When did Thinkpad keyboards start having self-contained Trackpoint modules?

[axur-delmeria]

My personal experience with Thinkpads skips a lot of generations, so there are large gaps in my knowledge.

When I dismantled the keyboard in my 760XD, I discovered that the Trackpoint module is composed of the pointing stick, a bare PCB, and a flexible film cable. This meant that all the electronics were in the system board.

On a T42 keyboard, the Trackpoint module can be excised from the keyboard and used as a stand-alone PS/2 pointing device. Other have done this, if I remember correctly.

My question is, on which Thinkpad models did this integration begin?

I'm asking this because I'm thinking of grabbing an old Thinkpad (subnotebook size, between 10.4-13.3 inch screen) and stuffing a Raspberry Pi 2 inside. It would be nice to have a Trackpoint that's almost up and running (I can use a USB to PS/2 adapter to check if it works), leaving only the keyboard matrix to worry about.

[automobus]

I believe, ThinkPad 760 contains TrackPoint III, all TrackPoint III use interface ribbon separate from keyboard. Interface cable integration happened during TrackPoint IV career.

Year 2000 new ThinkPad series lineup all use single ribbon cable. I know that, as recently as 1998 November, TrackPoint used separate ribbon.

So, cable was integrated sometime between 1998-10 and 2000-05. One might look at illustrations in HMM to find a better answer.

[Norway Pad]

I'm asking this because I'm thinking of grabbing an old Thinkpad (subnotebook size, between 10.4-13.3 inch screen) and stuffing a Raspberry Pi 2 inside.

Be aware that if you ever manage to create some interface between a legacy Thinkpad keyboard and a standard port, be it USB or PS/2, this opens up for possibilities along the lines that I brought up in a different thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=117065 So feel free to keep us posted on this one, I would sure be interested in something like this. An older case, 760 or even 770 sized, are so big they could probably contain a Raspberry Pi 2 and all necessary interface devices, an USB hub, etc, without even needing to modify the case. I don't know how you solve the connection to the LCD, but standard LCD interfaces for the Pi might already exist.

[axur-delmeria]

I don't know how you solve the connection to the LCD, but standard LCD interfaces for the Pi might already exist.

One idea is to use those kits that allow you to convert laptop LCD panels into stand-alone monitors. One with a DVI or HDMI input will work.

There are also HDMI-to-LVDS converters expressly designed for the RPi and similar single-board computers, so I'm not too worried except for the price.

An older case, 760 or even 770 sized, are so big they could probably contain a Raspberry Pi 2 and all necessary interface devices, an USB hub, etc

I realized this as well. Unfortunately I threw away my 760XD a long time ago.
I remember it to be quite heavy (6+ lbs maybe?). It would be much lighter after gutting the interior, but it might be top-heavy (likely to tip over) due to the lid (I think it was made from aluminum plate).

There's a Thinkpad 240 locally available for less than 20 USD. Apparently it's still working, but I don't know if I can live with a 10.4" 800x600 screen. Also, I'm not sure if the Trackpoint is fully integrated or not.

On the other hand, is a 9.7-inch 4:3 aspect ratio screen close enough in size? I remember that the iPad 1 had a 9.7" 1024 x 768 panel, while the one for the iPad 3 was the same size but 2048x1536 resolution. Also, the iPad 3 panel is eDP (embedded DisplayPort)-- which might open up a number of connection possibilities.

Be aware that if you ever manage to create some interface between a legacy Thinkpad keyboard and a standard port, be it USB or PS/2,

The only success I've heard about would be this: http://hackaday.com/2014/04/30/using-a- ... -over-usb/ and I don't have anywhere near the knowledge and resources he has (for now).

I believe, ThinkPad 760 contains TrackPoint III, all TrackPoint III use interface ribbon separate from keyboard. Interface cable integration happened during TrackPoint IV career.

Thinkwiki.org lists the 240 series as having the Trackpoint IV, but I'm still not sure if it's integrated. Maybe I should try looking an X20 series for the middle Trackpoint button.

~
I should start searching for more Thinkpad schematics. My current collection is quite meager.

[Norway Pad]

I did some searching too, and it seems like there might be solutions already available for connecting a LCD to the Pi. Lets hope they work on the older 760 / 770 / 600 era LCDs too.

The keyboard interface solution you linked to is interesting. That's the way it's done; I didn't know. This solution seems to have it's shortcomings, though, particularly if the typing speed is affected too much. But it's sure better than nothing. We just lack someone who can apply it to a legacy keyboard.

If I had a dead 770 I would gut it and start looking into component positioning. HDD, the Pi, wiring to USB/HDMI/Power ports on the shell and so on. A metal plate on the bottom of the case, which all the components can be installed onto, would probably balance the laptop weight-wise. However, as I lack any programming and reverse engineering skills, I have to wait for experts like you to do the keyboard part.

I got all exited here, too bad it's spring. I could use another winter with cold and darkness outside so I could work inside with this project.

[axur-delmeria]

Someone else beat me to the 240. :<

The next oldest I can find is an X41, but that's still more or less usable as a laptop.

This project is on hold till I find a suitable Thinkpad. In the meantime I'll grab an RPi 2 and get to know it better.

[Norway Pad]

That's too bad.. I have similar luck with my attempt to find a defective 770 here in Norway. I will let my ad stay for a couple of weeks, but I suspect I will eventually need to get one from the US. Which will make it a heck of an expensive defective laptop.

Anyway, I will probably follow the same route as you and buy the actual Pi 2 first. I might drop you an PM when I sometime get the Pi up and going, feel free to share any experiences from your side on this project too. Good luck!

[RealBlackStuff]

Before you 'invest' in a Raspberry Pi, take a look at some alternatives:
http://www.zdnet.com/pictures/ten-raspb ... atives/10/

[axur-delmeria]

RealBlackStuff,

Interesting choices. The Intel dev kit looks nice but way over budget. :<

Looks like it's RPi 2 vs Odroid C1; still leaning more towards RPi 2 though.

Regarding a donor Thinkpad, it all boils down to local availability. Current options:

a. One of my client's relatives has a banged-up 560E. Maybe I can ask for/buy it. but the Trackpoint is definitely not integrated. (bad choice)

b. Thinkpad X100e. I suspect there's quite a few dead ones lying around. (solder failure due to overheating AMD CPU and northbridge) Not a classic/ancient Thinkpad, but I'll take what I can get.

c. hunt down an X20 series Thinkpad, hoping that the Trackpoint is fully integrated; no idea if I can find one.

[Norway Pad]

Yes, some interesting input. I see that the "Arduino Micro", mentioned in the article about the T60 keyboard, is in fact a small computer on it's own. In my eyes the criteria must me as many "relevant" ports as possible, to be used for interfacing with necessary components in the case (Primary keyboard and LCD) and for extending to external ports in the case. Plus that the type of single board computers that is most common and most widespread in use, will automatically have the most solutions already worked out for it. Which is important for me, who must rely on implementing and installing solutions/interfaces that are already available. I see the keyboard interface as the most important factor, and the possible missing part that can in the end prevent this from working.

The search for a 770 case continues.

[axur-delmeria]

An alternative is to actually implement the Trackpoint link (basically replicate a PS/2 mouse port) and the keyboard controller on the Raspberry Pi 2 itself. :O
We may be getting way over our heads though.

Norway Pad, I'm going to try to dissuade to from using the 770X as the base.

If it's similar to the 760XD I had before (and it's highly likely), the Trackpoint module on the keyboard is just the bare strain gauge/pressure sensor, which means you have to implement the entire Trackpoint controller from scratch, not just a mere PS/2 mouse link. I can't imagine how difficult it would be.

[Norway Pad]

Ok, that's a good point to keep in mind. Worst case I could do without the Trackpoint, but then there would be no way to control the pointer without bringing an external USB mouse. Which is kind of dumb if I put all that effort into this and end up getting the rest working.

Another approach would be to build a newer keyboard into the case instead of the original keyboard. But then I would loose the original keyboard, which is half the point of keeping the original legacy case.

Lots of things to consider. But nothing is bought yet, so I have the time to look into it still. Luckily I have examples of almost every major Thinkpad model line, so I can get measurements for size easily.

[axur-delmeria]

Hmm, further research has revealed that others have played around with PS/2 Trackpoint modules, incorporating them into custom keyboards.

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/conn ... t9772.html

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55 ... msg1291412

They're using Teensy 2 microcontroller boards. It looks nice, but has no local distributor for my country. Shipping and taxes will might make it more expensive than an RPi 2.

Challenges left:
1. Determining the topology of the key matrix of the Thinkpad keyboard.
2. Finding a compatible connector, or somehow connect it to the Teensy/microcontroller without damaging the cable.


Also, RPi 2 is out of stock in both RS and element14 in my country.

I'm leaning towards that X20 I found. IMO a 240 would have been perfect since it's similar to a netbook in size, but a 12-incher isn't too bad.

[crashnburn]

Interesting experiments

[axur-delmeria]

I finally got my RPi2, put Raspbian on a 4GB MicroSD, but I've powered it up just once. The only HDMI device at home is a 29" LCD TV, and I'm not used to having a screen that big.

My ultimate goal is to put it inside an old Thinkpad's chassis; one step toward that is to make the RPi portable.

I. Screen
I've been researching various ways of connecting the RPi to a small screens, as well as which screens are suitable.

1. HDMI to parallel RGB --> Adafruit has one such circuit, and apparently the LCDs in ancient Thinkpads used parallel RGB signalling. OTOH who in their right mind would want to relive the days of atrocious viewing angles and dim screens?

2. HDMI to eDP --> the iPad 3's 9.7" QXGA screen is popular, pretty neat, and only slightly smaller than 10.4" screens of quite a few old Thinkpads, including the Thinkpad 240. Unfortunately I haven't found a converter yet.

3. HDMI to LVDS --> Chalkboard Electronics has two converters, one for single-link LVDS, and another for dual-link, allowing one to drive Full HD and QXGA screens. Unfortunately, it's for LED-backlit screens, and 4:3 LED screens are hard to find. Another issue is that I have to make my own LVDS cable.
But at least it runs at 5 volts only, simplifying the electrical system.
And I have a few working LED screens from dead laptops.

II. Donor Thinkpad
There's a barebone X31 locally available and cheap too (around 12 USD). It's actually too new for my taste (I'm targeting X24 and older) but if nothing shows up I'll take it. Better than nothing.

III. Keyboard and Trackpoint
Also, getting one that's too old will bring the Trackpoint issue I brought up in the beginning, unless...
I'm actually crazy enough to transplant a new trackpoint module on an old Thinkpad keyboard. Even crazier if I can rebuild the key matrix by making my own flexible circuit board http://www.instructables.com/id/Making- ... nter-or-c/.

But no, I'm not that crazy and I have to admit a lot of this is beyond me. Everything will be a learning experience, and I don't even know if I'll succeed or not. I have yet to buy a Teensy 2.0++ dev board.

Then again, learning how to make flex cables can help a lot with the LCD's LVDS cable.

IV. Component placement (or, Laptop vs Dock)
The problem with the RPi2 is that its double-stack USB ports make it too tall to fit inside the chassis of most X series Thinkpads, and because of that, a major compromise must be made: it's highly likely that the RPi won't be housed inside the chassis, but on a separate box, and connected via HDMI and USB cables. It's similar to to the RPi + Atrix Lapdock combo, so if this project succeeds, it might end up being called "RPi ThinkDock"

~~
Dear Moderators, I now ask that this topic thread be renamed to "Raspberry Pi 2 Laptop/Dock using an old Thinkpad chassis" and be moved to the Off-Topic section.

[Norway Pad]

I got my Pi2 a couple of weeks ago, and booted it up with Raspbian on a 16GB card. But I have a different approach than you in some of the other aspects. I won't say too much about it yet though, to save myself the embarrassment of going public with big plans that turns out to not work out. So I will post here or even start a new thread about the project as soon as I see some progress.

Maybe be will make our own Retrothinkpads before the official one comes out? #homemaderetrothinkpad

Good luck!

[axur-delmeria]

I might be able to get a battered Thinkpad 560E tomorrow for free.

The idea is to get as many old Thinkpads as I can (for the least amount of cash) to gain more first-hand knowledge about these awesome machines.

Dang, I still miss my 760XD.

~~

I'm playing with Raspbian a bit, updated it to Jessie (still in testing), but bummed when I found out that it doesn't have a version of mpv (my preferred media player program) that can use the RPi's hardware video decoder.

Now I don't know whether to jump to Arch (which has the latest version), or go back to Raspbian Wheezy and try omxplayer. Strangely enough, Raspbian Wheezy defaults to Gnome-mplayer (which doesn't have hardware decode support) instead of omxplayer.

[axur-delmeria]

OMG, the 560E doesn't look that battered after all, even though:

1. the screen is dead because they kept it at too hot a place (the empty space between the corrugated iron roof and a wooden ceiling) for more than a year
2. Error 161 and 163 (dead CMOS battery)
3. latch has broken off,
4. trackpoint jumps to the left or right after a few minutes
5. HDD is clicking (probably dead)
6. main battery is dead

The keyboard itself looks good, even though it's Japanese. The keyboard and trackpoint have separate flex cables, so it may be possible to transplant a trackpoint module from a newer thinkpad keyboard!

Pics tomorrow!

[axur-delmeria]

Pictures at https://www.flickr.com/photos/axur-delm ... 3123381413

Things I noticed:

- It's almost as wide as my X220
- full-sized keyboard, around the size of a T4x KB
- key travel is longer than a T4x keyboard's

Despite having a 12.1" 4:3 screen, the extra space on the right (for the inverter and brightness control) means it may be possible to fit in an 11.6-inch widescreen LCD panel. The bezel needs to be modified though, unless a new bezel can be designed in CAD and fabricated with a 3D printer-- I don't have one though.