then you either never used them or need to have your memory refreshed.

The not conventional position of the Esc key, Fn at the left side of control. I'm thinking of rebuilding the keyboard using parts of keyboards from other models, and relabeling some keys.

Ignore the ThinkVantage/media block in this image, and this is what I would like to build:
http://i.imgur.com/gRmQEUD.png

Looks nice. I can totally identify with the things you mentioned. The last pre-island Lenovo keyboard (T400s and later) tried to remedy the Esc position problem. And Fn/Ctrl reversal was added as a BIOS option around the same time.

Myself, somehow all the laptops I owned had keyboard with Fn to the left of Ctrl, so I got used to it, and it doesn't bother me. I don't get confused with desktop keyboard either, as somehow my muscle memory treats laptop and desktop keyboard separately.