Windows 8.1 and me..?

[BillMorrow]

i'm not at all sure i like or even approve of the direction the windows/microsoft cabal is taking with windows 8..

they, M$ and win8, seem to want more personal info and permission from the hapless user to use said personal information and less than personal information to sell you stuff..

they call it some sort of mild name like "so we can deliver targeted ads to you" or some such pablum like baffelgab..

as for privacy and email and so forth, just forget it, anything you say to anyone or anything anyone says to you belongs to "them".. under the guise that if you send an email to anyone you have delivered the content to them and you know or should know someone else can, may or will read that and then use that info to blast you with advertising..

it gets worse from here but this stupid little chicklet keyboard does not like my typing (or mistyping) style so i'll not go further on the privacy (or lack thereof) issue..

d@mn, 1984 we are not only here but escape is futile, resistance is futile, the borg have arrived and no one seems to really care all that much..

now on to win8 in all its trivial glory of sell sell sell sell (shades of jim cramer!)..

the GUI is confusing and on this thinkpad tablet 2 it is also a bit frustrating..
lots of graphics, little blocks here and there and there too..
slide from side to side to find what you want..
ok, good, there is something.. but what..?
slide something in from the right edge, top edge, bottom edge..? ok, right now, just the right edge..

lots of differences in the GUI and, maybe, some of the old familiar windoze is hiding under all this graphic stuff..

so, all in all, win8 is only ok and not something i would seek to add to all the computers in this house..
with at least a dozen, upgrading would be close to insanly expensive even if i don't know how much it costs..
(tech net is gone, RIP)

so, for now, win7 will do nicely except for the thinkpad tablet 2..
maybe i come back later, read this and edit it a bit.. later..!

[Medessec]

Pff. A few of my friends say that Windows 8 is okay once you get used to it...

I had the same attitude with Windows 7. After a few weeks of "sticking it out", I fell in love with Windows 7. I didn't change that attitude with trying Windows 8, initially. But after the preview, three weeks, I was done. The interface is made for succulent appearances and catering to the grandma in her rocker, playing bejeweled and reading her ebooks. Not that there's anything wrong with that... but why did they have to make Windows 8 ONLY a tablet interface, for ALL types of computers across the entire spectrum of computing devices(tablets, laptops, all-in-ones, desktop computers) There is absolutely no reason for it. I'm pretty certain it's because they want people to "get with the times", but it's really just falling for the same spell.

Metro is good, but it belongs on a tablet, not a laptop or a desktop computer. I don't care how they make Windows 8 "better", with 8.1, or whatever. As long as they're forcing Metro, and excluding the old, full productivity taskbar and start menu in favor of some stupid tablet nonsense, I'm sticking with 7.

With the masses wanting something lazily simple, and absolutely dirt cheap affordable, and nothing else... all we have is to be at the mercy of that, and compromise in the best way we can. Cope, because everyone else apparently wants something different.

But back to the topic, I do agree. I complain every time my friend who has a Windows 8 machine asks me to help him. But hey, at least we have Windows 7. It not only works, it works brilliantly, and looks great, and MS is still taking care of it. We've got a long time before we can sit here and lose all hope.

[RealBlackStuff]

2 Weeks ago somebody came to me with a nearly new Toshiba laptop with Windows 8.1 that had software problems.
Until then I had never even seen W8/W8.1.
I booted it, and in spite of all my years of computer experience, I could NOT find my way in that POS Windows 8.1.
So I apologized to the guy and told him I could not help him, other than suggesting Windows 7 installation.
I happened to have an almost identical Toshiba Satellite available, with W7 installed.
I showed it to this guy, he was really interested, and 30 minutes after he came in with ONE laptop under his arm,
he bought mine and walked out with TWO laptops under his arm!
He told me he'd keep the W7 machine for himself, and give the W8 machine to one of his grandchildren, and tell them to solve its problems!
I think I'd rather go with Linux than bend to those stupid brainfarts of Micro$haft!

[pianowizard]

According to CNET, the recently released Windows 8.1 Update (which means it's an update to Windows 8.1) "might change your mind about Windows 8": http://www.cnet.com/news/windows-8-1-up ... windows-8/

I installed this on all three of my Windows 8 computers although I haven't explored it enough to contrast it with the original Windows 8.1.

Metro is good, but it belongs on a tablet, not a laptop or a desktop computer. I don't care how they make Windows 8 "better", with 8.1, or whatever. As long as they're forcing Metro, and excluding the old, full productivity taskbar and start menu in favor of some stupid tablet nonsense, I'm sticking with 7.

For me, it's much faster to find something on the Metro Start Menu than on the Classic Start Menu, because the former's icons are much bigger. And since I have all the icons that I access frequently (roughly 15 of them) all the way to the left of the Metro Start Menu, all of them are laid out in one view, making them even easier to find. For items that I use less frequently, I simply type their first few letters, e.g. "CAL" for Calculator. I do it this way even for Windows 7 and earlier versions, because wading through the different layers and folders within the Classic Start Menu is just too slow and requires too much clicking.

In conclusion, on the whole, the Metro Start Menu has increased my efficiency. I think it's a brilliant innovation, although I think Microsoft should give people the option of reverting back to the Classical Start Menu because not everyone is adaptive.

With the masses wanting something lazily simple

If Windows 8 was "lazily simple", then how come you haven't figured out how to use it? What makes you believe you are the smart one and Windows 8 is the stupid one?

2 Weeks ago somebody came to me with a nearly new Toshiba laptop with Windows 8.1 that had software problems. Until then I had never even seen W8/W8.1.

And yet you have been bashing Windows 8 for much longer than 2 weeks.

[RealBlackStuff]

And as it turned out: rightly so!
I was silly enough to buy a legal W8 for $44.- when it first came out, but I still can't bring myself to install it, based on all the negative publicity.
I only use a laptop (with W7) for traveling, the rest of the time I'm on my desktop with W7 (it had XP until Xmas 2013).

[sir_synthsalot]

I don't think 8 is the way it is because "the masses want something lazily simple". People generally don't like change. Microsoft tried to break into a new market and make their OS tablet-friendly, but at the same time they alienated traditional PC users. The disappointing sales figures reflect that.

"8 was a knee-jerk reaction to the iPad" sounds about right. I don't understand why they didn't even give you a choice like in previous Windows versions. For example in XP you could use the new XP start menu, or you could go switch back to the classic start menu. I think everyone, love or hate 8, can agree with that.

I'm sure you can configure 8 to work like 7 or XP and 8.1 addresses some of the problems with 8 but in the end is it worth upgrading a 7 machine to 8? I am waiting for Windows 9.

[pianowizard]

The disappointing sales figures reflect that.

Disappointing? Really? See this Forbes article, "Don't believe the Windows 8 'failure' hype": http://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley ... lure-hype/

in the end is it worth upgrading a 7 machine to 8?

IMO, it's totally worth upgrading from XP or Vista to 8. Whether it's worth going from 7 to 8 depends on how much the upgrade would cost, because that's just a one-generational upgrade, comparable to going from 2000 to XP, or XP to Vista, or Vista to 7. I have 3 computers running Windows 8. One of these was already loaded with 8 when I bought it. The other two were upgraded from XP and Vista, and each of these Windows 8 licenses cost me only $15.89 including tax, because I bought them during Microsoft's initial promotional period. In my view, spending so little money to upgrade two or three generations of Windows is a no-brainer.

[ArtShapiro]

I utterly despised Windows 8 - those obnoxious moving/flashing Metro tiles were enough to give one epilepsy.

8.1 turned out IMHO to be a really nice improvement. One rarely had to look at Metro, and the speed, even on the T60p I put it on as a dual-boot with 7, turned out to be surprising. While it has some quirks that aren't that appealing, they're liveable and I run the 8.1 partition far more than the 7 on that Thinkpad.

I recently put 8.1 on my primary desktop machine, and to have a machine boot up in six to seven seconds is rather jaw-dropping. I didn't even tell my technophobe wife that I'd made the change and waited for the rolling pin to hit the skull, as they say. Instead, her only remark was a phone call to my office, to the effect of "something seems different...how do I log off?" (That had taken my a half hour to figure out on the original Windows 8.) I'd actually put an icon on her desktop for log off and ditto for shutdown so I merely had to mention that fact.

8.1 seems OK to this victim.

Art

[Tasurinchi]

Let me add my 2 cents...

I personally don't like the metro interface that much. I only had Win8 in my AIO that was rarely used, so normally in old Win8 once it booted I went directly to the old desktop. Luckily Win8.1 does it directly now.

I still don't like Metro, but I'm happy with Win8 and more with Win8.1.

-It's very stable
-Got two cheap licenses shortly ago so first I started using Win8.1 in an old X200s of mine and it feels faster than win7 (don't have benchmarks though)
-I then installed in my Nvidia T61, that thing flies as well and the hardware worked ootb!
-The installation is really fast! (and with 8.1 there are not many updates -yet-, so a clean installation is much faster than 7)

So I'm starting recommending Win8 for friends. And as said, now with 8.1 you can skip Metro directly so you feel like in the good ol times

[Medessec]

For me, it's much faster to find something on the Metro Start Menu than on the Classic Start Menu, because the former's icons are much bigger.

Metro's slower for me, because it's a "full-screen" start menu. Whereas you press the Start Orb on 7 and the Start Menu and everything on it pops up just like that, Metro has to load full-screen and play it's swooshy animation... it may seem like a negligible factor to you, but to me... I like everything just a couple of clicks or keystrokes away. Believe it or not, Windows 8 doubles the amount of time it takes for me to get to what I want, and it makes it feel uncomfortable and peevish.

In conclusion, on the whole, the Metro Start Menu has increased my efficiency.

If it works for you, don't let my 72 year old grumpy rambling get to you. I really don't mind if someone else enjoys it. I just mind if they bring their laptop to me and expect me to help them.

I think it's a brilliant innovation...

Don't get me wrong, I think the same thing! I own a Zune HD, which was the device that gave birth to the Metro interface. I loved it to the core, and Metro on a mobile device and a tablet is really very nice. But it just doesn't make any sense to me when we have to do the corner swiping and all that, with a mouse on a large desktop screen.

If Windows 8 was "lazily simple", then how come you haven't figured out how to use it?

I have figured out how to use it. My issue is that it's slower when it's used proficiently, versus when Windows 7 is used proficiently, and it alienates the users who favored the classic interface, as sir_synthsalot said. And that's what makes Windows 8 "the stupid one", because they decided to remove everything that would make the old power user comfortable, and make things deliberately harder for people like me.

If for what you use it for, it's just fine, and it's fast for you, then you don't have to agree with me. Because all these opinions are based on my needs... which are vastly different from yours, I can probably guarantee you that. I mean... I own a 2" thick 17" laptop with three hard drive bays and a desktop processor. I'm pretty sure no one can call me a normal computing device consumer.


aside from all this... anybody own a Surface Pro tablet? I've wanted one of those, just to see what they're like.

[pianowizard]

Metro has to load full-screen and play it's swooshy animation...

The animated icons can be removed easily. Do you have a very slow computer? On mine, the animation gets loaded instantly.

I like everything just a couple of clicks or keystrokes away.

I want everything just *one* click away, and I want everything to have a huge giant icon that I can find within half a second. By only retaining the icons that I use often on the Metro Start Menu, I achieve both.

Believe it or not, Windows 8 doubles the amount of time it takes for me to get to what I want, and it makes it feel uncomfortable and peevish.

I do find this hard to believe.

If it works for you, don't let my 72 year old grumpy rambling get to you. I really don't mind if someone else enjoys it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind other people having different tastes than mine. But when someone doesn't like something, and then says "it's stupid" or "it's too simple" or "it's good enough only for simpletons", I am usually curious about their justifications. BTW, thanks for revealing your age, which I believe explains something. I am about half your age, in case you were wondering.

Don't get me wrong, I think the same thing! I own a Zune HD, which was the device that gave birth to the Metro interface. I loved it to the core, and Metro on a mobile device and a tablet is really very nice. But it just doesn't make any sense to me when we have to do the corner swiping and all that, with a mouse on a large desktop screen.

I think Metro is great for conventional computers, including non-touchscreen ones. I too dislike swiping corners, but by having a "Control Panel" icon on the desktop, and by being familiar with common keyboard shortcuts, I almost never need to swipe corners. The last time I had to do this was probably half a year ago.

I have figured out how to use it. My issue is that it's slower when it's used proficiently

Well, "proficiently" is relative.

I own a 2" thick 17" laptop with three hard drive bays and a desktop processor. I'm pretty sure no one can call me a normal computing device consumer.

My primary computer is a Core i7-3770 desktop with three 3TB hard drives and seven high-res monitors totaling over 18 megapixels, and I am already contemplating getting Seagate's new 6TB hard drive. I doubt very much that Windows 8 works for me because I only have basic computational needs.

[BillMorrow]

well, I see I kicked over the hornet nest..
updated the thinkpad tablet 2 to win 8.1 yesterday and it is different but not, so far, different enough..

all this was so I could use a program called the brain which really is neat BUT:
the tablet 2 I got does not support the digital pen, so its very difficult to be precise in thebrain using a finger..
the brain software package is difficult to use on more than one computer.. just are not allowed to open a brain file on any but the original computer that it was made with..
(is that clear??)

also I got a runaround at Lenovo, they really don't want this thinkpad tablet 2 back and I paid $250 for it at the outlet and aside from win 8 and the brain limitation the tablet 2 is quite nice.. and $250~ is a great price for the tablet 2..
i'll open another thread about my experience at Lenovo later..

what I REALLY do not like about win 8 is the intrusive nature of registering win 8 and all they want (see above), the confusing GUI, the inability to modify the GUI so I can find what I want easily and I guess a few other hidden little "got'cha's" I will discover..
AND, not the least of it the constant feeding of content to all those little boxes in the GUI.. this is sure like 1984 being fed propaganda.. mind numbing trivia like what some empty headed "celebrity" is doing or has just done..
eyeballs.. its now all about your eyeballs and how to seize your attention..

so, all in all for me i'll look at Linux or OS/X of some version if I can get it on non-apple hardware or something to soon replace win8..

[Saucey]

I... have a story as well to tell with my first interaction with Windows 8.

A cousin of mine had went and go buy a laptop and asked if I could "set it up".
Mind you this cousin is one of those, "I don't have a printer, can I use yours?" "Ok now can you do this, I want all this done, it should be easy"
Basic image editing for free...

Anyways, I go there and she never even turned the thing on, still in the box!
I often wonder why people even buy these things if they are so afraid to use them...

So I'm setting it up, I can't believe that I need an email address to make an account for this thing.
Rediculous! Anyways, the machine is OK, chugging alone, at least it has an WXGA+ or better.
But using the GUI was just hell. I installed some programs on that machine, and I found it dumb that the metro menu dissapears into the normal taskbar since Vista.
So I'm trying out the CTRL and Tab to switch between stuff, I have the idea backing in my head that I will get a call to "figure it out" as well.
She asked me if she could make a guest account for her daughter and do that firewall stuff.
This is something I find annoying, I mean, I've went to rotten.com when I was a kid when I figured it out.
Im sure this kid will do the same, IF this child like One Direction (teenster pop group), I can forsee her going to a One Direction chat room and talking to a baddie...

While doing the new user account, its telling me that I needed to another email address to sign in.
I want to make a kid's account, why would they need email?! I gave up, frustrated that I can't do simple tasks I just told my cousin its not meant for me and for her to figure it out on her own.
I told her flat out, I don't know how her computer works, that its too new for me and that 'old school' users like me can't use it.
I would of cared more, but I mean, she left a toughbook on the floor and her husband stepped on it (thus breaking it) so I know that machine may suffer the same fate.

It takes some time getting used to yeah, maybe I would like Metro and all that jazz.
But for a laptop that isn't a touch interface, I really wished metro wasn't forced.
M$ is just joining Samsung in copying Apple's copying techniques.
When I have a touch tablet laptop, I'll give Windows 8.1 a try, heard that they 'fixed' everything. Like Windows 7 to Vista.
But as far as original Windows 8, its just like running a Vista PC that has only 512MB of RAM.
The worst part is that Win8 is advertised as this amazing machine that it has apps, people are going to expect to play BandCamp or something from OSX or Android now...

The ads are annoying as well, jesus... I have facebook, instagram, all that crap that takes my data I willingly give them.
But do I have ads on my desktop pc or on my homescreen of my phone? No... Why should it be on the OS?
To me and my sister, it screams virus and spyware when we see it.

Well Bill, I hope you can weed out all the problems, best of luck,

[Medessec]

BTW, thanks for revealing your age, which I believe explains something. I am about half your age, in case you were wondering.

Oh... erh... quite awkward. I was just being humorous in saying "72 year old grumpy rambling", I'm actually 20 to be brutally honest. Sorry about that misunderstanding.

I use the terms stupid and simple because it's my brand of humor... I know, it's insulting and provoking, but it's how I feel, with me being the computer guy in my pool of people and being asked to constantly help them with their issues. I need to remember that people can interpret text very differently, it's how things go bad on a forum, my bad.

Back to the argument though: It seems to me that you've figured out, for the most part, how to use Windows 8 in your suitor. I suppose the best way to let you know why Windows 8 doesn't work for me is to explain how I use everything: The parts I use the most, is the icons on my Desktop, which has all my programs within instant access. I use the Start Menu for the search bar and "My Computer", and I have all the different User folder turned on, "Music", "Videos", "Documents", and "Downloads", I essentially have the C:/Users/Medessec on my Start Menu, along with my most used Programs, "My Computer", and Control Panel. And when I change my mind, all I have to do is click away from the Start Menu or even click on that other application.

I just mostly hate how Metro's Start Menu is fullscreen, and in contrast to your opinion being that the icons are big and helpful, to find what you need instantly, I find it to be a waste of screen estate. Despite my 1920x1200 screen res, all my icons are still 32x32(I have a LOT of them on my desktop) and I like how Start Menu uses just worded buttons for Documents, Videos, Downloads, and not a big 128x128 button with a folder icon, and "Downloads" in small text.

I do a lot of media-based projects... 3D design, video editing, audio manipulation, image/photo editing, and I constantly have files and applications on my desktop that float around constantly, like a big cluttery room. But like a big cluttery room, although you might not know where everything is, I know where everything is. And I can find it in the matter of a heartbeat. Windows 8 doesn't provide the same sort of environment to support this.

And it's like that diagnosing Windows 7 computers too. It's easy for me to find everything, because the interface provides multiple, quick ways to navigate the folder. In Windows 8, the user has to set that up, otherwise it's just "File Explorer" in the Start Screen or pinned in the taskbar. And because people almost never do (because they're computing simpletons) I always have to deal with that when I diagnose their computer, or have to navigate folders to find game save files, etc.

I've come across very few power users who use Windows 8, and have made it work. You can be one of them, another is a friend of mine who attends UC Merced, majoring in programming. But he's always been really tolerate of Linux and other OSes, even Mac, where I've always been a hard-line conservative Windows fan.

well, I see I kicked over the hornet nest..

Windows 8 is always going to be an issue for people who really use computers... some don't care too much about it, some find it quite a hot-button issue. I always like seeing what others think of it though.

also I got a runaround at Lenovo, they really don't want this thinkpad tablet 2 back and I paid $250 for it at the outlet and aside from win 8 and the brain limitation the tablet 2 is quite nice.. and $250~ is a great price for the tablet 2..
i'll open another thread about my experience at Lenovo later..

I've been hearing a lot of similar experiences with not just Lenovo... but other companies. I think it's really important people be given the opportunity to return their product with no trouble, but it's not the case anymore... and it really ticks me off.

what I REALLY do not like about win 8 is the intrusive nature of registering win 8 and all they want (see above), the confusing GUI, the inability to modify the GUI so I can find what I want easily and I guess a few other hidden little "got'cha's" I will discover..
AND, not the least of it the constant feeding of content to all those little boxes in the GUI.. this is sure like 1984 being fed propaganda.. mind numbing trivia like what some empty headed "celebrity" is doing or has just done..
eyeballs.. its now all about your eyeballs and how to seize your attention..

Well, I wouldn't say that... when I used Metro on the Zune HD, I found it to be quite artsy and functional. I just don't like using it with a mouse, because for me... a mouse is for pointing and clicking. Metro involves(and is made for) clicking and dragging... and if you use a mouse, you have to go pointing>clicking>dragging. Which adds an unnecessary step. As for it looking like propaganda and looking succulent with too much eye candy... I wouldn't say that Metro is anywhere near as bad as iOS, especially iOS 7. But Metro is quite utilitarian for a Tablet interface, and it's also customizable, you can change the colors on it. It just doesn't belong on a big desktop screen.


I just read your story Saucey, and I totally get your pain... it's quite similar to some of the experiences my friends have had setting up Windows 8 for their grandparents or parents.

I want to make a kid's account, why would they need email?!

Yeah... I really hate how they're trying to link up Live and Hotmail, and all their online services.

But do I have ads on my desktop pc or on my homescreen of my phone? No... Why should it be on the OS?

These adds are in some of the Metro apps, right? I also do really hate how ads are becoming a new exposure media and money-maker for the web. All my laptops have Chrome, and the AdBlock extension is always installed. I have it disabled for the right sites of course... this site being one, Thinkwiki, my school sites, and online classes. But I've lost that trust in ads... and you're right to feel that way- Ads are a source of malware and trojans, big time. Scams and bogus forms for your email and bank information, it's a fraudulence and dishonesty that plagues us.

[pianowizard]

updated the thinkpad tablet 2 to win 8.1 yesterday and it is different but not, so far, different enough..

Did you update to Windows 8.1? Or did you update to the “Windows 8.1 Update”? They are two different updates. To avoid confusion, Microsoft really should have called the latter “Windows 8.2”.

what I REALLY do not like about win 8 is the intrusive nature of registering win 8

I think you meant signing in to your Microsoft account. You can easily bypass that and just use a local account. I have installed Windows 8 about five times so far. The first four times I thought the Microsoft account was necessary, but the fifth time I realized it wasn’t. You can Google up how to bypass this step.

I can't believe that I need an email address to make an account for this thing….While doing the new user account, its telling me that I needed to another email address to sign in. I want to make a kid's account, why would they need email?!

Again, you don’t. But indeed, Microsoft should have made it more obvious that you can bypass this.

But for a laptop that isn't a touch interface, I really wished metro wasn't forced.

Like I said earlier, as much as I like Metro, I agree that it shouldn’t be forced on everyone. I think I know what Microsoft is trying to do: they think once people have gotten used to it on their computers, these people will be more likely to also buy Windows smartphones and Windows tablets. Many Mac users get iPhones and iPads for that same reason.

Oh... erh... quite awkward. I was just being humorous in saying "72 year old grumpy rambling", I'm actually 20 to be brutally honest.

You know, I’ve always thought that you write like a 20-something, perhaps 30-ish at most. But then one thing you wrote recently took me by surprise: you mentioned that you didn’t touch-type. I remember thinking “wow, he’s either one of those extremely rare kids who don’t touch-type, or he’s actually a much older person”. So, when you said you were 72 years old, I immediately thought it confirmed the latter possibility.

I suppose the best way to let you know why Windows 8 doesn't work for me is to explain how I use everything: The parts I use the most, is the icons on my Desktop, which has all my programs within instant access.

Actually, this explanation has made it even harder to understand why Windows 8 doesn’t work for you, since you can still put as many icons as you want on the desktop area.

I just mostly hate how Metro's Start Menu is fullscreen, and in contrast to your opinion being that the icons are big and helpful, to find what you need instantly, I find it to be a waste of screen estate. Despite my 1920x1200 screen res, all my icons are still 32x32(I have a LOT of them on my desktop) and I like how Start Menu uses just worded buttons for Documents, Videos, Downloads

I failed to mention that Windows 8’s huge Start icons have one additional advantage besides being easy to find: they are so big that I never accidentally click an adjacent icon. I like to work fast, and so I often click the mouse in a hurry. When the Classic Start Menu has such small icons and links, once in a while I would click incorrectly.

I know where everything is. And I can find it in the matter of a heartbeat. Windows 8 doesn't provide the same sort of environment to support this…And it's like that diagnosing Windows 7 computers too. It's easy for me to find everything, because the interface provides multiple, quick ways to navigate the folder…

You seem to value speed as much as I do, and yet you don’t touch-type? I don’t think one can ever be truly efficient if one needs to look at the keyboard. The efficiency difference between touch-typing versus looking at the keyboard is far, far greater than the efficiency difference between two versions of operating systems. It takes just several weeks to learn to touch-type. Do it this summer.

[Medessec]

You seem to value speed as much as I do, and yet you don’t touch-type? I don’t think one can ever be truly efficient if one needs to look at the keyboard. The efficiency difference between touch-typing versus looking at the keyboard is far, far greater than the efficiency difference between two versions of operating systems. It takes just several weeks to learn to touch-type. Do it this summer.

I can try, but my British friend tried to teach me and it just didn't work. Elementary schools here are supposed to run touch-typing classes, but mine didn't... I'm quite disappointed in that.

I do type quite quickly for not using Home Row though... a lot of people get quite an alarmed reaction from how they see me type. I can get about 40-45 WPM if I'm typing up a document, as long as I'm not looking at the screen a lot, because the way I type, I do have to occasionally look at the keys... I don't know why. For key tracking I guess. But don't worry... I don't sit and stare intently at the keyboard, gently pressing each individual key with my index finger. I'm not wasting hours of my time at these posts...!

[Saucey]

Oh so there is two Windows 8.1 updates?
Interesting.

Hmmmmm... I shall revisit it then.
I'll find a way to make aguest account errr, not email needed account.
Thanks pianowizard!

[BillMorrow]

will try to remember all the preceding remarks..

TWO win8.1 updates..?!!
the tablet did what it did when it did what it wanted to do with no interaction frtom myself..
(this is MUCH different from front panel switches and 128 bytes of memory on my IMSAI 8080 in about 1975 more or less, pre-history being what it is)

i'll surf the GUI later, after io read some more of a kindle book on iPad 1 (i'm typing on iPad 2 right now, an OS that does NOT make me get or give an email when win8 demanding i update an app before trying it out..

i did not know you could sidestep the intrusive set up process and wind up with an OS..

pianowizard, i'm not likely to BUY a win8 so i won't be signing up for a long while, i think..
thanks for that hint, though..

its late here, now, so end-of-day procedures are due to start..

[Cigarguy]

Win 8 - tried for about a month, hated it and still hate it.

Win 8.1 - I liked better. Don't hate it anymore and I'm willing to run with it on a few machines. So far it's OK but NO Metro for me. Even on my Surface Pro, no metro.

I agree with Bill about the direction that everybody (MS, Apple, Google) is taking with cloud computing and making you sign up, sign in, sign your first born away in order to do anything. Everyone is copying Apple and iTunes with an attempt to sell you more and push more spam down the pipe. Bloody annoying and so far Linux distros, in general, have not gone this route yet.

[Medessec]

I agree with Bill about the direction that everybody (MS, Apple, Google) is taking with cloud computing and making you sign up, sign in, sign your first born away in order to do anything.

The idea is that if you own multiple computers, your settings are saved between them so you don't have to worry about flash driving projects between computers, or fetching a document off your other computer when it's off. It's also to help combat piracy, which is of course... going to be a hot-button issue with these guys.

But I don't see the point... See, I use three computers interchangeably at the moment, my Clevo D900F, my T60/61 Frankenpad, and my X60 Tablet. It would be nice to be able to get the same files across all three... but how would that be possible across the cloud? My Clevo has three Hard Drives, and over 2TB of games, movies, footage, and project data. My X60T only has a 64GB SSD, with Windows, Office, and Photoshop. Where's the need to sync an account with that?!

Sure, I can have a cloud, which is freely accessible and linked through my account to all my computers. But... there's SkyDrives, and DropBox, so it's not like it's an entirely original, or special feature. And if I wanted to send files between computers... I just network send it. No need to use Flash Drives, I have shortcuts on my desktop to the share folders, and it's fast enough. It's also reliable, where the internet sometimes fails, a router works as long as it's plugged in. And Wi-Fi cards *usually* don't fail. Even if they do, the trusty Ethernet cable never fails.

There's also email and your browser settings... but Google Chrome does that for you, just in the browser. But that's ALL I need, and all I think anyone else would ever need. Settings to stay synced to the browser. Why would you need to link up, JUST on the computer?

So wait... when you try making an account on 8, it just asks for a whole email and doesn't allow for anything else? It should allow for a guest account... or it should see if you type in an email or not, then say "We see you didn't type in an email. Would you like to create a new limited local-only account with this name?". How difficult is that? But I do agree with Bill that it feels quite intrusive. I'm supposed to trust the OS to not do anything with this email? And this email is my username... am I to trust that any software or product I install or download, won't do anything with my email?

[Cigarguy]

^^^^ Na, I disagree. It's not about me they are concern about. It's about control and $$$ on their part. I get by fine with a USB drive, external HDD, and my own internal network. I do love bookmark synchronization and Firefox with Xmarks add-on is fantastic for that.

[Medessec]

Well, that's basically what I outlined.

Syncing across different computers you own may *seem* like a good idea initially(actually, to me... it's a bad idea from the start) but the point of having different computers is... so each one does different jobs. Usually, they're different sizes, such as my Clevo which is absurdly big, but carries all my media and power, and my X60T, which can itself be carried and is good for battery life. They both are used for completely different purposes, and I don't want the same settings on both of them! The browser is fine. Same bookmarks, same extensions, viewing browsing history from another laptop I was on, that's awesome.

But whole Windows OS, no. Why would you want syncing across that? The idea is pretty much backed by the assumption that people will eventually not have their own computers, but ONLY tablets, phones, and mobile devices. Which suits the group of people in question very well... but us? Nope, we're left to deal with the same conditions drawn out for them, and we're expected to endure it, to compromise with it, because "these are the times. This is the future of computing." It'd better well not be the future of computing... and that's why I have such anxiety and strong feelings over this issue.

[Norway Pad]

I installed Win8 on one of my T60s back when the upgrades could be had very cheap, but I didn't like Metro interface, nor did I like the lack of a start menu. It was not intuitive. I do however believe that I after I while I could probably have learned all the shortcuts and probably been able to operate Win8 just as effective as Win7. It should be possible, as there are users here that obviously manages it. But I didn't bother putting work into learning a new OS at the time, so I went ahead and installed the Stardocks app, which gave me the old start menu back. Some of the Win8 stuff is still there, but less annoying. So I believe it is a learning process.

As a side note: I started using computers at a time when DOS and Win3.1 was the OS, but I remember the transition TO the Win95 and the start menu was more smooth than the transition FROM.

[Medessec]

Well, Windows 95 was made to make Windows far easier to use... and a bit home oriented. But at the same time, the Start Menu provided easy access to certain parts of the computer, and it was only better developed with Windows 98, and in XP when they added the second right-side pane. So it became a core feature in the productivity side of Windows.

I wouldn't say we've transitioned from the Start Menu, because Microsoft likes to say that Metro is the *new* start menu. But I beg to differ. And if you can get it to work for you, that's fine... but for as long as Windows 7 exists, and it still works, that'll be my OS of choice. No real need to upgrade yet, they haven't released .NET 5 yet or whatever, that requires Win8.

[Norway Pad]

...if you can get it to work for you, that's fine... but for as long as Windows 7 exists, and it still works, that'll be my OS of choice...

It is probably an overexaggeration to say that it worked for me, as I had to tweak Win8 to get the basic Win7-like functionality back. On the driver side it was also a bit more hassle on the T60 than Win7 would have been. So I installed it only because of the cheap upgrade (That luckily could be turned into a clean install), and to stay current on knowing how to operate all main OSs available. The latter, however, probably lost it's relevancy when I have altered the way it works.. So for the question: No full Win8 or 8.1 for me either. Not quite yet.

And you are right about the Start Menu. That is in my eyes so essential to operating Windows with a mouse that I still have a hard time seeing why they changed it. Like I said; it's probably a learning process, and it can be done. But I don't think Microsoft made it quite right, and I personally think they should have made 2 versions of Win8: One for touch screen, and one with a start menu for non-touch screens. Or at least given you the option to choose between the two ways of operating.

[BillMorrow]

a few thoughts..

cloud..? why, I don't want my stuff anyplace out of my control.. period.. a real period not an obummer period..
I have terabytes of network attached storage, more than I will ever need.. its here, its a raid array..

in the many years since 1975 or so I have accumulated a LOT of computers.. some do general stuff.. one in the kitchen, a T60.. an h/p touchscreen running win7 or vista, I forget, but I rarely use it in its "touch" ability..
others use it for general internet, word processing and so forth..
all my files are available.. archived documents and text and word docs and pix and music and links and lots more..

metro..? on the tablet 2 it is infuriating.. how do I close some app that I just happened to lightly brush with my finger..
especially since opening something I WANT is difficult, very difficult..

what I see here with win8 and cloud and so forth is an effort on the part of M$ to pull an "apple" and create a huge online store with a captive customer base..

with the fedgov spying on everything and pulling highly illegal tricks to gain and retain power of us "nails" I sure want to keep personal files here and not someplace else (like the NSA computers)..
IRS is targeting enemies..! whats next..
maybe time to find a Linux or unix distro with a decent GUI..
of course there is always text commands a'la DOS and unix without a GUI..

I just do not trust M$ or many of these new breeds of data gatherers..
(one reason I don't collect much here, only enough to be sure someone is honest and not a spammer)

ohhh, sore fingers..
bed time again..
happy easter to all and to all a good night..