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Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

Windows 10 on Lenovo hardware
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bit_twiddler
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#61 Post by bit_twiddler » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:53 pm

I just got back from goofing off at the local Best Buy where they had W10 loaded on some PCs...

Honestly, I don't care for it. W7 was the best desktop known to man (and this is coming from
someone who uses Unix/Linux for a living.) Does anybody know how to get rid of the Metro junk
that shows up when you click on the start button? There must be an add-on.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#62 Post by precip9 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:04 pm

There's a remark further up the thread that one of the 3rd party start menu replacements is now w10 compatible.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#63 Post by Norway Pad » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:14 pm

Stardocks Start10. https://www.stardock.com/products/start10/

I have used Stardocks' Start8 with Win8/8.1 since the first time I installed it, always worked just fine.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#64 Post by kony » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:02 am

Qing Dao wrote:
Yes, but it is cheaper to just buy one with Windows installed and then install Linux on it. It used to be that you could get their computers, at least some of them, cheaper without Windows, but it hasn't been that way for over 5 years.
I bought my T430 in a retail store without OS 1.5 years ago.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#65 Post by blank001 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:46 pm

I do some mild modern gaming (most of my gaming is retro). There may be some DX12 titles that temp me to join facebook , I mean google, I mean microsoft's system. That's just for gaming though. I would never ever do actual personal computing on proprietary operating systems. That is quite foolish in 2015 for obvious privacy reasons.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#66 Post by ThinkPad560X » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:49 am

So almost everyday I read about windows 10 articles to see what new happend so far since I'm not in the Windows 10 OS world still, and all of them including today is about Windows 10 spying on you http://boingboing.net/2015/08/03/window ... ylogg.html So I'm looking to the Linux today and want to know witch version is the almost identical to Windows XP/7? I read to that Windows 10 by default if YOU do not select custom and turn off some tabs it will let, enable all data collecting and watching of you. For me I still think Microsoft has something planned for later. Tying to get this version of windows out to the masses for free and miss out on all that money just from the software sales, plus this is their very first Windows release that is Free, but the price maybe your privacy.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#67 Post by kony » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:25 am

ThinkPad560X wrote:So almost everyday I read about windows 10 articles to see what new happend so far since I'm not in the Windows 10 OS world still, and all of them including today is about Windows 10 spying on you http://boingboing.net/2015/08/03/window ... ylogg.html So I'm looking to the Linux today and want to know witch version is the almost identical to Windows XP/7? I read to that Windows 10 by default if YOU do not select custom and turn off some tabs it will let, enable all data collecting and watching of you. For me I still think Microsoft has something planned for later. Tying to get this version of windows out to the masses for free and miss out on all that money just from the software sales, plus this is their very first Windows release that is Free, but the price maybe your privacy.
There are some distros trying to look like XP (including the look of start menu etc), but I would rather recommend you one of the more mainstream distributions. They are not difficult to use and you don't have to know how to use a console or install anything (beyond GPU/wifi drivers perhaps). I'd recommend Linux Mint 17. KDE if you want it to look more like a Windows by default, but MATE if you want it to as beginner-friendly as it can get (I recommend MATE). Don't bother with Cinnamon as it's a new GE and prone to bugs, and Xfce, which is almost no longer supported.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#68 Post by pianowizard » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:22 am

ThinkPad560X wrote:For me I still think Microsoft has something planned for later.
Indeed. In the past couple years, Microsoft said a lot about creating "an OS that rules them all", that is, the same version of Windows that works on traditional PCs, tablets and smartphones, and that synchronizes data across these devices. Windows 10 is this OS. Thus, Windows 10 not only runs like a desktop OS on a mobile device, but also runs like a mobile OS on a desktop/laptop, including the collection of information from the user. This is to facilitate the synchronization of data (e.g. calendar entries) across devices, help the device learn how to interact with you, ensure apps are updated frequently, help apps and search engines get information relevant to the user's location, etc. etc.

Like I have said several times already since the launch of Windows 10, if you ever use a smartphone or tablet, you have already been sharing at least this much information, 24/7. Using Windows 10 without turning off data sharing is equivalent to owning an additional smartphone/tablet. Is it really that frightening?
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#69 Post by coolcat37 » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:56 am

kony wrote:
ThinkPad560X wrote:So almost everyday I read about windows 10 articles to see what new happend so far since I'm not in the Windows 10 OS world still, and all of them including today is about Windows 10 spying on you http://boingboing.net/2015/08/03/window ... ylogg.html So I'm looking to the Linux today and want to know witch version is the almost identical to Windows XP/7? I read to that Windows 10 by default if YOU do not select custom and turn off some tabs it will let, enable all data collecting and watching of you. For me I still think Microsoft has something planned for later. Tying to get this version of windows out to the masses for free and miss out on all that money just from the software sales, plus this is their very first Windows release that is Free, but the price maybe your privacy.
There are some distros trying to look like XP (including the look of start menu etc), but I would rather recommend you one of the more mainstream distributions. They are not difficult to use and you don't have to know how to use a console or install anything (beyond GPU/wifi drivers perhaps). I'd recommend Linux Mint 17. KDE if you want it to look more like a Windows by default, but MATE if you want it to as beginner-friendly as it can get (I recommend MATE). Don't bother with Cinnamon as it's a new GE and prone to bugs, and Xfce, which is almost no longer supported.
Yes Mint 17.2 MATE is the way to go. So customizable and 10x better as anything Microsoft has released. Very sweet and friendly distro

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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#70 Post by UMPC2024 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:27 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... eboot-loop

Here's why I don't care for Windows 10. This wouldn't happen with the Windows Insider Program, they said.

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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#71 Post by ajkula66 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:33 pm

UMPC2024 wrote: This wouldn't happen with the Windows Insider Program, they said.
Not for nothing, but has anyone in their right mind actually believed them?
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#72 Post by precip9 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:34 pm

There is an old, dark joke that goes like this: A pioneer is someone with an arrow in his back.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#73 Post by Kilkenny » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:41 pm

UMPC2024 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... eboot-loop

Here's why I don't care for Windows 10. This wouldn't happen with the Windows Insider Program, they said.
This is why mandatory automatic updates are such a bad idea.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#74 Post by Temetka » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:48 pm

Well for work reasons I had to install Windows again, so I went with Windows 10 Enterprise for a number of reasons:

1. I get it for free and 500 additional licenses. No you may not have one.
2. Shiny! :mrgreen:
3. In Enterprise I can turn off almost all the anti-privacy junk
4. I have better control over my updates

To be honest, I really like Windows 10. I love Cortana. If only she wasn't so invasive I'd use her more. I love the new start menu. I love how quick my T410 runs. I actually like the new Edge browser. I love being able to search the web or my PC from a single button.

I dislike being tracked, spied on, etc. I dislike that I can't change the color of my window borders. I dislike having a settings and control panel (I know why they exist, but I don't like it).

So even though I am dual booting Linux and Windows 10, I have to say this is shaping up to be one heckuva OS and look forward to the ride. Heck I'm even looking at getting one of those 8" Dell Tablets that run Windows.

BTW - Head over to MVPS.org and get the hosts file and install it. It's not specific to Windows 10, but will enhance your security.

Also - although I haven't used Stardock's programs in years, I do have to say that Start10 looks pretty tempting for $5.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#75 Post by Temetka » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:50 pm

Kilkenny wrote:
UMPC2024 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... eboot-loop

Here's why I don't care for Windows 10. This wouldn't happen with the Windows Insider Program, they said.
This is why mandatory automatic updates are such a bad idea.
Oh sure, let the masses defer security updates forever. That way we have millions of insecure PC's just waiting to join a botnet - or worse.

I'm torn on this subject. As a security guy I love it. As a privacy and freedom of choice advocate I don't like it.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#76 Post by Kilkenny » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:57 pm

Temetka wrote: Oh sure, let the masses defer security updates forever. That way we have millions of insecure PC's just waiting to join a botnet - or worse.

I'm torn on this subject. As a security guy I love it. As a privacy and freedom of choice advocate I don't like it.
Meh, people will always find a way to get owned anyway. The headaches of dealing with mandatory updates breaking your system are far worse than the risk of simply allowing people to turn them off. I don't see what was so wrong with Windows 7's method: tell the user the benefits of automatic updates and warn about the dangers of turning them off, but allow a choice either way.
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I wouldn't touch "10" with a 10 foot pole!

#77 Post by precip9 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:17 pm

Temetka wrote: I'm torn on this subject. As a security guy I love it. As a privacy and freedom of choice advocate I don't like it.
It's not just a philosophical issue about the rights of man. It also means that Microsoft can break your programs, and you can't stop it. Maybe it won't break the programs millions of people use. But if you use programs with small user bases, on the order of 50,000, it could happen. It happened recently with Corel Painter 2015. The solution was at hand: back off the update. With Windows 10, it's not an option for home users, and only a temporary (8 month window) for pro users. What if I want to continue to use my perfectly function "big, complicated programs" that are a few years old? Why should I lose that for glitz, along with the privacy?

One notable thing about the number 10: I wouldn't touch Windows 10 with a 10 foot pole.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#78 Post by precip9 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:29 pm

Temetka wrote:Well for work reasons I had to install Windows again, so I went with Windows 10 Enterprise for a number of reasons:
[snip]
3. In Enterprise I can turn off almost all the anti-privacy junk
Some detail on what you can't turn off would be appreciated.

Perhaps, in response to the privacy/updates furor, Microsoft will some time in the future make the Enterprise edition available as a buyable item. Knowing what can't be turned off would be crucial to the decision to buy it.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#79 Post by ThinkPad560X » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:52 am

Is their a Windows Classic theme for Windows 10? I'm using Windows 10 Pro Insider "preview" on my demo ThinkPad R61i. I go under settings and see Windows Classic theme, once I click it, it just brings me to the current theme and then shows the High contrast themes, No Windows Classic. Last saw in Windows 7. This is excatly how I want my Windows classic to be, basicly Windows 95-2000. http://lserv.deg.gubkin.ru/guis/wxpclassic.png

I don't know why Microsoft will not just give people what they want, the basic Windows Classic theme. For me I just want a basic desktop and not the flashy new desktop look. If Microsoft wants people to have the New desktop look, set it as the defult and let me and other select classic for "My Windows I remember" A slogan in one of their Windows release photos.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#80 Post by Temetka » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:47 pm

To answer you question: No classic theme in Windows 10.

That being said, I'm pretty sure Stardock has a skin thing that should work for you:

http://www.stardock.com/products/
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#81 Post by ThinkPad560X » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:24 am

Heres a question I wanted to ask and even seen in this comment on page: http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft- ... indows-10/ What happens if and when I upgrade my Motherboard, It's obvious that the key is entered into your bois in the motherboard, atleast thats what I found out when fixing Windows 8/8.1 PC, I was woundering why none of them had a Product key. I even checked under the battery like Lenovo moved them to on the new ThinkPads. But for Windows 10 it is saying Microsoft has your system board specs copied to their servers with a generated Product Key for that PC. So if you did the Free upgrade then that means you can't upgrade your motherboard without buying a new key. As for me I'm still waiting for a answer from Microsoft if they are releasing the retail DVDs or no DVD version anymore with a Key. From what they told me, Only USB Flash drives are being sold or use the create tool to make a iso DVD or bootable Flash Drive, then buy a key online.

This is old: http://bgr.com/2015/07/13/windows-10-re ... -disk-usb/

This don't say much but coming soon: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/windows-10- ... Id=4302500

I'll probably check a bestbuy in september to see, by then everything should be out.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#82 Post by ThinkPad560X » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:23 am

Windows 10 is automatic downloaded to Windows 7 and Windows 8/8.1 systems without you even selecting reserve now?
http://gizmodo.com/windows-10-is-being- ... 1730183295

So does this mean, Windows 10 will be free entirely for Windows 7, 8/8.1 users?
This doesn't make sence if you don't want windows 10. I also read the Microsoft is installing the spyware that comes on 10 into 7 and 8/8.1. So they are giving you no choice but to upgrade to 10 no matter what, next thing you know, you'll turn on your Windows 7,8/8.1 pc and it will be auto installing Windows 10.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#83 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:29 am

@ThinkPad560X:
How about reading http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=118819 (posted on August 24/2015)
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#84 Post by pjk » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:56 am

pianowizard wrote:...but professionals would rather not waste any time adapting to a new user interface.
That's not the problem, really. Regarding the UI in particular, the problem is that the new UI sucks, and is far less productive than the old UI for a plethora of well-known reasons which many UI experts agree-upon.

For example, it is downright mind-boggling to me that after 3 years of Windows 8.x, Microsoft still hasn't ported a huge amount of critically-important functionality out of the "old" UI tools (eg from Control Panel to Settings), requiring users to constantly bounce back/forth between different UI paradigms and tools just to manage the machine. People laughed and shook their heads about this 3 years ago, but after 8.1 and now 10 they still don't have this right??

Re: the Start Menu, Microsoft finally figured out that people hated what they did in 8.x, but what they gave us in 10 is a shadow of the functionality that Win7 has, it's crippled. If they were so worried about saving face over that horrible and extremely unpopular UI choice in 8.x, there was a simple solution: have a configurable option to have the old-style Start Menu if you wanted, just like they did in XP which had an option to have a "Windows-2000-style" Start Menu.

But no - they gave us this unproductive, inflexible, space-wasting junk. I can go on and on..

precip9 wrote:W8.1 starts up a little faster, but, according to my tests on an X61s, resumes from hibernate slower than W7. On the other hand, it hibernates faster than W7, because it writes less.
And I'm not a huge fan of some of the tradeoffs done to accomplish that, including "hybrid shutdown" which doesn't actually properly shutdown the OS in the traditional way, which is why I created a desktop icon to fully shutdown my 8.x/10 machine the "right" way.


(More later, forum kept going offline while I was trying to post this...)
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Short rant

#85 Post by SurrealMustard » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:05 am

I may take a lot of flack for this from the politically correct crowd, but I'm going to chance it anyway:

Windows 10 sucks. Not just a little - it is the worst thing Microsoft has ever put out. Their asking price of "free" is $200 too much. They basically took Windows 8, made it super fugly, and said "new operating system!". Everything about it is awful, and that's coming from someone who didn't mind Windows 8 that much (except for the lack of glass). The theme is like an appalling look straight into Microsoft's butthole - everything about it is horrifically bad in every way; it's not just plain old regular bad with some redeeming qualities like Windows 8, it's just stupendously and irreparably bad. The start menu and iconography are painfully terrible too and represent some of the worst designs Microsoft has ever come up with; people may have complained about Windows 8's big start menu (which I actually kind of grew to like, although I am also a fan of the XP/Vista/7 style), but this is 10 times worse - it looks untidy, none of the animations are fluid, and it's just absolutely nauseating.

The media (and by extension, its sheep) may have already hailed Windows 10 as the next best thing, but that just goes to show that once people have made up their mind about something, they cannot be convinced otherwise. In fact, some days I think Windows 10 is just a big publicity stunt that Microsoft is doing to see how many people they can get to "switch" to and "like" 10 before revealing to the public that it was all just a big August fool's day joke and that they'll be rolling everyone back to the proper operating systems automatically in the near future.

Windows 10 is just so bad that it's hard to know what to criticize first and I can't even take it seriously. I keep thinking that it's just a bad dream because no respectable company would ever inflict something so awful on the world, but that just continues to not be the case. What did we do to deserve such a punishment? It's almost like when Microsoft transitioned from Vista to 7, where they made a few slight changes, tweaked the visuals a bit, and then said "new politically-correct operating system!" and then everybody liked it because that's what the media told them to do (even though Vista was perfectly fine as it was), but this is different because the new system truly is worse in almost every way and brings very few new features to the table. I know the term is overused, but Windows 10 truly is an epic fail in almost every way possible (except for publicity). It's unbelievable and has my pick for the "Worst recent computer operating system ever".

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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#86 Post by shawross » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:02 am

Microsoft's problem is IMHO they made Windows 7 so darn good. I know everyone won't agree but after the problems and flak they copped after Vista they nailed Windows 7. If you take most of the visual effects off 7 and keep it clean it flys. In 4 and 1/2 years it will be decision time then when support ends but I will still keep running it another 6 months after that anyway.
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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#87 Post by pianowizard » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:25 am

pjk wrote:For example, it is downright mind-boggling to me that after 3 years of Windows 8.x, Microsoft still hasn't ported a huge amount of critically-important functionality out of the "old" UI tools (eg from Control Panel to Settings), requiring users to constantly bounce back/forth between different UI paradigms and tools just to manage the machine. People laughed and shook their heads about this 3 years ago, but after 8.1 and now 10 they still don't have this right??
Have you heard of the Windows Master Control Panel AKA "god mode", which has been around since Vista: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_M ... l_shortcut

I hope the people who "laughed and shook their heads" weren't the "UI experts" that you mentioned. An expert should have known about the god mode.
pjk wrote:Re: the Start Menu, Microsoft finally figured out that people hated what they did in 8.x, but what they gave us in 10 is a shadow of the functionality that Win7 has, it's crippled. If they were so worried about saving face over that horrible and extremely unpopular UI choice in 8.x, there was a simple solution: have a configurable option to have the old-style Start Menu if you wanted, just like they did in XP which had an option to have a "Windows-2000-style" Start Menu.

But no - they gave us this unproductive, inflexible, space-wasting junk. I can go on and on..
Let me reiterate: It boils down to the user's ability to adapt to the new UI. Windows 7's Start Menu was more productive than DOS, but was far from optimal. People find it productive only because they have been using it since 1995. I adapted to 8's Metro Menu within a couple of minutes and productivity went up as a result. 10's new Start Menu was a further improvement.
SurrealMustard wrote:I may take a lot of flack for this from the politically correct crowd
On the contrary, there are many more Microsoft haters than lovers. Most people still think of Microsoft as the evil empire that it was in the late 1990s. By bashing anything Microsoft made, you make yourself more popular among these haters.
SurrealMustard wrote:They basically took Windows 8, made it super fugly, and said "new operating system!".
I agree that the changes are mostly just the user interface, plus the forced updates, privacy settings, Cortana, and Edge. To me, this is the best Windows UI ever. Super comfortable to use, and has a modern look. I have grown tired of the previous appearance, which hadn't changed much since Windows 95. The new Start Menu is the best part. The tiles are now perfectly sized, and no longer occupy the whole screen. The Settings Menu is also fantastic, but unfortunately we cannot use ALT + arrow to navigate.
SurrealMustard wrote:Everything about it is awful, and that's coming from someone who didn't mind Windows 8 that much (except for the lack of glass). The theme is like an appalling look straight into Microsoft's butthole - everything about it is horrifically bad in every way; it's not just plain old regular bad with some redeeming qualities like Windows 8, it's just stupendously and irreparably bad. The start menu and iconography are painfully terrible too and represent some of the worst designs Microsoft has ever come up with; people may have complained about Windows 8's big start menu (which I actually kind of grew to like, although I am also a fan of the XP/Vista/7 style), but this is 10 times worse - it looks untidy, none of the animations are fluid, and it's just absolutely nauseating.
You said "bad in every way", but you really have only described one way, namely, appearance. What other ways are bad?

Who cares about the animations in the Start Menu? Did you know you can delete all preinstalled icons, and even resize the entire Start Menu? Drag it taller, or narrower, whatever. I replaced all default icons with icons for the programs that I use most, and shrank the menu in half. There are no more silly and distracting animations.

Windows' default appearance is usually quite bad. For example, XP's default wallpaper was, to borrow your phrase, super fugly.
SurrealMustard wrote:The media (and by extension, its sheep) may have already hailed Windows 10 as the next best thing, but that just goes to show that once people have made up their mind about something, they cannot be convinced otherwise.
There is a lot of praise from the media, but also a lot of criticism about the privacy language in the EULA, and the forced updates. I actually have seen much more of the latter than the former. So, if everyone was really just blindly trusting the media, then almost nobody would be using Windows 10.

I like 10 not because I am the media's sheep. In fact, I was hugely disappointed by the most praised new feature, the Edge browser. I removed it from the Start Menu and the taskbar and will probably never touch it again. Another feature the media loves is Cortana, and I haven't tried it even once.
SurrealMustard wrote:this is different because the new system truly is worse in almost every way and brings very few new features to the table.
Again, "every way"?
shawross wrote:Microsoft's problem is IMHO they made Windows 7 so darn good. I know everyone won't agree but after the problems and flak they copped after Vista they nailed Windows 7. If you take most of the visual effects off 7 and keep it clean it flys.
I still don't understand 7's popularity. In my hands, it's substantially less stable than 2000, Vista and 8 (though better than XP). And visually, it looks pretty gross, definitely a major downgrade from Vista. That sign-in screen with the green tree branch is especially off-putting. Was it drawn by a three-year-old?

My dream OS would be Windows 8 with 10's UI, so I get 8's stability, security and speed, and 10's good-looking and user-friendly UI.
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response

#88 Post by SurrealMustard » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:13 am

pianowizard wrote:
pjk wrote:For example, it is downright mind-boggling to me that after 3 years of Windows 8.x, Microsoft still hasn't ported a huge amount of critically-important functionality out of the "old" UI tools (eg from Control Panel to Settings), requiring users to constantly bounce back/forth between different UI paradigms and tools just to manage the machine. People laughed and shook their heads about this 3 years ago, but after 8.1 and now 10 they still don't have this right??
Have you heard of the Windows Master Control Panel AKA "god mode", which has been around since Vista: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_M ... l_shortcut

I hope the people who "laughed and shook their heads" weren't the "UI experts" that you mentioned. An expert should have known about the god mode.
Even in 8, I always just used control panel and rarely ever touched "settings" unless I had to change the Time&Date screen background or one of the other few controls it retained exclusivity over. Does the Master Control Panel Shortcut feature provide access to those things?
pianowizard wrote: Let me reiterate: It boils down to the user's ability to adapt to the new UI. Windows 7's Start Menu was more productive than DOS, but was far from optimal. People find it productive only because they have been using it since 1995. I adapted to 8's Metro Menu within a couple of minutes and productivity went up as a result. 10's new Start Menu was a further improvement.
Really? I thought the start menu was one of 7's biggest improvements because it allows the search functionality to look for control panel items, which I have found particularly handy. 8 took a step back in this area because while you could still search for control panel items, you had to press an extra "settings" button to do so. 8.1 (aka 9) fixed this, but has a weird bug where it will usually highlight the first search result, (meaning you can just press "enter" and be on your way to whatever application or control panel utility you searched for) but sometimes does not, forcing you to press "down", then "enter". With 7, I could just type "mouse" and "Enter" in the start menu before it even finished searching, and it would pull up the mouse settings straight away. With 8, you have to wait for it to highlight "Mouse" after you're done typing before you press enter, or else you might be whisked away into the slow and annoying "search" app. That's probably my biggest complaint about the Windows 8 start menu. While I noticed that "recently used apps" was also missing, this didn't bother me because I never used that feature anyway on other versions of Windows.
pianowizard wrote: I agree that the changes are mostly just the user interface, plus the forced updates, privacy settings, Cortana, and Edge. To me, this is the best Windows UI ever. Super comfortable to use, and has a modern look. I have grown tired of the previous appearance, which hadn't changed much since Windows 95. The new Start Menu is the best part. The tiles are now perfectly sized, and no longer occupy the whole screen. The Settings Menu is also fantastic, but unfortunately we cannot use ALT + arrow to navigate.
pianowizard wrote: You said "bad in every way", but you really have only described one way, namely, appearance. What other ways are bad?
I couldn't even process it. It looks like somebody was coding one day and accidentally deleted the source code for the Window borders and buttons (which were already on shaky ground since Windows 8 RTM) and just said, "oh well, let me just throw some temporary generic "buttons" on here (so that the whole UI doesn't break) until the theme team can draw it again", and then promptly forgot that the theme team had been fired a couple years back. I mean, it's just solid white and looks terrible. It's hard to tell if it's a joke or not. It is by far the worst use of the DWM engine since what they did with Windows 8/9 RTM (the 8RP looked fantastic and then they did a complete "180" in the months that followed).

They even screwed up the tiles in the start menu. In 8/9, they were consistent, smooth, and fluidly animated. In 10, they are none of the above and lose any appeal they had. Sure, you can shrink it down to a single column, but even then, it still has the same search issues as Windows 8/9 (if I remember correctly). It's a step back not only in terms of looks, but functionality as well.
pianowizard wrote:Who cares about the animations in the Start Menu? Did you know you can delete all preinstalled icons, and even resize the entire Start Menu? Drag it taller, or narrower, whatever. I replaced all default icons with icons for the programs that I use most, and shrank the menu in half. There are no more silly and distracting animations.
I think you misunderstood. I wasn't talking about the scrolling updates for the "news" and "weather" tiles (I don't actually mind those), I was talking about the mechanics of the animations and transitions of everything in the 8/9 start menu that made it so smooth. Many people may not care, and I can understand that, but it's still a sore step back. I know they are capable of making a small start menu that looks and feels good because they did just that in the early Windows 10 preview builds.
pianowizard wrote: There is a lot of praise from the media, but also a lot of criticism about the privacy language in the EULA, and the forced updates. I actually have seen much more of the latter than the former. So, if everyone was really just blindly trusting the media, then almost nobody would be using Windows 10.

I like 10 not because I am the media's sheep. In fact, I was hugely disappointed by the most praised new feature, the Edge browser. I removed it from the Start Menu and the taskbar and will probably never touch it again. Another feature the media loves is Cortana, and I haven't tried it even once.
Maybe it's just all in what you place emphasis on as you read, but it just looked like (to me) that the response was overly positive and that they had made up their mind that it was going to be that way according to the "microsoft media pattern" no matter how good or bad it turned out. As for "Edge", I'm surprised by you (and others) that didn't like it - it has the same dull look (and even a terrible icon that looks shrunken and pathetic compared to the badass "E" that it used to display) and layout as Chrome and all of the politically correct features that make Chrome popular (including a name that isn't "Internet Explorer").
pianowizard wrote:
shawross wrote:Microsoft's problem is IMHO they made Windows 7 so darn good. I know everyone won't agree but after the problems and flak they copped after Vista they nailed Windows 7. If you take most of the visual effects off 7 and keep it clean it flys.
I still don't understand 7's popularity. In my hands, it's substantially less stable than 2000, Vista and 8 (though better than XP). And visually, it looks pretty gross, definitely a major downgrade from Vista. That sign-in screen with the green tree branch is especially off-putting. Was it drawn by a three-year-old?
That's very interesting that you mention that. Windows 7's popularity was partly earned, partly politically correct "microsoft can do no wrong" from the media. I haven't found its stability to be any different than that of XP, Vista, 8, or 8.1 (aka 9). Visually, it's a small upgrade from Vista with newer, slightly improved Window buttons and the "taskbar icon as a progress bar" feature (which, believe it or not, does come in handy for monitoring file transfers and download progress from time to time).

As for the "sign-in screen with the green tree branch", I'm not sure what you're talking about. All I see is that pleasant, hazy blue background eclipsed by the blinding light of epicness shooting up from the corner, bringing a preview of the gifts and magic that you will get to experience after logging in.
pianowizard wrote:My dream OS would be Windows 8 with 10's UI, so I get 8's stability, security and speed, and 10's good-looking and user-friendly UI.
This is already a thing; it's called "Windows 10". The "stability", as I understand it, comes from the same (and incrementally improved) Windows kernel that's been powering the system for years. The "security" comes from the same Windows firewall and Microsoft Security Essentials that have been included with Windows since XP and 8, respectively. And the "speed" hearkens back to the reasonable efficiency of the operating system that has been inherent with every version of Windows based on the modern kernel (9, 8, 7, Vista, XP, 2000...). Of course, if by "speed" you are referring to "hybrid shutdown", you'll also be pleased to know that Windows 8-10 all have this as an option, and you are always welcome to separately log out and hibernate on previous versions of Windows.

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Re: Windows 10 and why I don't care for it much.

#89 Post by MikalE » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:51 pm

I used Windows 10 for approximately two weeks before reloading Windows 7. I don't like the lack of control over the OS, I don't like the privacy invasion, nor the look of 10.

I'll keep Windows 7 until past EOL.

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Last edited by MikalE on Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: response

#90 Post by pianowizard » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:21 am

SurrealMustard wrote:Does the Master Control Panel Shortcut feature provide access to those things?
All things.
SurrealMustard wrote:I thought the start menu was one of 7's biggest improvements because it allows the search functionality to look for control panel items
This functionality is still there in 10's Start Menu. As a confirmation, I just tried "mouse" like you did.
SurrealMustard wrote:As for "Edge", I'm surprised by you (and others) that didn't like it - it has the same dull look (and even a terrible icon that looks shrunken and pathetic compared to the badass "E" that it used to display) and layout as Chrome and all of the politically correct features that make Chrome popular (including a name that isn't "Internet Explorer").
I am an Internet Explorer guy. I like it because it is the most keyboard-friendly, and very customizable. I also use Opera a little bit.
SurrealMustard wrote:That's very interesting that you mention that. Windows 7's popularity was partly earned, partly politically correct "microsoft can do no wrong" from the media.
Again, I don't know where you see the "Microsoft can do no wrong" mentality from the media. The media loves to exaggerate how terrible, evil and obsolete Microsoft is, while praising Apple religiously. CNET is the worst in this regard. Windows 10 is really one of the handful of instances where the media has said anything positive about Microsoft.
SurrealMustard wrote:As for the "sign-in screen with the green tree branch", I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Here: https://www.novell.com/communities/medi ... 1748-1.jpg
SurrealMustard wrote:This is already a thing; it's called "Windows 10".
In my hands, Windows 10 has been unstable. Vista and 2000 are the most stable, with 8/8.1 right behind them. XP and 7 are noticeably worse, and 10 and 98/98SE are even worse. The worst ever is of course Millennium.
SurrealMustard wrote:The "security" comes from the same Windows firewall and Microsoft Security Essentials that have been included with Windows since XP and 8, respectively.
Security is much more than Windows Firewall and MSE/Defender. XP is notoriously non-secure.
SurrealMustard wrote:And the "speed" hearkens back to the reasonable efficiency of the operating system that has been inherent with every version of Windows based on the modern kernel (9, 8, 7, Vista, XP, 2000...). Of course, if by "speed" you are referring to "hybrid shutdown", you'll also be pleased to know that Windows 8-10 all have this as an option, and you are always welcome to separately log out and hibernate on previous versions of Windows.
Nope, by "speed" I was referring to overall operations, such as how fast a folder opens, how fast a program starts, etc. 8 feels faster than 10, while 10 seems comparable to 7.
MikalE wrote:I don't like the privacy invasion...
You have been misled by the media and online forums. This privacy invasion applies only to Cortana, Microsoft Store's apps, and other smartphone/tablet-like features that come with Windows 10. If you never use any of these things, and if you turn off the smartphone/tablet-like features, 10 is not that different from 7.

Don't believe everything that the media says.
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