I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

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Hans Gruber · #1 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:08 pm

Part of me want to stay true to the roots of the T61. They came with Windows Vista Business and some Ultimate. I have been putting on Windows 7 on most of these machines. It's been years since I used the Vista OS. The most recent T61 had BitLocker installed and had ghosts of it in the bios before I flashed the Middleton bios.

This particular T61 is a very high end T61. I can't read the version of Vista but only Ultimate and Enterprise had bitlocker. It came with a stock T9300. Made a few months shy of the 8/08 safe date for the Nvidia GPU's.

Thoughts and opinions on Vista Ultimate 64 bit or Windows 7 64 bit Premium or Pro.

ajkula66 · #2 Post by **ajkula66** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:03 pm

My answer would go along the following lines: if you're intent on running a SSD, go with W7. With a spinner, Vista of any kind is more than good enough. The only reason why I'm making this distinction is because Vista doesn't have native TRIM.

Now, if you're looking at a SSD that has the capability of running GC manually, you *could* go for Vista as well, although personally I would go with W7..

My $0.02 only...

Hans Gruber · #3 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:44 pm

George, I think I will try out Vista on one T61. I don't have any spare SSD's at the moment. Just spinner drives.

jronald · #4 Post by **jronald** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:24 pm

I have had 2 T61, an Intel and a Nvidia. Both ran 7 Ultimate with 3 gigs of ram exceptionally well. Both had Middleton or Zender Bios installed. 5400 rpm HDD's did not help, but really did not hinder them either.

YMMV
Ron

Hans Gruber · #5 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:39 pm

jronald wrote:I have had 2 T61, an Intel and a Nvidia. Both ran 7 Ultimate with 3 gigs of ram exceptionally well. Both had Middleton or Zender Bios installed. 5400 rpm HDD's did not help, but really did not hinder them either.

YMMV
Ron

I am testing out a T500 that I just got a few days ago with Vista 64 Ultimate right now. I am using a Seagate 7200rpm SATA III 320gb drive. Loading all the updates right now. The two T61 models arrive tomorrow. I have Win 7 64 bit on the T61 widescreen with the 2.5ghz processor and 4gb of ram. Because of cost I only use 4gb of ram on the T61 series. I have 6gb in this T500.

GACrabill · #6 Post by **GACrabill** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:17 pm

Hans Gruber wrote:Thoughts and opinions on Vista Ultimate 64 bit or Windows 7 64 bit Premium or Pro.

Just my 2 cents : are you comfortable with the end-of-support for Vista being ~18 months from now ? ... or would you rather use an OS that is supported till 2020 ?

Hans Gruber · #7 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:53 pm

GACrabill wrote:
Hans Gruber wrote:Thoughts and opinions on Vista Ultimate 64 bit or Windows 7 64 bit Premium or Pro.
Just my 2 cents : are you comfortable with the end-of-support for Vista being ~18 months from now ? ... or would you rather use an OS that is supported till 2020 ?

I am comfortable dumping any OS and wiping a hard drive at any time. I am really only testing out Vista on this T500.

ajkula66 · #8 Post by **ajkula66** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:11 am

Hans Gruber wrote:
I am comfortable dumping any OS and wiping a hard drive at any time.

An excellent attitude to maintain, especially when playing with older systems...

Hans Gruber · #9 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:02 pm

Well that experiment ended badly with Vista. I forgot how much a pile of junk Vista was. People wonder why so many didn't want to migrate from XP? Windows 7 is a solid OS. Back to Win 7 Pro. I could not install SP1 on Vista 64. I searched the Microsoft website and found 2015 many many people with the same problem. It said SP1 was installed but it wasn't. I tried to install SP2 and it said SP1 had to be installed first.

Those nerdy programmer kids tried many times to teach me how to debug, trouble shoot and patch a flawed OS for years. My solution has always been do you have a USB flash drive or a backup hard drive for your files? A clean install/reinstall from scratch. I know it takes longer that way but it works.

40GB was the space used for Vista 64 bit ultimate without the SP1 and SP2 service packs. I figure it would be 60GB if I was able to install all the service packs and other updates.

Instead of Microsoft updates, they should create .iso images of all the updates to date on any Microsoft OS. Every month or every two months release an .iso image that would automatically update your OS to the latest updates. That is essentially what Linux Mint does with each subsequent release. The keep it simple stupid approach. In windows 7, you simply right click on the .iso image and burn it on your CD/DVD burner.

pianowizard · #10 Post by **pianowizard** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:26 pm

Hans Gruber wrote:Well that experiment ended badly with Vista. I forgot how much a pile of junk Vista was. People wonder why so many didn't want to migrate from XP? Windows 7 is a solid OS. Back to Win 7 Pro. I could not install SP1 on Vista 64....40GB was the space used for Vista 64 bit ultimate without the SP1 and SP2 service packs. I figure it would be 60GB if I was able to install all the service packs and other updates.

Pre-SP1 Vista was unquestionably a pile of junk, but post-SP2 Vista is the most reliable OS I have ever used, far better than 7 or XP on all my computers. This is why I have never called XP or 7 "a solid OS" -- compared to Vista (or 8 or 2000 for that matter), they simply aren't that solid.

I don't think I have ever needed to install SP1, because all my Vista setup discs (both 32-bit and 64-bit) include SP1. Some of these discs were burned from Microsoft Digital River's official ISO files, and others are from Dell. SP2 can be downloaded from http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download ... x?id=16468 , and it installs successfully every single time. After going through CLEANMGR /SAGESET and then CLEANMGR /SAGERUN in the Command Prompt as an admin, Vista with SP2, MSE and all subsequent updates takes up only about 10GB.

Get a hold of a Vista setup disc with SP1, and try again. It will completely change your attitude toward Vista.

Hans Gruber · #11 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:51 pm

pianowizard wrote:
Hans Gruber wrote:Well that experiment ended badly with Vista. I forgot how much a pile of junk Vista was. People wonder why so many didn't want to migrate from XP? Windows 7 is a solid OS. Back to Win 7 Pro. I could not install SP1 on Vista 64....40GB was the space used for Vista 64 bit ultimate without the SP1 and SP2 service packs. I figure it would be 60GB if I was able to install all the service packs and other updates.
Pre-SP1 Vista was unquestionably a pile of junk, but post-SP2 Vista is the most reliable OS I have ever used, far better than 7 or XP on all my computers. This is why I have never called XP or 7 "a solid OS" -- compared to Vista (or 8 or 2000 for that matter), they simply aren't that solid.

I don't think I have ever needed to install SP1, because all my Vista setup discs (both 32-bit and 64-bit) include SP1. Some of these discs were burned from Microsoft Digital River's official ISO files, and others are from Dell. SP2 can be downloaded from http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download ... x?id=16468 , and it installs successfully every single time. After going through CLEANMGR /SAGESET and then CLEANMGR /SAGERUN in the Command Prompt as an admin, Vista with SP2, MSE and all subsequent updates takes up only about 10GB.

Get a hold of a Vista setup disc with SP1, and try again. It will completely change your attitude toward Vista.

Perhaps on a different machine. I have this gem of a T500 that I just got a few days ago. The other T500 I named Fenrir for the wild wolf beast son of Loki. It took me weeks and more than 10 hours of work to tame that T500. All my other Thinkpads were simple.

I have the Vista 64 Bit Ultimate retail copy from Microsoft. It's the original copy. I sometimes get very frustrated when things do not work right. On the bright side I just received a T61 15.4" 1680x1050 with Nivida graphics and a manufacture date of 8/08. I needed a couple of genuine Lenovo 90w power supplies so I bought a couple of T61's and won the T61 lottery on one of them. I will give Vista Ultimate 64 bit a second go of it on one of these T61 models.

MisterB · #12 Post by **MisterB** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:36 pm

I have Vista on 3 Thinkpads right now, two T60s and one X61T. I don't find it to be more or less reliable than Xp or Windows 7. Xp would actually be better in that regard. Once I installed SP2 and disabled the superfetch service, I got decent performance from it. I like it's classic start menu and the fact that I can make it look just like Xp or go to the Windows 7 aero look. It's biggest drawback is that it has periodic memory/pagefile burps that slow the system to a crawl and the explorer crashes when creating thumbnails for large folders with some file types. Windows 7 shares both those problems but the memory/pagefile issue and overall performance is better. The explorer crashes are just as bad or worse on my X61T which dual boots Vista and 7.

Windows 7 is pretty much Vista SP3 but due to Vista's bad reputation, Microsoft had to call it something else. I find Windows 7 to be an optimized Vista more than a completely new OS.

pianowizard · #13 Post by **pianowizard** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:29 am

Hans Gruber wrote:I have the Vista 64 Bit Ultimate retail copy from Microsoft. It's the original copy.

Which might be the problem. You should get a setup disc with SP1 included, not a pre-SP1 setup disc. Too bad we can no longer download the ISO files from Digital River.

MisterB wrote:I have Vista on 3 Thinkpads right now, two T60s and one X61T. I don't find it to be more or less reliable than Xp or Windows 7.

To me, blue screens and freezes that force me to reboot are the biggest reliability concerns. Below are my estimates of the number of times I have had these problems:

98/98SE (used 1998 - 2006): hundreds of times
2000 (used 2002 - 2009): at most several times
XP (used 2002 - 2014): dozens of times
Vista (used a tiny bit in 2007 & 2008, and extensively from 2010 - present): zero
7 (used 2009 - present): dozens of times
8 (used 2012 - present): once
10 (used since late July 2015): dozens of times

MisterB wrote:It's biggest drawback is that it has periodic memory/pagefile burps that slow the system to a crawl and the explorer crashes when creating thumbnails for large folders with some file types. Windows 7 shares both those problems but the memory/pagefile issue and overall performance is better. The explorer crashes are just as bad or worse on my X61T which dual boots Vista and 7.

When my HP 8300 Elite had 7, explorer crashes were a frequent problem, happening nearly daily. This problem went away after this computer was upgraded to 10 (though I struggled with video drivers for a week or so). Vista has never given me explorer crashes on any of my computers.

I do think that the stability of an OS depends to some extent on what computer you are running it on. Lenovo was probably not very keen on supporting Vista. For a couple days back in 2007, I owned a brand-new X61 tablet preinstalled with Vista, which was virtually unusable because it was so frigging slow (and that's why I sold it after just a couple days). Of course, that was pre-SP1, when Vista itself was problematic, but I suspect Lenovo could have made it run better. In summer 2008, I had Vista with SP1 on a G41 Thinkpad that I had for two months. It was much snappier despite the G41 having just 1GB of RAM, and I don't recall encountering stability issues, though I didn't use that laptop much. I haven't tried Vista on any Thinkpads since then, but since 2010 it (with SP2) has been working flawlessly on numerous Dell desktops and laptops, quite a few HP desktops, and a Gateway laptop.

thinkpadcollection · #14 Post by **thinkpadcollection** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:01 am

This is strange since I always use best parts except for one mistake one computer had generic memory that failed silently corrupting win 7 then finally hard failure (evidenced by startup blue screens).

Only one I had that unstable were VIA chipset with socket A.

Cheers, thinkpadcollection

MisterB · #15 Post by **MisterB** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:21 am

I just had a blue screen in Vista a few days ago. Xp, 7 and Vista are all about running equal in blue screen crashes. I don't get them often but no version of Windows is immune. I rate reliability with a bit more than blue screen crashes. Having to wait 2 minutes to switch to another window because the system is hung up on a process or swapping memory to a page file is not good for productivity. I should have mentioned that the Windows Update service can also cause this to happen in Vista. Xp and 7 can also have slow downs due to Windows Update but Vista slows down to the point of being unusable.

The Explorer crashes could be avoided by disabling thumbnail view but that is kind of a nice feature. It is bound up in file type, associated app and codecs/handlers for the file type.

thinkpadcollection · #16 Post by **thinkpadcollection** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:51 am

MisterB, that could be still be a memory problem, and cooling needing cleaning and heatsink compound reapplied after cleaning off old one.

Cheers, thinkpadcollection

Hans Gruber · #17 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:10 pm

My second attempt at installing Vista is underway. It uses a different version of Lenovo system update than Win 7. I manually downloaded SP1 and SP2. Had to manually download the wifi drivers, Lenovo update didn't find the wireless drivers. Without SP1 wifi is locked at 54kbps on vista so I am using ethernet cable.

I am putting Vista on a T500 but I have four different T61 models. If it goes well I may put Vista on a T61 as well.

Hans Gruber · #18 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:03 pm

Update, so far so good after a clean install I have SP1 on of Vista 64-bit Ultimate. Right now SP2 is being installed.

MisterB · #19 Post by **MisterB** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:35 pm

thinkpadcollection wrote:MisterB, that could be still be a memory problem, and cooling needing cleaning and heatsink compound reapplied after cleaning off old one.

Cheers, thinkpadcollection

Doubtful. I have TP Fan Control and a process monitor in my system tray. I'm aware when there is excessive CPU or memory use and the system is running hot.

There is one video file type on my T60 with Vista that causes most of the explorer crashes. I updated the video codecs and that seems to have helped. On my X61 with Windows 7, I have SD cards with huge folders of old magazine scans and the explorer crashes when I open a folder with a lot of files. It is always connected to automatic thumbnail generation. Using a different CBR viewer might cure it but I'm fond of the one I've got.

The memory burps usually happen after I've hibernated and awakened the system over several days. Having too many programs running is often a factor. So is Windows Update which can consume a lot of system resources without showing up in the process monitor but there are times it happens when the system ram is only at 40 or 50%.

Hans Gruber · #20 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:08 pm

I got an .iso image of Windows Vista Business 64-bit from a cherub on another forum. It weighs in at only 15GB which includes SP1 and SP2. I junked my Vista Ultimate because it was severely bloated. I used my T61 14.1" as a guinea pig for Vista business 64 bit. Activation had no issues.

I will spend the next week testing Vista.

Hans Gruber · #21 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:06 pm

I am investigating why SSD drives do not do well on Vista besides not having native trim support. Vista has disk defragmenting automatically turned on. The user has to go into the disk defragmenting utility and remove the check mark. I am researching the indexing feature Vista uses as well which should be disabled because a standard OS is not a server and could cause wear on an SSD.

Hearing stories of SSD's wearing down over time on Vista could be related to the auto disk defragmenting which is turned on in Vista. SSD's are not meant to be defragmenting because they are solid state with no moving platters or parts.

My other project is making disk images of my hard drive so I can clone HDD's with Vista. I bought a hardware based cloning cradle system and I am working on perfecting it. Basically I do a clean install of the OS with all the updates and create a copy.

thinkpadcollection · #22 Post by **thinkpadcollection** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:14 pm

This piqued my curiosity, what the reasons to work with vista?

Cheers, thinkpadcollection

Hans Gruber · #23 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:21 pm

thinkpadcollection wrote:This piqued my curiosity, what the reasons to work with vista?

Cheers, thinkpadcollection

Could you rephrase the question. Are you asking why I am putting on Vista Business 64bit on T61 and T500 models?

thinkpadcollection · #24 Post by **thinkpadcollection** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:40 pm

Yes, curious to know what is reasons to work with vista? Like for example, I preferred XP, 7 and 10 for ease of use and reliable and works very well with so many softwares, etc.

Cheers, thinkpadcollection

ajkula66 · #25 Post by **ajkula66** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:44 pm

thinkpadcollection wrote:Yes, curious to know what is reasons to work with vista? Like for example, I preferred XP, 7 and 10 for ease of use and reliable and works very well with so many softwares, etc.

Well, if one has a *61 series system - many of which came with a Vista COA - that's a free OS right then and there. A supported one - unlike XP - as well.

Vista today is a far cry from what it was when it first hit the market. Not necessarily my first choice, but not a bad OS in its current form whatsoever.

My $0.02 only...

Hans Gruber · #26 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:47 pm

Mostly because it's the native OS for these T61 models. I have Win 7 on a T500 but put Vista Business 64 bit on a T500 to test it out. I got a Vista Business 64bit with SP2 so I figured I would test it out. My other project is procuring an .iso version of Win XP 64bit for another T61 to test that out. I am in the process of verifying an .iso image of Win XP 64 bit right now. I will let you know how that goes as well.

ajkula66 · #27 Post by **ajkula66** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:28 pm

Hans Gruber wrote:My other project is procuring an .iso version of Win XP 64bit for another T61 to test that out. I am in the process of verifying an .iso image of Win XP 64 bit right now. I will let you know how that goes as well.

I predict running into *major* driver issues since Lenovo never supported the 64-bit version of XP...

Hans Gruber · #28 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:34 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Hans Gruber wrote:My other project is procuring an .iso version of Win XP 64bit for another T61 to test that out. I am in the process of verifying an .iso image of Win XP 64 bit right now. I will let you know how that goes as well.
I predict running into *major* driver issues since Lenovo never supported the 64-bit version of XP...

The question is did IBM support XP 64 bit? That is how old the OS is.

ajkula66 · #29 Post by **ajkula66** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:43 pm

Hans Gruber wrote: The question is did IBM support XP 64 bit? That is how old the OS is.

Nope.

And *61-series are post-IBM no matter how you look at it.

Hans Gruber · #30 Post by **Hans Gruber** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:01 pm

It's a Win XP key on this T61. I figure I will try the Vista 64 bit drivers.

I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Ultimate on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

Re: I have several T61 series Thinkpads, should I put on Vista Business 64bit on them or Win 7?

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