Is mSATA SSD mini PCIE Bootable?

[Pete B]

I'd like to install a mini PCIe SSD for the OS and Apps and then use the regular drive bay for a large drive - I have a 320 handy to use. I want the OS and Apps to load and run fast and then keep data on the large drive.
I might use this system as a handy and portable music and video server where I'd need a large drive for data.
Are these mini PCIe SSDs bootable? Something like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820167040

There are also these mini PCIe cards that take two micro SD cards which are cheap and reasonably fast these days, would this be bootable:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Micro-SD-SD ... SwNSxVLH7c

[axur-delmeria]

mSATA SSDs won't work when plugged in the mPCIe slot of the X61-- those only work on the *20 and *30 generations (X220/230, T420/430, W520/530). It's one of the reasons I moved on to the X220 as my primary machine.

The mPCIe microSD device you linked to identifies itself as a USB 2.0 device, which means you cannot install Windows on it--Windows generally doesn't allow installation on storage media it identifies as removable drives. I don't know if a workaround has been found, but you're bound to be limited by USB 2.0's bandwidth (usually around 30 MB/s) as well as long-term reliability of the SD cards themselves.

[Pete B]

Thanks, interesting, is it that the mPCI-e slots do not have the SATA connections?
Doesn't the Southbridge have more SATA ports that could be wired up? Not that it
is something that I'd want to do.

[bit_twiddler]

The pinout on the mPCI-e slots are wrong, I seem to recall that some
pins are actually swapped from what they would need to be.

This all didn't get sorted out until the *20 (Sandy Bridge).

[axur-delmeria]

Thanks, interesting, is it that the mPCI-e slots do not have the SATA connections?

Correct. Neither of the two mPCIe slots in the X61 carry SATA signals.
The mSATA specification was announced on September 21, 2009, but laptops that have mSATA slots only appeared in 2011.

Doesn't the Southbridge have more SATA ports that could be wired up? Not that it is something that I'd want to do

That's already been discussed before. In the X61, the pins on the Southbridge chip for the other SATA ports are either held to ground, or not connected at all.

There's one person in this thread who was able to have an mSATA + HDD setup on his X61, but it's a difficult mod that involves:
1. Snaking the SATA data lines to an mSATA SSD. To make space for the SSD, the cage for the Cardbus slot was removed.
2. A mPCIe USB 3.0 controller card was installed on the second mPCIe slot, then a USB 3.0 to SATA adapter was crammed into the laptop. Because of this, the HDD is not bootable.

The primary issue with the mod is that the USB 3.0 chip gets hot, resulting in a very warm right palmrest.

[flyingfishfinger]

Because of this, the HDD is not bootable.

Semi-correct. I'm kind of working on a SATA switch board that lives where the 2nd fan does which lets you choose which SATA lines are connected to the motherboard, thus making either drive bootable. "Semi-working" because I actually haven't had a use case for it yet and my first version didn't work. When I do, I'll probably make it work.

....but that's a huge hack for bootability

R

[Pete B]

Because of this, the HDD is not bootable.

Semi-correct. I'm kind of working on a SATA switch board that lives where the 2nd fan does which lets you choose which SATA lines are connected to the motherboard, thus making either drive bootable. "Semi-working" because I actually haven't had a use case for it yet and my first version didn't work. When I do, I'll probably make it work.

....but that's a huge hack for bootability

R

I'm not exactly following, are you switching the main SATA lines that normally go
to the main SATA bay? I take it you've not figured out how to connect to the second
SATA port?

The SATA digital lines are very high speed, so one tip is to try to make the traces
and switches controlled impedance. Certainly use a ground plane, perhaps even
interleaved grounds for shielding and to get the impedance right.

Is it discussed anywhere if there are useful signals on the dock connector? Even
PATA for a CD ROM, or ...? It would be nice to convert the Cardbus bay to another
SATA or even PATA bay, the 1.8" drive format is pretty small. You don't need much
bandwidth for audio and video so PATA to a big drive would be fine.

[Pete B]

Here a guy loads win 2000 onto an SD card by making it look like a PATA drive, so
to the OS it looks like a fixed drive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hDOiI0-6s
he says over and over that it will be too slow, then finds out that it is not too bad. It
is a 30 MB/sec SD card which is about the same as a mechanical drive but without
the super long seek and rotational latency, so really it is better than a spinner. And
now >80 MB/sec SD cards are cheap. I find that 80 or more MB/sec without latency
is really not bad for speed.
This is my CF-51 with SATA SSD through a PATA adapter, it feels fast more like an SSD
than a mechanical drive:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/attachm ... png.90704/

I wonder if that SD card was moved to the SD reader on an X61s if it would boot?
Wouldn't want to live with it like this since the SD reader is nice to have for pictures
from a camera or video.

[axur-delmeria]

I'm not exactly following, are you switching the main SATA lines that normally go to the main SATA bay?

No. There's one SATA port, and he's trying to make a switch that lets either the mSATA SSD or the HDD to be connected to it, allowing either of them to boot.

I take it you've not figured out how to connect to the second SATA port?

Trying to connect the unused SATA ports from the southbridge chip is a dead end-- it's been discussed before, and dismissed as "not feasible" as it requires creating a small PCB to be sandwiched between the southbridge chip and the system board; that PCB is a breakout board for the unused SATA ports, while being a mere passthrough for the rest of the signal pins. Of course, the southbridge needs to be desoldered first before this can be done.

Is it discussed anywhere if there are useful signals on the dock connector? Even PATA for a CD ROM, or ...?

There's a PATA signal on the Dock connector for the Ultrabay on the Ultrabase X6, so yeah, you can try that. But take note that PATA means soldering more wires (maybe 30+) and lots of possible sources of interference.

A similar mod was done on the X200 and X201--their Dock connector carries SATA signals, so they used those to connect an mSATA SSD.

I wonder if that SD card was moved to the SD reader on an X61s if it would boot?

The SD card slot on any X60/61 model is not bootable.

[Pete B]

Thanks, makes sense. Too bad SATA didn't go to the dock connector.
You're right, don't think I want to solder 30 connections.

[Pete B]

I've been hearing good things about SanDisk SD cards and came across this review:
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-sd-card/

B&H Photo has deeply discounted prices on even the 128 GB cards.

[Pete B]

I'm seeing SanDisk 128GB USB flash drives for under $30.

Having digested all of this it seems that the boot drive should be an SSD in the
normal bay and with flash drives having come down so much I can easily get
another 256GB in a mPCI-e slot internal, 512 GB if I spend a bit more.

Someone on this forum showed a very compact mPCI-e card that had two USB 2.0
connectors on it where flash drives could be plugged in. I can't find the thread or
the card on ebay or the net. Anyone remember that thread?
I don't need the speed of USB3 for streaming music, video, or loading docs.

I do see the dual micro SD cards but I prefer USB.

[wileE]

It would be more cost efficient to simply get a SSD with more capacity. Data would be safer on it too.

There is still no good way to get a second drive into the X61.

[Pete B]

I'm using a 120 GB SSD that I already had, the 250s are getting cheap but
the 512s or higher are still expensive.
I'd probably put in one 128 now, then have room for a second in time when
the 256s will probably be cheap when I could then put 2 in.

It bothers me that I can't find that thread, forgot to bookmark it.

[flyingfishfinger]

This, or do you mean one with 2 actual ports on it?

R

[Pete B]

like this but with another connector for a second device:
http://www.pc-adapter.net/products/634.html

[Pete B]

Seems the 480 to 512 GB SSDs are really coming down in price. I found an
Intel 535 Series 2.5" 480GB SATA III MLC for $129, not bad. I seem to
remember reading that this drive has high standby power, have to check on
that.

Even the Samsung 500 GB Evo is down to $149.

[xiphmont]

That's already been discussed before. In the X61, the pins on the Southbridge chip for the other SATA ports are either held to ground, or not connected at all.
There's one person in this thread who was able to have an mSATA + HDD setup on his X61, but it's a difficult mod that involves:

Well, more than one, I just haven't posted about it

You can, in fact, intercept one of the two exposed SATA channels from the southbridge and route it to the WWAN slot cleanly. But you have to choose to either disable the internal HDD bay or the slice SATA connectivity. In my case, I disable the internal HDD because I use the bay for an internal battery.

Routing working SATAII lines is tricky. It has absolutely insane signal timing and noise requirements. Wire length and routing matters. Doing the needed twisted pair by hand can be hit or miss. One messy solder joint and it just doesn't work, or only works 90% of the time.

The southbridge has several unused SATA channels, but they're not physically exposed. Theoretically, you could lift the southbridge and draw new lines off covered pads in the BGA. I have no idea if the BIOS or ECU would see them even if they were routed, though. I expect not.

[automobus]

In my case, I disable the internal HDD because I use the bay for an internal battery.

I find this more interesting than SATA mod. Did you ever write about this mod? Is this battery instead of, or in parallel with, main battery? Or is it connected as auxiliary (instead of slice) battery?

[flyingfishfinger]

...because I use the bay for an internal battery.

You've mentioned this before, care to elaborate? More batteries in an X6X would be great!

R

[wileE]

Internal battery is interesting, but this is more so:

You can, in fact, intercept one of the two exposed SATA channels from the southbridge and route it to the WWAN slot cleanly. But you have to choose to either disable the internal HDD bay or the slice SATA connectivity.

Where are those second SATA points? I always thought the slice connector only had IDE. A second HDD would be a dream come true.

[flyingfishfinger]

Well, you can have a 2nd HDD if you use my method

But according to the schematic, only one of three SATA ports is available. The other two have their signal pins pulled low, presumably under the BGA.

I am intrigued as to what Chris is talking about, but presumably he means he rerouted the regular HDD bay signals like I did. Maybe he would like to comment?

R

[xiphmont]

But according to the schematic, only one of three SATA ports is available. The other two have their signal pins pulled low, presumably under the BGA.

I am intrigued as to what Chris is talking about, but presumably he means he rerouted the regular HDD bay signals like I did. Maybe he would like to comment?

Oh Jeez, you're right. Complete braino on my part, it's IDE fed to the slice not SATA. And yes, I'm rerouting the main HDD on mine as I want the bay space.

I've not written the battery hack up mainly because it's not a very good hack yet. I'd gotten to the point where I have good points to tap and reroute signalling on the motherboard (I'm installing the internal battery as the main formerly external cell, and rerouting the slice cell as the new external.) There are two things I have yet to refine-- a smaller battery controller (the lenovo ones are made to purposely take up a lot of space in the external battery casings) and determining exactly how the various slice switches affect battery use by the BIOS. The release on a slice battery has an active switch, as does the release on the multimedia slice. They affect charging and which battery the machine preferentially draws from-- I want to make sure, which I have not yet, that I can pull the external battery while running on internal without the machine powering off.

In the meantime, I was just trying to source reliable high-capacity cells. Part of my frustration has been from trying to measure the batteries with off-the-shelf RC chargers--- calling them 'inaccurate' is something of an understatement.

[Wizzie]

Hi guys,

I know this is an old topic but i think i found some old resource that might be helpful, what's your opinion?
http://hackaday.com/2010/12/18/making-m ... i-express/

Cheers.

[jdrou]

Hi guys,

I know this is an old topic but i think i found some old resource that might be helpful, what's your opinion?
http://hackaday.com/2010/12/18/making-m ... i-express/

Cheers.

My understanding is he modified a mini-PCIe SSD to work in an mSATA slot because mSATA drives were more rare and expensive at that time. Not sure how much that would help us boot from a mini-PCIe slot.

[axur-delmeria]

Hi guys,

I know this is an old topic but i think i found some old resource that might be helpful, what's your opinion?
http://hackaday.com/2010/12/18/making-m ... i-express/

Cheers.

The SSD in question is not a PCIe device, but an actual SATA SSD that's wired differently from an mSATA SSD. It's used in some early Asus EEE PC netbooks.