Thinkpad alternative

[precip9]

As can be seen by my sig, I have a collection of classic machines that I actually, happily use. My choice was based on the superiority of construction and utility over the alternatives. Some, but not all, of the desirable features were available in other laptops, but not in the same combination:

1. Flex cables terminated in with real connectors, instead of zif sockets.
2. Carbon fiber/magnesium cases, with the famous stainless steel hinges. Anyone with a complaint about the hinges should take a look at those on an HP DV series laptop, which are made of aluminum, consequently prone to fatigue fracture, or just breaking off because the lid opening angle is limited.
3. Good thermal design, with the battery at the back. HP and Dell have, at least in the past, not been as good at this.
4. The famously great keyboard.
5. The large user knowledge base, making it easy to source replacement parts and mods.
6. The absence, on the classics, of battery coding, so 3rd party batteries can be used.
7. The overall utilitarian objective.

Unfortunately, developments of international relations make it increasingly possible that, using the same methods as parts counterfeiters of the past, governments will insert back doors in system chips or support chips, associating a newer Thinkpad with an unknown security risk. The practicability of this is illustrated by the apparent fact that U.S. routers sold to China have, it is alleged, been tampered with.

To put it simply the U.S. and China, are not comfortable with each other anymore. The atmosphere of friendship has been replaced by suspicion. So I'm looking to shift in the future to something with less likelihood of tampering instigated by the government of China. It isn't really possible to avoid mainland China parts, but I'd like the overall supervision of the product to be U.S. based. So I guess this means: HP or Dell. If the machine is going to have a backdoor, I would prefer it be a U.S. backdoor.

Are there any lines by these makers that could replace the Thinkpad niche I have grown to love?

[PowerPC]

I would recommend the fastest ThinkPad that supports coreboot.

As a Brazilian, I'm not comfortable with tampering from any source. And since I wouldn't touch any non 4:3 laptop without a ten foot pole, I'm well served by my T60.

[precip9]

Coreboot would not mitigate the hazard. Support chips can contain backdoors. The Intel chips would be difficult to counterfeit, but any other PGA based support chip can have a backdoor.

[ajkula66]

Are there any lines by these makers that could replace the Thinkpad niche I have grown to love?

There are compromises to be made, no matter how you look at it...

Dell's Precision line has an excellent keyboard IMO but a lousy trackpoint. HP's EliteBooks are the other way around.

If you can forget the TrackPoint, ToughBook is your best friend. Seriously.

My $0.02 only...

[precip9]

The Toughbook, semi-ruggedized is practical, but there is a significant cost premium. The fully ruggedized versions incur the weight penalty that usually goes with tank armor.

The Dell portable workstations are outstanding. Otherwise, has anyone compared equivalent tiers of Dell and HP ?

My HP DV5z, dating to 2008, exemplifies why classic Thinkpads have such a following. It has exactly one thing over the Thinkpad: the keytops, and, in fact, the whole upper surface, seem immune to wear. But otherwise:

The hinges break, not occasionally like Thinkpads, but routinely.
No lid latch.
Cheap ABS plastic widely used, though I think the inner frame is magnesium.
The thermal design cooks the battery.
No charge control.
Glitzy design, loaded with fake chrome and huge speaker grills covering tiny speakers.

Has HP improved since?

[ZaZ]

Dell's Precision line has an excellent keyboard IMO but a lousy trackpoint.

I'm not sure lousy is the right word. It's true overall the ThinkPad trackpoint is better than the Dell and the Dell implementation makes a bad first impression, but like anything in life, the more you use it, the better you get at it. I was terrible the Dell version having used ThinkPads for so long, but once you learn to hit the sweet spot, it gets better and at least I've got trackpoint buttons.

[mikemex]

If you're going to become political about laptops you should at least get your facts checked. According to the latest events, such as Manning's leak of secret documents and Snowden's NSA scandal, you're picking the wrong side. The probability that the US government is funding the back doors you're talking about is much greater than the rest of the countries of the world combined; and that includes China

One thing is certain: while US media portrays Russia and China as the evil people of the tale, truth is that they are just responding to the increased aggressiveness of the US government. It's no coincidence that the "enemies" of the US are those with independent monetary systems, such as the yuan or the ruble. Iran has been exchanging oil for gold with China and little known by most, Saddam Hussein wanted to open an oil bursae in euros. And the reason for this is that, ever since after WW2, the US enjoyed a privilege that no other country had: to print fresh bills and hand them out as if they were earned, knowing that they would be accepted after the Breton Wood's agreements. China is particularly upset about this situation, because they are getting paid for their hard work with dollars that are steadily losing value, so any gain in productivity is negated in practice by inflation of the dollar. Anyone with a minimal knowledge of economics knows that the dollar boat is flooding and it's time to leave the ship. The US government is just like a mad captain with a gun in hand threatening everyone who attempts to leave the sinking ship with violence.

Put it simple, it's not about mass destruction weapons, it's not about freedom, it's not even about oil: it's about protecting the right to write everyone checks without the risk of having anyone actually cash them. And if you don't believe me, search for the instances in which foreign investors are continually denied the right to buy property in the US "for national security purposes". They've already tried to buy ports, roadways, power companies, etc. If the right to print dollars and hand them out is threatened, how will the US pay its astronomical debt?

[pianowizard]

Anyone with a complaint about the hinges should take a look at those on an HP DV series laptop

You are comparing Thinkpads with Pavilions, the crappiest consumer line around!

The Toughbook, semi-ruggedized is practical, but there is a significant cost premium.

Buy used. $500 can get you a really nice recent model. But there's one thing to consider: Toughbooks tend to have noisy fans. I have owned four Y Series Toughbooks and all of their fans turn on quite often. That has never bothered me, but the person who bought the last Y Series that I sold hated it. I think these ultra sensitive fans are intended to prevent overheating, so in a way they are actually a good design (just like for the T43/43p Thinkpads). But people with ultra sensitive ears should avoid.

My HP DV5z, dating to 2008, exemplifies why classic Thinkpads have such a following.

It exemplifies nothing. It's not a typical non-Thinkpad laptop. It's not even a typical HP laptop. In fact, I am impressed that you have a 6-year-old Pavilion that still works! I bet you almost never use or even touch it.

It has exactly one thing over the Thinkpad: the keytops

This is indeed the weakest spot of Thinkpads. Even the bumps on the "F" and "J" keys get worn out very fast.

No lid latch.

Do Thinkpads still use lid latches?

Has HP improved since?

No, the Pavilions have not improved since. If anything, they probably have gotten worse, because they are the rock bottom budget line that HP uses to compete with Acer's, Dell's and Toshiba's equally abysmal $250 craptops. Back in 2008 when you bought your DV5z, the cheapest laptops started around $350 if I remember correctly, so they still had a little bit of quality left.

HP's business-class laptops probably also have not improved over the years, because they have always been pretty good.

I'm not sure lousy is the right word. It's true overall the ThinkPad trackpoint is better than the Dell and the Dell implementation makes a bad first impression

I too have never understood why ajkula66 dislikes Dell's trackpoint so much. My first laptop was a Dell Inspiron 8200 with both a trackpoint and a touchpad. I tried both input devices and found the trackpoint much easier to use. Just a month later, I bought a Thinkpad 600E which of course was trackpoint-only, and I didn't notice any difference. I continued to use trackpoints virtually exclusively for about two more years, until I bought a trackpoint-less Inspiron 700m that forced me to get used to touchpads.

The probability that the US government is funding the back doors you're talking about is much greater than the rest of the countries of the world combined; and that includes China

But that's only based on what the public knows. Media in the U.S. thrive on exposing secrets. We know far less about the rest of the world, because many governments control the media.

One thing is certain:

Don't be so certain about everything that you read or hear.

[precip9]

If you're going to become political about laptops you should at least get your facts checked. According to the latest events, such as Manning's leak of secret documents and Snowden's NSA scandal, you're picking the wrong side. The probability that the US government is funding the back doors you're talking about is much greater than the rest of the countries of the world combined; and that includes China

Perhaps, but I don't care if the NSA hacks my laptop. I do care if China does.

But please do not interpret the above as a political statement. If you are a U.S. citizen, you have the legal right to privacy, and that means, that nobody hacks your laptop. If you are in Mexico, that is an issue between the Mexico and U.S. governments.

As a U.S. citizen, it is my particular preference not to care if the NSA hacks mine.

[precip9]

The Toughbook, semi-ruggedized is practical, but there is a significant cost premium.

Buy used. $500 can get you a really nice recent model. But there's one thing to consider: Toughbooks tend to have noisy fans. I have owned four Y Series Toughbooks and all of their fans turn on quite often. That has never bothered me, but the person who bought the last Y Series that I sold hated it. I think these ultra sensitive fans are intended to prevent overheating, so in a way they are actually a good design (just like for the T43/43p Thinkpads). But people with ultra sensitive ears should avoid.

The fan would be a breaker for me.

My HP DV5z, dating to 2008, exemplifies why classic Thinkpads have such a following.

It exemplifies nothing. It's not a typical non-Thinkpad laptop. It's not even a typical HP laptop. In fact, I am impressed that you have a 6-year-old Pavilion that still works! I bet you almost never use or even touch it.

It has a very bright, contrasty, 1680x1050 screen. It's a good temporary machine when a desktop breaks. The battery is not used, so it doesn't get cooked. The connectivity is above par. Unfortunately, the video seems to be gradually turning into a modern-art display. I am a connoisseur of broken video, but the range of creativity of the AMD chip is quite inspiring.

Is Dell still unique in not using white lists?

[ajkula66]

Is Dell still unique in not using white lists?

Yes.

What size machine are you looking for to begin with?

[pianowizard]

Perhaps, but I don't care if the NSA hacks my laptop. I do care if China does...As a U.S. citizen, it is my particular preference not to care if the NSA hacks mine.

I feel exactly the same, especially since I am not doing anything shady on my computers, or anywhere else for that matter. I would be concerned if my superiors at work were eavesdropping on me, but don't care about the NSA.

It has a very bright, contrasty, 1680x1050 screen. It's a good temporary machine when a desktop breaks. The battery is not used, so it doesn't get cooked. The connectivity is above par.

Your dv5z is probably very similar to this one: http://www.notebookreview.com/notebookr ... 5z-review/ . The specs are good, but to keep the price budget-friendly, cheap components were used.

The fan would be a breaker for me.

All Toughbooks I've owned have been Y-Series: Y4, Y5, Y7 and Y9. I don't know if the other series also have hyperactive fans.

What size machine are you looking for to begin with?

Also, what's your (the OP's) weight limit? Both Dell and HP make some excellent business-class laptops, but these are almost invariably heavier than the comparable Thinkpads.

[precip9]

Also, what's your (the OP's) weight limit? Both Dell and HP make some excellent business-class laptops, but these are almost invariably heavier than the comparable Thinkpads.

One of the neat things about classic Thinkpads is the many form factors. I have the subnotebooks, the 14" mainstreams, and the desktop replacements.

But the next priority would be something with Nvidia graphics that can handle the occasional video editing job, but without the weight penalty of full workstation optimization as with the Dell Precisions. A weight of 6.5 lbs is tolerable, about or a little more than a W500. The professional version of Nvidia is preferable for the very picky editing suites.

I've been holding off because of the unavailability of 16:10 screens. But by the time that becomes again popular, laptops may all be constructed along the nonservicable Apple model.

[pianowizard]

One of the neat things about classic Thinkpads is the many form factors. I have the subnotebooks, the 14" mainstreams, and the desktop replacements.

Thinkpads still have all three form factors, and so do other brands of business-class laptops. In fact, there are now at least four form factors.

But the next priority would be something with Nvidia graphics that can handle the occasional video editing job, but without the weight penalty of full workstation optimization as with the Dell Precisions. A weight of 6.5 lbs is tolerable, about or a little more than a W500. The professional version of Nvidia is preferable for the very picky editing suites.

Dell designs and advertises its Latitudes to be equivalent to the Thinkpads. As far as weight and most other specs are concerned, they are indeed fairly similar, but quality- and reliability-wise, only some Latitudes are as good as the Thinkpads. I think as long as you do enough research and pick the very best Latitudes, then you should be fine. The Latitudes with 3 years of warranty by default are the ones that Dell considers to be the best, though I am sure that within this elite group, some models are better than others. Again, it's important to do some research.

But if you want to get the very best Dell, my vote would be for the Precisions. You limit of 6.5 lbs rules out the 17-inchers, leaving you with the 15-inch Precisions.

[ajkula66]

The fan would be a breaker for me.

^^^^^^^^

This,

when combined with this:

But the next priority would be something with Nvidia graphics that can handle the occasional video editing job

is sheer fantasy land.

If you want a GPU powerful enough to do any type of video editing, you *will* hear the fan(s). No ifs, ands or buts about it.

[precip9]

The fan would be a breaker for me.

^^^^^^^^

This,

when combined with this:

But the next priority would be something with Nvidia graphics that can handle the occasional video editing job

is sheer fantasy land.

If you want a GPU powerful enough to do any type of video editing, you *will* hear the fan(s). No ifs, ands or buts about it.

Yeah, yeah. Silence is only required with integrated graphics. I'm reasonable.

[ajkula66]

Yeah, yeah. Silence is only required with integrated graphics. I'm reasonable.

Well, then I'd suggest browsing Dell's Outlet for a newer Precision with an IPS FHD panel...patience is a virtue but deals can be had...

I actually own the last 16:10 15.4" non-Macbook laptop standing, but it has no nVidia graphics, weighs more than you'd like and likely costs way more than you'd choose to spend on a new machine...

Model Number:
CF-52VAACY1M Status:CURRENT MSRP:$3,069
Description: Windows 7 Professional, Intel Core i5‑3360M 2.80GHz, 15.4" WUXGA LCD, 500GB Shock‑mounted HDD (7200rpm), 4GB, ATI Discrete Graphics, Wi‑Fi, Bluetooth, Insertable SmartCard Reader, DVD Super MULTI Drive, TPM 1.2, Toughbook Preferred

Mine is not exactly the same, but the configuration is close enough...

[waterloo]

A lot of companies I know are moving to HP Elitebooks... Not sure why they don't go to Dell though

[Theokretes]

I too have never understood why ajkula66 dislikes Dell's trackpoint so much. My first laptop was a Dell Inspiron 8200 with both a trackpoint and a touchpad. I tried both input devices and found the trackpoint much easier to use. Just a month later, I bought a Thinkpad 600E which of course was trackpoint-only, and I didn't notice any difference. I continued to use trackpoints virtually exclusively for about two more years, until I bought a trackpoint-less Inspiron 700m that forced me to get used to touchpads.

Oh I know exactly why ajkula66 dislikes the dell trackpoints.

The Dell and HP trackpoint implementations have:
A) bad drifting and don't recover in 2 - 3 seconds like the IBM implementation
B) slower/muddier movement, you can't 'sharp angle' the cursor with sudden jolts of movement to jump it to a point you specifically want
C) no selection of different rubber caps, and they're quite shallow. My favourites are the 'soft rim' variants which poke up a bit higher and also allow very good accuracy
D) no middle scroll button (very essential)

At least that's my experience with the newer trackpoint implementations. I've never used a pentium 4 dell laptop: I knew the Inspirion 8200 was a pentium 4 laptop just by its sheer size-- which means there's an airblower hidden in there with 10 lbs of copper heatpipes.
(and yes some of the older IBM trackpoints suffer from the same maladies as mentioned above, but I don't use vintage trackpoints for my heavy practical work).

[dr_st]

D) no middle scroll button (very essential)

I think most DELLs and the higher-sized HPs (15" and up) have a middle button. Is it just that software does not enable scrolling with it?

[pianowizard]

The Dell and HP trackpoint implementations have:
A) bad drifting and don't recover in 2 - 3 seconds like the IBM implementation

I have owned nearly 50 Thinkpads and many of them had this problem too. Not a huge problem if the laptop also had a touchpad, because the drift could be stopped simply by touching the touchpad. But if the trackpoint was the only input device, then I was out of luck.

B) slower/muddier movement, you can't 'sharp angle' the cursor with sudden jolts of movement to jump it to a point you specifically want

I don't know what you mean by "muddy", but motion speed can be adjusted through Mouse Properties. Oh wait, you are right. I have had more than a few laptops whose trackpoints were so pitifully slow that they were still too slow even after maximizing pointer speed -- and all these were Thinkpads, not Dells or HPs.

D) no middle scroll button (very essential)

I asked ajkula66 before and this wasn't the reason that he gave.

[automobus]

Oh I know exactly why ajkula66 dislikes the dell trackpoints.

The real problem is, IBM TrackPoint IV is still the latest TrackPoint even today: it has advanced not one bit in more than fifteen years! Only click-button shape has been tweaked and redesigned. The astronauts have not paid IBM to improve it, and IBM no longer sells their excellence to consumers.

[ajkula66]

Oh I know exactly why ajkula66 dislikes the dell trackpoints.

Dell's implementation just doesn't feel right under my finger and I find it imprecise.

HP - with a proper ThinkPad cap - is actually scary close to the original. Something I could definitely live with on a daily basis.

And I use the original "eraser" caps on my own machines.

[JaneL]

HP - with a proper ThinkPad cap - is actually scary close to the original. Something I could definitely live with on a daily basis.

And I use the original "eraser" caps on my own machines.

My work machine is an HP, and I agree. It's not as good as a TrackPoint, but with a real softdome cap, it's acceptable. The keyboard layout is awful, of course, but that's become the standard now.

[ZaZ]

I replaced the keyboard on my E7440 with the backlit one. Both the keyboard and stick feel better than the original, but are not close to the seven row or the chiclet for that matter.

[pianowizard]

Dell's implementation just doesn't feel right under my finger and I find it imprecise.

All the Dell trackpoints I've used are fairly old -- the newest was the Latitude D820. They were just as precise as Thinkpad trackpoints. Perhaps newer Dells are worse?

[ajkula66]

All the Dell trackpoints I've used are fairly old -- the newest was the Latitude D820. They were just as precise as Thinkpad trackpoints. Perhaps newer Dells are worse?

I can't make that comparison since I really don't recall the old ones. My experiences are based on Precision 4500, 4700 and 6700...

[pianowizard]

I can't make that comparison since I really don't recall the old ones. My experiences are based on Precision 4500, 4700 and 6700...

Can you reenact the imprecision of recent Dell trackpoints on a Thinkpad by unchecking the "Enhance pointer precision" option in Mouse Properties? I just want to better understand what you mean.

[ajkula66]

I can't make that comparison since I really don't recall the old ones. My experiences are based on Precision 4500, 4700 and 6700...

Can you reenact the imprecision of recent Dell trackpoints on a Thinkpad by unchecking the "Enhance pointer precision" option in Mouse Properties? I just want to better understand what you mean.

No.

It's a whole different experience, at least the way I see it. Lot to do with the initial physical contact between my fingers and the trackpoint.

[portsample]

Here is an interesting laptop design that is being crowd sourced. The modular aspect reminds me of my old 760ED.
https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena
Specs are a little weak, but I like the overall concept.