** WTB X1 carbon **

[BillMorrow]

even though i really should not, i would like to get a decent used X1 carbon, if for no other reason than to see one of these..

[ZaZ]

Sorry Bill, I don't have a X1C to sell you, but I did get the opportunity to spend a couple months with a review unit a few years ago. It was the Gen 1 X1C with proper trackpoint buttons. It's very nice machine. While the screen was probably the best 14" ThinkPad screen to date, it was still a TN panel with its inherent flaws. If it had a IPS LCD, that's probably what I'd own instead of this Dell.

[BillMorrow]

uhmmm, same goes for the X300 with its crappy display..
still and all its a very nice thinkpad..

but if i am going to shift some $ to an X1 i'll want it to have a decent display..

in my mind at least an IPS display should be in the parts list for both X300 series (or should have been) and the X1.. so those in the corporate fleet world can have a cheaper display for the drudge workers and a real display for those who need a decent display.. maybe its just me..

i guess i can wait until the cost for a good X1 meets my silliness budget and then pounce on one..
that is if i can figure out which model has the best display..

[ZaZ]

same goes for the X300 with its crappy display.

I would not describe the X1C display as crappy at all. It has good color and decent sized sweet sport. It's a bit blue out of the box, but that can be mitigated with calibration. It just can't compare to an IPS LCD. The notebook that it reminded me of a lot was the 13" MBA, which also has a nice TN panel.

[pianowizard]

I would not describe the X1C display as crappy at all.

I saw a current-generation X1C with 1600x900 just two weeks ago. I found that screen stunningly disgusting. Very mediocre even among TN panels.

[exTPfan]

I've seriously tried both the X301 and the original X1 carbon. Both are beautiful machines, but the quality of the X301 screen was simply too poor for me, and the screen on the X1 carbon too short (but much better quality than the X301). Incidentally, the only more-or-less reliable source of information on laptop screens I've found is at NotebookCheck.net.

[BillMorrow]

well, i'll wait a bit and see what presents itself..
thanks for the comments..
too bad about sub par displays for an otherwise excellent thinkpad..

[erik]

as a simple web browsing / office system, the original X1C's display is worlds above standard TN panels and markedly better than the X300/X301.   like ZaZ said, adjusting the blue cast out of it goes a long way.   the viewing angle is wide enough to appear like a low-end IPS panel.   colors are slightly saturated but still look good for 99.9% of users.   i still don't like the 6-row keyboard but the build quality is certainly up there.

it's all a matter of needs, use, and knowing a panel's limitations.   the X60T AFFS+ SXGA panel is still one of the best out there for notebook color but i'd never in a million year perform color-critical work on a notebook display from any manufacturer.   i've yet to see a notebook perform anywhere near a proper NEC or eizo graphics display connected to true 10-bit output from an nvidia quadro.   it's all relative.

find an original X1C and give it a shot.   you might be pleasantly surprised.

[pianowizard]

as a simple web browsing / office system, the original X1C's display is worlds above standard TN panels and markedly better than the X300/X301.

I believe we are talking about two different panels. The X1 Carbon that I saw two weeks ago was the current (3rd) generation, for which one can pick either 1600x900 TN or 2560x1440 IPS with multitouch. When Lenovo offers multiple resolutions for a laptop, it tends to downgrade the quality of the lower/lowest-res panel, presumably to enhance the contrast between it and the higher-res options. But for the 1st-gen X1 Carbon, 1600x900 was the only resolution offered, so Lenovo used a better panel.

[erik]

I believe we are talking about two different panels. The X1 Carbon that I saw two weeks ago was the current (3rd) generation, for which one can pick either 1600x900 TN or 2560x1440 IPS with multitouch. When Lenovo offers multiple resolutions for a laptop, it tends to downgrade the quality of the lower/lowest-res panel, presumably to enhance the contrast between it and the higher-res options. But for the 1st-gen X1 Carbon, 1600x900 was the only resolution offered, so Lenovo used a better panel.

i haven't seen the current-gen X1C to compare to mine.   what i have is perfectly acceptable for daily use.

display notwithstanding, with the latest ones missing the physical trackpoint scroll button i wouldn't recommend it for that reason alone.   the 6-row keyboard is usable but the lack of proper trackpoint system kills it.

[indotoonster]

I believe we are talking about two different panels. The X1 Carbon that I saw two weeks ago was the current (3rd) generation, for which one can pick either 1600x900 TN or 2560x1440 IPS with multitouch. When Lenovo offers multiple resolutions for a laptop, it tends to downgrade the quality of the lower/lowest-res panel, presumably to enhance the contrast between it and the higher-res options. But for the 1st-gen X1 Carbon, 1600x900 was the only resolution offered, so Lenovo used a better panel.

i haven't seen the current-gen X1C to compare to mine.   what i have is perfectly acceptable for daily use.

display notwithstanding, with the latest ones missing the physical trackpoint scroll button i wouldn't recommend it for that reason alone.   the 6-row keyboard is usable but the lack of proper trackpoint system kills it.

Same thinking here! I'm currently using an original X1C, and for me the screen is MUCH better than the TN panels found on the X301/301, T420/s, T430/s. It's not IPS but it's good enough for my purposes.

Having struggled with (and eventually sold on) a Helix that uses the "integrated" trackpad I have vowed to never buy another ThinkPad from the current generation (or future generations unless they reintroduce physical trackpoint buttons).

I do have a comment about the X1C build quality, though: I find keyboard flex to be quite significant. Compared to a T420s, the keyboard frame is a bit flimsy. Just try pressing on the frame, particularly to the right of the trackpoint buttons, and you'll see a lot of movement

BTW, I'm a bit confused with what people are calling the 2014 X1C: 2nd ord 3rd gen? It seems that Lenovo's technical documentation refers to it as 2nd gen, but some people seem to call it 3rd gen... if so, what was considered 2nd gen? the X1C Touch?

[pianowizard]

i haven't seen the current-gen X1C to compare to mine.   what i have is perfectly acceptable for daily use.

Let me stress that I am very tolerant of TN screens. Several people on this forum can't stand any TN screens -- I am NOT one of them. The 1600x900 X1C screen that I saw two weeks ago (again, that's the current generation, not the original) was definitely worse than the typical TN panel.

BTW, I just looked at the specs for the original X1C and learned that there was a 1366x768 option. That pretty much guarantees that Lenovo used a good 1600x900 panel, because it was the highest resolution.

display notwithstanding, with the latest ones missing the physical trackpoint scroll button i wouldn't recommend it for that reason alone.   the 6-row keyboard is usable but the lack of proper trackpoint system kills it.

Actually, it has a 5-row keyboard, because the F keys aren't real keys. This means one would need to look at the keyboard to hit the F keys. People including myself had complained about the disappearance of the gaps between F4 and F5, and between F8 and F9. Well, this made the problem even worse.

I haven't seen the 2560x1440 screen. I'm sure it's much better quality than the 1600x900 panel but wouldn't recommend it because Windows and most Windows-based programs still can't scale properly. Thus, I see no reason to get the current-generation X1C.

I do have a comment about the X1C build quality, though: I find keyboard flex to be quite significant. Compared to a T420s, the keyboard frame is a bit flimsy. Just try pressing on the frame, particularly to the right of the trackpoint buttons, and you'll see a lot of movement

This is a typical problem for super thin, super light laptops. For me, it's a reasonable compromise. If the X1C were as robust as the T420s, it would weigh at least half a pound more.

BTW, I'm a bit confused with what people are calling the 2014 X1C: 2nd ord 3rd gen? It seems that Lenovo's technical documentation refers to it as 2nd gen, but some people seem to call it 3rd gen... if so, what was considered 2nd gen? the X1C Touch?

I haven't kept track of the different generations closely. I saw that X1C at a store, and was told by an employee that it was 3rd generation. Perhaps he was thinking of the original X1 as gen 1, the original X1 Carbon as gen 2, and the current X1 Carbon as gen 3?

[erik]

the original X1 was just that... an X1.   the X1C is a completely different platform and only has two major generations as of right now.   the nomenclature is confusing but mentioning "carbon" puts the discussion on a totally separate design.   basically X1 != X1C

i have a 1st-gen X1C and recommend it.   i've not used a 2nd-gen since it dropped the physical trackpoint nav key and SD card reader—although the 2560x1440 panel option is certainly compelling.

[pianowizard]

the original X1 was just that... an X1.   the X1C is a completely different platform and only has two major generations as of right now.   the nomenclature is confusing but mentioning "carbon" puts the discussion on a totally separate design.   basically X1 != X1C

If you are 100% sure that the current X1C is 2nd gen, then that guy at the store was certainly confused.

I have seen the X1 in person. It felt solid, but was very heavy for an X Series, and of course the resolution (1366x768) was too low for a 13.3-incher. In many ways, it was Lenovo's equivalent of Dell's Adamo. Both Lenovo and Dell considered these "experiments". They started with these sleek-looking laptops that were very well built but overly heavy. Then they tried to see what corners they could cut to reduce the weight while increasing the screen size. Now, both companies have 14-inchers that weigh less but are also less sturdy, which is fine with me.

i have a 1st-gen X1C and recommend it.

IMO, it's the most appealing Thinkpad since the X201s. I too would recommend it to people who find 1600x900 sufficient on a 14" screen. I wouldn't buy one for myself though, because I need more than 1600x900.

i've not used a 2nd-gen since it dropped the physical trackpoint nav key and SD card reader—although the 2560x1440 panel option is certainly compelling.

So you are okay with the 5-row keyboard?

2560x1440 is compelling...until you have tried to actually used it.

[indotoonster]

2560x1440 is compelling...until you have tried to actually used it.

Sage advice from you, pianowizard

I too am a resolution junkie, and have carried out both the X6* SXGA+ and T6* QXGA mods, and I remember reading your thread way back when you decided that the QXGA mod was ultimately not worth it. I also eventually arrived at the same conclusion (especially given the low brightness of the QXGA panel).

I shudder to think what you have to say about the Yoga 2 Pro's 3200x1800 13.3" panel

Also, I find it utterly astounding that we can now find 2560x1440 resolutions in *smartphones*. Aside from marketing oneupmanship, I really can't understand what possible benefit underlies such a design decision, given the added processing, heat, and battery consumption.

[pianowizard]

I shudder to think what you have to say about the Yoga 2 Pro's 3200x1800 13.3" panel

I saw one two weeks ago at the same store where I played with the X1 Carbon. But I glanced at it (the Yoga 2 Pro) for just 2 seconds and moved on.

The ability of Windows and programs to scale needs to get substantially better before I would buy any of these denser-than-Retina Wintel laptops. Scaling is particularly important for touchscreens, because things need to be big enough to be touched accurately: if I need 200% scaling to see things comfortably, I need 300% scaling for accurate finger pointing.

Also, I find it utterly astounding that we can now find 2560x1440 resolutions in *smartphones*. Aside from marketing oneupmanship, I really can't understand what possible benefit underlies such a design decision, given the added processing, heat, and battery consumption.

Well, smartphones are viewed at much shorter distances than laptops, and most smartphone apps do scale well, so it's not that crazy to have higher pixel densities for smartphones than for laptops. But I agree that 2560x1440 on 5.5" (534 PPI; e.g. the LG G3) or 5.7" (515 PPI; e.g. the Samsung Note 4) is overkill, because our visual acuity can't resolve individual pixels anyway. 1920x1080 on 5.5" (401 PPI; e.g. the Apple iPhone 6 Plus) is already dense enough for individual pixels to be not discerned at normal viewing distances. So, going beyond 1920x1080 would only needlessly reduce battery duration, slow down the system, add heat, add cost, and perhaps add weight. I agree it's just a marketing gimmick.

[erik]

So you are okay with the 5-row keyboard?

for web surfing and on-site work when long battery life are needed, the 6-row is fine.   if i need to work in CAD or any number of adobe apps that warrant the need for a traditional 7-row then i'll use something else.

on a side note, lenovo considers the 5-row layout as the one with the OLED hybrid Fn key row.   all others are either 6-row or 7-row.   i've never heard the X1C keyboard referred to as a 5-row.   function keys are considered a row, unless of course i missed a design meeting somewhere.

[pianowizard]

on a side note, lenovo considers the 5-row layout as the one with the OLED hybrid Fn key row.   all others are either 6-row or 7-row.   i've never heard the X1C keyboard referred to as a 5-row.   function keys are considered a row, unless of course i missed a design meeting somewhere.

Sounds like you haven't seen the current X1C in photos or in person. The function keys have been replaced with a touch-sensitive strip: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic. ... &t=1230279 . Is this the "OLED hybrid Fn key row" you referred to?

Considering that you weren't aware of such a major change, let me ask you again: Are you sure there have been only two generations of the X1 Carbon? Perhaps you aren't as up to date as you thought!

[BillMorrow]

not had time to read all the remarks above..
yet..
will get to them later..

for now, I had a deal with a UC Beserkeley student to take his X1 carbon touch with the 2560 x 1440 resolution display to ray who would vet it and then I would paypal the $$ to his, the seller..
BUT he seems to have had something else come up so i'll need to go elsewhere..

still, from what I have read the X1 carbon touch version 2 seems to be really neat..
i'll find one with the right specs and then be able to compare it to the legacy thinkpads..
FWIW from recent experience with these Chiclet keyboards i'm not so impressed..
the true/blue thinkpad keyboards I recently got from Lenovo are just dandy..
using one right now and my error rate as half..

perhaps i'll (again) sell off my 701C collection to pay for an X1..

[rkawakami]

the true/blue thinkpad keyboards I recently got from Lenovo are just dandy..
using one right now and my error rate as half..

[BillMorrow]

using one right now and my error rate as half..

and this is the brain/hand interface showing GIGO aka FIFO changed to FIST..
now we all should know FIFO (First In First Out) and GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) but FIST was first used at the homebrew computer club meeting at SLAC auditorium while discussing I/O standards..

FIST, for those of you who were NOT in attendance at that meeting, means: First In Still There..
touche' to you, ray..!

[erik]

Sounds like you haven't seen the current X1C in photos or in person. The function keys have been replaced with a touch-sensitive strip: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic. ... &t=1230279 . Is this the "OLED hybrid Fn key row" you referred to?

Considering that you weren't aware of such a major change, let me ask you again: Are you sure there have been only two generations of the X1 Carbon? Perhaps you aren't as up to date as you thought!

the "touch-sensitive strip" is an OLED hybrid Fn key row as i mentioned above.   i'm fully aware of the major change and played with the adaptive keyboard back in 2012 while still in the development stage.

lenovo's sales page only shows "2nd generation" to back up my point above on generation nomenclature.   nowhere do they mention "3rd generation" that i can find, including the PSREF sheets.
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/th ... x1-carbon/
http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/tabook.pdf

instead it's just called "new," hence why i never called the current model a 3rd gen (nor did i argue against it).   i've only talked about the original X1C in my posts above as the one i recommend.

regardless of what someone wants to call them, all i care about are the versions with 6-row layouts and physical mouse buttons on the trackpoint.   those are the original X1C and X1CT models.

[BillMorrow]

well, I ordered an X1 carbon touch from the outlet site..
which seems to be a bit mercurial in that the stock is hard to pin down..
BUT the more I read about these X1's the more interested I am to actually see one in the flesh/plastic/carbon fiber or whatever..
this dynamic function key strip sounds like one of those yamato attempts at originality..
which will either work out or not.. time will tell..

since I am a terrible typer the chicklet's and dynamic strip will be as interesting to me as it is disturbing to touch typists..

the dynamic strip sure sounds like it could be fun but my first thought is "HUH..!?"
I mean, come on.. a touch typists with a keyboard that changes while being typed upon..?
well, i'll keep additional thoughts to myself until I get to play with it..

all of which engenders speculation that if there is a more standard keyboard on earlier models of the X1 maybe the non-standard one can be swapped..?

meanwhile, since the X1 that is coming has win7 on it does anyone have a win8 recovery CD for the X1 I could beg, borrow, buy or steal..?

[pianowizard]

the "touch-sensitive strip" is an OLED hybrid Fn key row as i mentioned above.   i'm fully aware of the major change and played with the adaptive keyboard back in 2012 while still in the development stage.

And yet you wrote this on Oct 18th:

"i've never heard the X1C keyboard referred to as a 5-row. function keys are considered a row, unless of course i missed a design meeting somewhere."

Sounds like you did miss a design meeting somewhere!

regardless of what someone wants to call them, all i care about are the versions with 6-row layouts and physical mouse buttons on the trackpoint. those are the original X1C and X1CT models.

The only reason I joined this thread was to warn Bill about the current-gen X1C's lousy 1600x900 screen. Then, I remembered its 5-row keyboard, so I warned him about that too. I don't really care whether the current generation is 2nd or 3rd. I wanted clarification about the terminology only because indotoonster asked about it above.

[erik]

all of which engenders speculation that if there is a more standard keyboard on earlier models of the X1 maybe the non-standard one can be swapped..?

sadly, no.   the BIOS controls the keyboard layout and function.   swapping only the keyboard isn't enough.   trust me, there were engineers at lenovo RTP who tried the very thing you suggest, only to realize it would require intervention from the BIOS team to make fully functional.   if it were easy then you'd see an X230 with the X220 keyboard.

the OLED strip might be here to stay.   i don't agree with it but it's the shiniest new gadget on the block right now.   wacom tried it on their intuos tablets and went back to standard keys.   perhaps lenovo will have the same outcome and go back to physical keys.

And yet you wrote this on Oct 18th:

"i've never heard the X1C keyboard referred to as a 5-row. function keys are considered a row, unless of course i missed a design meeting somewhere."

Sounds like you did miss a design meeting somewhere!

what i said is a true statement.   i have yet to hear anyone at lenovo refer to it as a 5-row.   it's always been called the "adaptive keyboard" internally and is referred to as that in the PSREFs.   unless i've missed something obvious, nothing i said here is incorrect.

i hate to argue over semantics and respectfully bow out.

[pianowizard]

what i said is a true statement.   i have yet to hear anyone at lenovo refer to it as a 5-row.   it's always been called the "adaptive keyboard" internally and is referred to as that in the PSREFs.   i fail to see how what i said is incorrect.

You again contradicted yourself, because you wrote this: "on a side note, lenovo considers the 5-row layout as the one with the OLED hybrid Fn key row."

i hate to argue over semantics and respectfully bow out.

I have been just pointing out your self-contradictions, contradictions that you weren't aware of. Of course, I bet you will now say Lenovo *considers* it 5-row, but doesn't *call* it 5-row. You are the one arguing over semantics!

[erik]

You again contradicted yourself, because you wrote this: "on a side note, lenovo considers the 5-row layout as the one with the OLED hybrid Fn key row."

no, i was referring to what you called 5-row and responded with brevity.   nowhere did i say lenovo called it as such, i was only pointing it out for reference.   misinterpreting my statement doesn't make it incorrect.   the OLED hybrid row is still a row per the human factors engineers.

I have been just pointing out your self-contradictions, contradictions that you weren't aware of. Of course, I bet you will now say Lenovo *considers* it 5-row, but doesn't *call* it 5-row. You are the one arguing over semantics!

haha... you're dissecting my words into minutia and telling me i can't refute your arguments based on semantics.   makes perfect sense.

i'm not arguing anything here, only clarifying what i said since it was misinterpreted.

[pianowizard]

no, i was referring to what you called 5-row.   nowhere did i say lenovo called it as such.   misinterpreting my statement doesn't make it incorrect.

haha... you're dissecting my words into minutia and telling me i can't refute your arguments based on semantics.   makes perfect sense.

Please don't get upset about this. I am dissecting your words not to win any argument, but to make sure we are talking about the same X1C model. How many times have we seen people argue over whether a certain Thinkpad has good screen, or good keyboard, etc., only to realize that they've been talking about different models, or sizes, or generations.

I will do a little more "dissecting" below, because I want to know whether we are on the same page, not because I want to win an argument:

display notwithstanding, with the latest ones missing the physical trackpoint scroll button i wouldn't recommend it for that reason alone. the 6-row keyboard is usable but the lack of proper trackpoint system kills it.

In the above quote, you referred to the "latest" X1C as having a 6-row keyboard. Were you talking about the adaptive keyboard? Or, perhaps the latest X1C that you've seen is actually the previous generation? Yet another possibility is that the X1C I saw last month was the previous generation.

on a side note, lenovo considers the 5-row layout as the one with the OLED hybrid Fn key row. all others are either 6-row or 7-row.

The X1C I saw did have the OLED Fn key row, which Lenovo doesn't consider to be 6-row or 7-row. Yet, you referred to it as 6-row. I hope you now see how you confused me.

[erik]

The X1C I saw did have the OLED Fn key row, which Lenovo doesn't consider to be 6-row or 7-row. Yet, you referred to it as 6-row. I hope you now see how you confused me.

the human factors engineers still consider that a row.   perhaps that's where i became confused in this discussion.   it's still considered a 6-row layout but more appropriately called an adaptive keyboard since the 6th row can adapt to the application in use.   i've never heard it called a 5-row until this thread.   i was simply saying that what's being referenced here as a 5-row is what lenovo calls the OLED layout.

smartphones have 5-row layouts as they lack a 6th (Fn) row entirely.   notebooks still have 6 rows despite the top row being a different type of key input.

[pianowizard]

Great, I finally know for sure that the particular X1C I saw last month was indeed the latest incarnation of this model. Now I can confidently tell people that the current X1C's 1600x900 is lousy, and that it has an adaptive keyboard. In retrospect, I could have dramatically shortened this protracted discussion by showing you a photo of that X1C and asking "is this the current generation or the previous generation".

i've never heard it called a 5-row until this thread. i was simply saying that what's being referenced here as a 5-row is what lenovo calls the OLED layout.

Just now I was Googling up "5 row keyboard Thinkpad" to find examples of other people calling this a 5-row. I found a dozen or so web sites, and also this:

http://www.lenovo.com/shop/americas/con ... _ug_en.pdf

Turn to page 13 and be surprised: Lenovo describes the adaptive keyboard as "5-row keyboard with backlight function"!

Also, 10 times in the tabook in the X1 Carbon section: http://www.lenovo.com/psref/pdf/tabook_WE.pdf

I am glad to see that Lenovo does admit this keyboard has only 5 key rows. Pretending it has 6 would be dishonest.