End of Life for the T40-T42 series due to 720p playback?

[systemBuilder]

I am thinking that our fleet of T42's is nearing its end-of-life period. Previously, we used them as "super netbooks" : much better screen, faster processor, better keyboard, better apsect ratio, free version of MS-Office (if you buy a corporate castoff laptop just out of warranty / lease period).

But, a number of things have changed in the past 2 years to make me think thrice about continuing to use the T42's we own :

1. No support for DirectX 9.3. This means no way to play newer games, even at low resolution.
2. No support for video at 720p and higher. The best browser is Firefox but it still stalls at 720p.
...a. We tried subscribing to "Fox Soccer 2 go" in 2011 and on our T42/T42p, no matter many tweaks we made, killing all the background process, setting the rendering processes at high priority, 2 GB ram, etc., the playback was at "95%", i.e. stalls or skips 1-2 times every 10 secs. Frustrating!
...b. Home movies taken at 720p with our Panasonic Lumix cameras are completely unplayable on these laptops (have to use super-slow VLC for mp4)
3. Screen is dim by modern LED-lit standards (this is fixable, but at a very high cost)
4. Storage upgrades are limited - PATA drives (WD Blue) at 500 GB (max), PATA SSD at Kingspec 128 GB. Only the former is enough for a home movie archive.
5. The advent of Google Docs (online) and Libre Office (free) make MS-Office far less interesting than in times past.
6. The lack of an XD (execute disable) bit in the memory map machinery has made Windows-8 unable to run on this machine. Much worse than that, new generations of Linux also require the XD bit in the CPU in order to run.

Probably the deal breaker is #2 (and #6 - Linux). We are running T42's with (back-then) state-of-the-art ATI 9600 and FireGL T2 graphics chips (64MB and 128MB), with a little bit of acceleration for video playback, I understand. On these machines, chrome is speedy for page-browsing but you have to switch to Firefox to see YouTube at 480p and there are stalls & skips at all higher resolutions. So browsing is becoming clumsy and tedious. All modern machines (such as my old T420p) have hardware video decoders. My T420p could render HD video at 20% cpu load. The Thinkpad T42 sounds like it's about to melt down while playing 480p video, the fan is running at 18,000 rpm ...

Here's a table of performance values for video playback on the "supposedly fastest" codec, circa 2009 :
http://forums.anandtech.com/archive/ind ... 01062.html
Note that it requires a 2.2 Ghz pentium and ATI 9600 and 512 MB of RAM for 720p video.

What do you think? Do you have a solution for video on the T42p & below machines?

[dr_st]

Unfortunately, it seems to be true.

Specifically, the codecs used for video on the internet (Typically MPEG4 in Flash/HTML5) are for some reason very heavy, or the decoders are inefficient.

Laptops of this generation successfully play 720P content encoded in traditional formats, using desktop decoders such as CoreAVC or ffdshow (libavcodec/ffmpeg-mt). But Youtube brings them to their knees.

[brchan]

Are you using flash or html5 to render videos on the internet? I have found flash to be much faster than html5 on my T23 (running linux), making 360p videos suprisingly smooth with only the occasional jitter. Also, downgrading flash to version 10 and lower will help, but pose a security risk. Also you could try updating graphics drivers or even using linux, as it tends to be less resource hungry and more efficient (puppy linux comes to mind).

[ilakast]

(...)or even using linux, as it tends to be less resource hungry and more efficient (puppy linux comes to mind).

This is the only solution. Hardware-wise all limits have been pushed already. Different software / OS is the only way.

Even more "mainstream" than puppy, X/Lubuntu would fly + the

Code: Select all

minitube-ubuntu

package. I have no T4x laptop at the moment to test, but 720p should work fine. Someone could easily try it and report back. Essentially flash is the culprit not old laptops

[systemBuilder]

I was involved for almost 2 years on a commercial research project on video standards for an adaptive video streaming player.

One of the things I learned is that there are ALMOST NO unique video decoders out in the world, especially for MP4. There is either a hardware decoder, or there is the reference software decoder from MPEG. Very few (if any) companies invest the time & energy to speed up the "open source reference implementation" from MPEG. The MPEG-4 standard in particular encodes arbitrary and misaligned bit sequences to squeeze every bit of juice out of a video stream, and this is very inefficient to decode with a regular CPU.

People think that there are a ton of codecs out there; there are not. There are probably something like 5 major standards and 10 implementations, at most. The reason there seems to be a ton of codecs is because MPEG refuses to specify a file format, therefore, their standards are always incomplete (their focus is always broadcast TV, never computer systems), and so a company (like Macromedia / Adobe) has to show up and define a file format (.flv, .mp4 - including all the extra attributes to "describe"and "seek" in the mpeg file), or Sony (AVCHD) to specify the file & file system format for DVDs.

YouTube is Flash which is h.263(teleconferencing) or .h.264/mpeg4 (.flv file format).
There is also mpeg-4 (.mp4) file format on youtube.

I am not hopeful of finding a codec faster than the one that is already included in Firefox, especially for .mp4 which is what my camera(s) produce.
MP4 is very efficient to download (2.5 Mbps produces great quality) and I don't think that YouTube is the culprit in playback problems, but I can ask those guys if you wish.

[ajkula66]

Essentially flash is the culprit not old laptops

Agreed.

I have a sickly 15" T42p that runs a full-blown Fedora 19 - which is not all that light - like a charm. Couple of early T4x units on Peppermint as well, but that one is pretty light.

Apart from switching to Linux, one could always turn these machines into glorified typewriters given their exceptional keyboards...

[systemBuilder]

The T42/p series will not run Windows 8 (no execute disable bit in the memory map hardware).
I read that future releases of Linux would also REQUIRE this feature. It helps to implement network security because it prevents a virus from writing instructions into RAM and then just jumping to those instructions to take over the processor.

I am surprised that you have Fedora 19 running on your machine? The news I heard about XD and Linux is more than 1 year old ...

- Don

[ajkula66]

I am surprised that you have Fedora 19 running on your machine? The news I heard about XD and Linux is more than 1 year old ...

I know that newer versions of Ubuntu and Mint maintain a PAE requirement. Honestly, I've installed Fedora without even thinking about the whole thing, and it just worked...

[Johan]

The T42/p series will not run Windows 8 (no execute disable bit in the memory map hardware).

You may want to see the thread Windows 8 on a T42 - anyone? pointing to Windows 8 installed on a T42!

With respect to playing especially Flash-based video's on a T42/p; see the thread Having problems with Flash Video. Use Firefox? Try IE.

Johan

[Borias]

How many machines does your "fleet" have? Because at this point some refurb T60 and T61 laptops are approaching the $50 mark and T400 and T500 models are getting down near $100.

If it weren't for that, I would suggest holding on to them for the T50 motherboards, but if you get those you're talking about $135 + new CPU/ram + extensive labor. Only worthwhile if you're really in love with the T42s.

[oeuvre]

I use Combined Community Codec Pack with Media Player Classic and it plays HD video fine on my T42.

[dr_st]

With respect to playing especially Flash-based video's on a T42/p; see the thread Having problems with Flash Video. Use Firefox? Try IE.

FWIW, I compared CPU usage and performance of the flash plugin across the 3 major browsers (IE, Firefox and Chrome) on my X32, and found no differences whatsoever.

[popsmoke]

I have 7 X T42s networked (crazy retirement hobby) and I am NOT having problems with flash video or 720 playback.

All machines are upgraded to max ram, dvd burner, latest drivers from DRIVERPACK, and oh yeah before I forget all T42s tend to liquify their thermal paste over time, and you start to see temperatures of 85 c and you think this is normal because the spec goes to 90c but it is not normal, if you refurbish the thermal paste over the cpu with something like arctic silver operating temps drop to the low 60s and stay there forever, also recommend TFControl if you love your T42
Using XP3 with all needless processes turned off and all needless graphic animations turned off and a few performance tweaks that are commonly known about XP avail on the net.

Yes I know Msft abandoned XP, and I have a few newer Lenovos and Toshibas running Win7, BUT I LIkE MY T42s and use them daily. Have hardened with virus protector and EMET and MBAE and Common Sense. The best is Common Sense, but it is very hard to find.

I run FF 18 full install and Pale Moon Portable 24 both with Flash 11. All flash videos run fine!!!!

I watch a lot of 720 videos. Most run OK in VLC but if I see a problem I run MPLAYER and that solves the problem. Saw a test in PCMAG I think saying MPLAYER is best for this and they are right.

1080? Never going to happen. Hope this helps someone.

Yeah T42s

[exTPfan]

Buy a tablet to watch videos. Keep the T42s for serious stuff. I don't even have Flash on mine.

[dr_st]

Buy a tablet to watch videos. Keep the T42s for serious stuff. I don't even have Flash on mine.

And if I, like a lot of people, enjoy watching some Youtube videos here and there, while doing other, "serious" stuff as well, then I should always have to carry two devices?

[exTPfan]

If you want to watch videos, the T42 is not a good choice. However, that doesn't mean that it's the "end of life" for the T42 (except for those addicted to Youtube).

[dr_st]

Or those looking to do serious number-crunching, compute in parallelized environments, or otherwise do lots of multi-tasking.

The T4x series are still viable for a good lot of basic office and general-purpose tasks. But the number of such tasks is diminishing, little by little, every month of every year.

[brchan]

There are youtube clients such as minitube (windows/linux) and youtube-viewer (linux) which should play 720p video easily. I went to 1080p on my T43 and the CPU usage was ~68% on fullscreen IIRC.

[ilakast]

I have no T4x laptop at the moment to test

I'm resurrecting an ailing T42 from XP (SP2) to LXLE http://lxle.net/about/ Everything works out of the box & it's "modern" too. Very happy. No, 720p does not work smoothly, audio and video are out of sync. But this is not the intended use of this laptop.

[dr_st]

There are youtube clients such as minitube (windows/linux) and youtube-viewer (linux) which should play 720p video easily. I went to 1080p on my T43 and the CPU usage was ~68% on fullscreen IIRC.

Great recommendation! I tried minitube and indeed noticed that it is significantly lighter on the resources than the Flash/HTML5 players on Youtube.

It is not perfect though - it seems to have an issue with scaling - on my X32 the full video frame is not displayed, but only a part of it (possibly due to the 1024x768 being too low). It also seems to still consume CPU even when the video is paused, something which does not happen with the built-in players in the browser. Finally it would be nice if it supported multiple videos in different tabs/sub-windows (something which we take for granted in the browser).

I'll have to try it out a bit longer before deciding whether to buy. The price seems very affordable, though (7.99 Euro).

[brchan]

Glad you have some success with minitube. Indeed It does have some bugs on some configurations and did not work with my T23 (video card too old), but it generally works pretty well. Also, the Linux version is completely free for some reason.

[sdfox7]

I use Netflix YouTube and Hulu on my mint T40 with no issues whatsoever. 32MB dedicated video.

I think in all reality there's only so much you can expect from a 12-year-old machine. I think it is unrealistic to run Windows 8 on it. Why run a new OS on an old machine?

[popsmoke]

Why run a new OS on an old machine?

Let's make some assumptions. Say you are a semi-retired accountant that collects and fixes computers as a hobby. Say you have 16 or 17 working machines, including desktops and laptops, macs and pcs, but no mobile devices. Some very new, some with dual core, some with dual exhaust, some with fancy graphics. Say the T42s (six in all, of the mix) are your faves because of the ergonometics, they just feel right, the keyboard feels right, the whole machine is the friendliest. And the sound is incredible for a laptop, out of the box. OK? Still with me on these wild and wacky assumptions? Say you use one of these in particular as a dedicated machine for accounting, filing online personal and corporate returns for your remaining clients. Say you are using a hardened version of XP3 on the T42s, none of which has never had a virus or infection. Now, assumptions all in, say you get a message from the firm that supplies your corporate tax software (a yearly package which used to sell for $79 and is now $565) saying, gosh, since Microsoft no longer supports XP, why the heck should we, so upgrade or die.

Gotta admit that is pickle, assuming you don't want to transfer to one of the newer (but less friendly) machines that already has Win7....?

So, the real question becomes (already did the 720 thing above) how does a T42 handle Win7? Answer: astonishingly well. The install is a drag, because MSFT does everything to discourage the use of old machines except actually send a rep to your house and burn them where they stand. I did a dual boot with the second (new) partition reserved for Win7, and iREBOOT to switch. The first install is a mess. The wireless becomes orphaned and a generic video driver is installed which won't even run a basic screensaver. In fact, courtesy of MSFT, it actually puts text on the screen reprimanding you for trying to use old hardware. Real sense of humor those guys have. But, as members of this forum have pointed out, you can "force install" the wireless driver and the video drivers from XP. You won't be playing any fancy games, but you get back your screensaver and basic playback ability (includes Flash, WMP, and oh yeah a really old version of KMPLAYER worked well too).

So, assuming you are running a 2gb T42 with fast hard drive, you are good to go.

All just theory of course.

Just sayin...

[Bibin]

Going to recommend against using a T42 or older on Windows 7, as the video drivers will cause STOP errors ("bluescreen") in a lot of situations when an accelerated surface is created.

[GACrabill]

Going to recommend against using a T42 or older on Windows 7, as the video drivers will cause STOP errors ("bluescreen") in a lot of situations when an accelerated surface is created.

Assuming that your graphics chip is an ATI 7500 or ATI 9000, then with Win7 you will need to be using video driver version "6.14.10.6606".

You can find it here :
http://www.mediafire.com/download/5tieo ... 0.6606.zip#

Many folks on this forum have been using this version of the driver for years with NO problems.

[Pingwin Wielki]

I am thinking that our fleet of T42's is nearing its end-of-life period. Previously, we used them as "super netbooks" : much better screen, faster processor, better keyboard, better apsect ratio, free version of MS-Office (if you buy a corporate castoff laptop just out of warranty / lease period).

Please let me add some spice to this list.

Do you remember all those classic 8-bit and 16-bit machines of 80's? Sinclair Spectrum, Commodore C64, Amiga 500, Atari ST, Apple II, Gameboy and others... There are some software emulators of those computers and they work astoningly well on T4x.

So, you can install some emulators, add hundreds of free games and have a good time with Manic Miner and other classic programs. T42 is a perfect platform for emulating other platforms.

It may be also the first computer for your kids. No small parts that can be swallowed, tough case... and most important of it all, it can keep your kids away from your main notebook that you use for everyday use. T42 as a toy placed in the kids room, somewhere among all that Lego stuff.

And if you have the docking station with RS232 port, you will be able to use T4x in Arduino projects, to control advanced robots... or a drone.

I have a fleet of about 10 T4x, most of them bought for pennies within the last 12 months, and I'm not going to retire them soon. Their usability is superior when comparing with actual prices, especially when you buy a broken T4x and fix it (second hand original spare parts are cheap).

[sdfox7]

I don't want to bring this back from the dead, but this is advice more for future readers that stumble across this thread. In my experience and opinion, a fully patched Windows 7 SP1 installation with even a light antivirus like Avast on a single core processor with 2GB RAM runs like a dog. At minimum, Windows 7 SP1 should have a dual core with 4GB. Fast forward through 6 years worth of patches, and I believe Windows 7's RTM requirements are no longer relevant or logical.

Microsoft says it "runs" on 1GB RAM, but open Task Manager to see how much you have available after installing antivirus and opening a webpage. It won't be a fun experience. This is why XP was still shipping on netbooks as recently as October 2010, well after Windows 7 was released. It is also why I have remained a steadfast supporter for XP on older single core machines.

[ajkula66]

I don't want to bring this back from the dead, but this is advice more for future readers that stumble across this thread. In my experience and opinion, a fully patched Windows 7 SP1 installation with even a light antivirus like Avast on a single core processor with 2GB RAM runs like a dog.

I'd argue that the GPU as well as the actual processor at hand can make quite a bit of difference here. With that being said, no system from this era will be a speed demon within the W7 environment, that much is certain.

At minimum, Windows 7 SP1 should have a dual core with 4GB. Fast forward through 6 years worth of patches, and I believe Windows 7's RTM requirements are no longer relevant or logical.

Agreed.

[oeuvre]

I'd honestly say anything single core just won't cut it anymore.

[ajkula66]

I'd honestly say anything single core just won't cut it anymore.

For any serious work apart from the Office environment, absolutely.