Thoughts on the T440 and T450 quality

[brchan]

This is a review on build quality, not implementation of keyboard, trackpoint buttons, ease of FRU/CRU replacement, etc. Over the past few days, I had the chance to use a T440, T450 and X1 (all used). I expected the X1 to have X300/X301 level quality and the T440/T450 to have mediocre build quality. To my surprise, the experience was just the opposite.

Both the T440/T450 units I used had a pretty premium feel similar to my X301. Both felt very solid overall and there were virtually no creaks, rattles, or gaps. The bottom covers also had a nice rubbery matte finish and the keyboard feedback was nice (the layout is a different story). The only real area of improvement needed is the lid. It bends easily and the lcd bezel below the screen is very flexible. In fact, this particular bezel area feels like a thin, cheap piece of vinyl. Hinges are tight and hold the display without wobble. Oddly, the palmrest is painted on top. There was a minor chip in the bottom left corner that exposed bright white plastic, so deep scratches will be very noticeable.

Now for the X1. Other than a very stiff base, it had poor build quality. The glossy screen cover depressed easily, keyboard feel was mediocre, and the palmrest finish seemed to rub off and scratch easily. The hinges in particular were wobbly. They didn't have conventional "play" like on the T60 or T61, but more of a wobble that you find on budget Acers and HPs. Not impressed at all and it was certainly a step down compared to my X301.

Even though my sample size was small and there are some issues with PWM, firmware, and upgradability, I think the takeaway from this is that not all new Thinkpads are built as poorly as one might think. Honestly, the newer Thinkpads felt better than most of the older Lenovo Thinkpads I have used.

[TPFanatic]

Sounds like they need some LCD rollcage. Good information to know and thoughts/opinions to take note of. There does seem to be less enthusiast information about the newer Thinkpads. There is a bit on the XX30 generation, since they are more or less the same as XX10 and XX20 - otherwise Lenovo's deviative decisions definitely alienates us from the newer machines. Shame.

I like the T540p. I don't have one (yet) but it's looks decently thin, has a good screen, and the processors aren't underpowered.

[600X]

You should try the T440s and T450s. They have a much better build quality than the T440 and T450. Also, their lid does not flex.

[Ibthink]

Which X1 Carbon did you get your hands on, X1 Carbon Gen 3? Regarding its quality, it does suffer, because of its focus on thinness and lightness - saving weight impacts the build quality, and saving a few mm in height impacts the keyboard. For a machine this thin and light, I think its still better then any other Ultrabook on the market. Nonetheless, I tend to recommend T-Series over the X1 line, not only for the upgradeability and the ports, but also the build quality.

Interesting to read your thoughts. As 600X suggested, T440s/T450s feel even more premium. They have a very similar construction, but with different materials. T460s on the other hand uses a new construction, while the T460 remains the same as T440/T450 for the most part.

Honestly, the newer Thinkpads felt better than most of the older Lenovo Thinkpads I have used.

This is what I say since I first got the T440s back in 2013: You may disagree with some of the design choices Lenovo made on some of the newer models (particularly the keyboard of the X1 Carbon Gen 2 and the buttonless TrackPad on the Tx40 line), but the build quality of the newer models is better then, say, the T410 - T430 generations, which, despite having a more "traditional" ThinkPad design and until the Tx20 gen also the classic keyboard, had a lot more quality issues. The T420 my mother really has bad build quality.

[brchan]

Which X1 Carbon did you get your hands on, X1 Carbon Gen 3? Regarding its quality, it does suffer, because of its focus on thinness and lightness - saving weight impacts the build quality, and saving a few mm in height impacts the keyboard. For a machine this thin and light, I think its still better then any other Ultrabook on the market. Nonetheless, I tend to recommend T-Series over the X1 line, not only for the upgradeability and the ports, but also the build quality.

I was actually using the original X1, not the carbon. There does seem to be some posts on people having hinge issues especially on the 4th gen carbons. The X1 and carbon line is generally marketed as a very premium high end line. It's too bad that even a much cheaper T series (about $650 new after corporate perks discount!) now beats it easily in this department.

This is what I say since I first got the T440s back in 2013: You may disagree with some of the design choices Lenovo made on some of the newer models (particularly the keyboard of the X1 Carbon Gen 2 and the buttonless TrackPad on the Tx40 line), but the build quality of the newer models is better then, say, the T410 - T430 generations, which, despite having a more "traditional" ThinkPad design and until the Tx20 gen also the classic keyboard, had a lot more quality issues. The T420 my mother has really has bad build quality.

Agreed. The base and plastics on my W530 feel pretty cheap in general and even more so in comparison to the T440/T450 I used. You actually get quite a lot of quality especially considering the lower prices of new Thinkpads.

[Ibthink]

Ah, I see. The first X1...well, that machine is also part of the T420 generation. I can´t say much about it, since I only got a few brief hands-on moments with it. But it seems they went they cheap route with the screen cover back then, choosing thin Magnesium over Carbon for cost reasons.

Regarding Gen 4 carbon, I can only talk about the X1 Yoga (which is the same as the X1 Carbon Gen 4 for the most part). Its build quality was pretty good for the low weight and thickness, and a slight improvement over X1 Carbon Gen 3. Still more flexible base then models like the T460s.

The machine that beats them all however is my current one - the P50. Its a serious brick, but also has a very strong base made out of Magnesium.

[Pokrzept]

Guys please do compare "The ThinkPads" with Lenovo-ThinkPads. What I mean you're all referring to the 2010+ models, which were redesigned by an Lenovo according to their main motto - lets keep the price tag but lets make it cheaper. Up to T400/500 our beloved units were made of Super-Elastic PolyCarbonate / Carbon-Fiber Reinforced Plastic combo. In 2010 Lenovo decided to drop that material and use cheap and poor PC/ABS instead of SEPC. Most of you know pretty well how did it ended - I do still have an nightmares reminding me shiny and flexible palmrest of my T430 All your responses reminds me that our human kind adapts to new circumstances. Please do not call post-T430 units superior to their predecessors. I did had an T540p and I do have L450 now and to me they are really generic. Over the past few years ThinkPads have lost their consistency, and the feeling that every single detail has been discussed ten times about how it gonna impact on end-user.

[Ibthink]

Lenovo did not drop Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic. Its still used on higher end models like the T460s. Models like T450, T440 or T460 use Glass-Fiber Reinforced Plastic, which is far away from PC/ABS plastic.

ABS Plastic is not used on most models, besides for the palmrest. Of course it is used on the L450 you use, but that because thats a cheap value model. And the T540p...well, that model had some issues. It is discontinued now after all, and T540p/W540/W541 are replaced by the vastly better (albeit more expensive) P50.

T400 is not a very good example for very good build quality in my book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8sOO-8LP4E Lets not forget the T400 was the model that introduced heavy keyboard flex, that was only fixed with the Tx40 line and their new construction.

Please do not call post-T430 units superior to their predecessors.

Well, they are. Or do you think brchan is dishonest in his little review?

[Pokrzept]

Please do not call post-T430 units superior to their predecessors.

Well, they are. Or do you think brchan is dishonest in his little review?

You know pretty well this was not my intention.

When it comes to an T400 I cannot say a bad word about it. Maybe because mine was produced in DEC/2009 and as far as I remember Lenovo did made some fixes in a matter of an keyboard and palmrest flexing (additional metal brackets). It took a hard beating since 2009 and it is still in a great shape. Whats more it fell from 1,5 meter on concrete walkway and - beside tiny scratch on the corner - nothing broke or fell apart. I took it out of thin urban backpack and it turned on like nothing happened. And I used it as an example for a simple reason - I had it next to me when I saw this topic and when i looked at it, it remind me that I had every single generation since 2007 - mostly both T and X series - and most of them are long gone, but T400 is still here and still serves me as an working mule.
When you look in the past you'll realize that almost every single generation had some bigger and smaller construction/manufacture issues but when you took them in your hands you knew it is thinkpad, and you can turn it on and start working without a need of hard adaptation process. Somehow I do not find that feeling in a recent models.

PS. Somehow cheap PC/ABS L450 feels rock solid compared to my previous T540p

[Ibthink]

Of course that comes down to construction too, not only materials. T540p had a very similar construction to models like the T530, but even more aimed at lightness, which impacted the build quality. The design already had plenty weak spots (ODD, Expresscard slot), and Lenovo saving on weight to make it lighter didn´t help. P50 on the other hand uses heavier materials (Magnesium base) and also eliminated the DVD drive. Its a far better constructed model compared with the T540p, since saving weight wasn´t the focus here.

L450 has almost the same construction as T450, but without the roll-cage and cheaper plastics.

When you look in the past you'll realize that almost every single generation had some bigger and smaller construction/manufacture issues but when you took them in your hands you knew it is thinkpad, and you can turn it on and start working without a need of hard adaptation process. Somehow I do not find that feeling in a recent models.

That may come down to the changes in the layout. Also Lenovo changed the paint on some models, like the T460s. Its no longer the old rubberized paint, its a different paint. Other models like my P50 still have a rubberized lid.

[600X]

As much as I defend classic ThinkPads, the T400 simply isn't that good when it comes to build quality. Yes, the materials are of a higher quality than on the T410-T430, but these models are atavistic in so many ways that I don't even count them as proper ThinkPads. The last classic ThinkPad that really impresses me is the T61, but only if you replace the hinges with T60 hinges. The T60 is another noticeable step up from the T61, but I am aware that some people do not notice the differences between these two models.

As Ibthink has stated, the T540p is simply a piece of crap. I said so in my review in 2013 and that hasn't changed since. The T440(s) was the start of Lenovo finally getting their act together in terms of build quality and reaching T60/T61-ish levels again, albeit 8 years after the introduction of the T60. One might even state that Lenovo is lagging behind 8 years, although it is certainly more complicated than that. The T440s (and newer) may not reach the T60, but there is a fair trade-off in quality considering the price. Features and design choices are obviously a different matter.

I would go as far as to argue that Lenovo first started making progress in 2013, which was the first year that ThinkPads actually started getting smaller (thin bezels), thinner and lighter again. The T410 was literally worse in almost every single aspect compared to the T400 and its predecessors, using cheaper materials, being thicker heavier and larger, having horrible electrical components (DAC), having a worse keyboard, and owning the most pitiful speakers I have ever heard. The T420 exacerbated these issues. The only issue that they amended were the unreliable hinges. Also note that there are always exceptions. The T510 line for instance wasn't quite as bad as its 14" counter-part.

[brchan]

The T61 and T400 era wasn't a very good time for Lenovo. The hinges are terrible, especially on the 15.4" units (T60s also have wobbly hinges, but to a more tolerable extent). The 14.1" 4:3 ratio right hinges often snap. On the 15.4" ones, the frames easily broke near the left hinge (also happened on the 15" T60 and R60), and the T400/T500/W500 models had usb tabs that broke off easily. On the T500/W500, the lcd roll cage may fracture at the left hinge as well. I will admit that the T400 was probably the best built of the current lineup at the time, not including the X series. The LCD rollcages around this time did make the lid very resistant to external torsion and damage.

I would rate the T440 and T450 as having a pretty big step up in QC and build compared to the T410 - T430 era and a bit better than the T61. T60 still takes the cake, but not by too much. Now would I buy a T440 or T450? Unlikely, given other design decisions they have. However, build quality isn't really an issue at all.

[600X]

T60 still takes the cake, but not by too much.

In that case, I presume you would find the T440s to be better than any previous ThinkPad you have owned, apart from machines like the 600 series perhaps.

Also, you must consider age. I have used a second hand T440s which had hinges that were so worn, they couldn't even hold the display in place. Lenovo still doesn't seem to have that figured out, and the T440s isn't even that old yet.

[brchan]

In that case, I presume you would find the T440s to be better than any previous ThinkPad you have owned, apart from machines like the 600 series perhaps.

In quality, perhaps. The 600 is solid as a brick and the hinges are still buttery smooth after so many years. Even the ones on my 770 are loose, and don't flow smoothly despite adjusting them. The X301 build is nearly identical, I just wish the lid latches held the lid closer to the base and not cause creaking. These two are my favorites, with honorable mentions to the T23, T43, and T60.

I really liked the fit and finish of those two units, other than the flimsy area around the bottom display bezel and lid strength, which is said to be fixed on the 's' models. Keep in mind these were also used in a heavy corporate environment. Most likely they weren't treated gently.

Also, you must consider age.

Yes, and it will be interesting to see how these units hold up for the next years.

It's odd that you have come across a T440s so early with very worn hinges. I wonder how the 'classic' style hinges will fair compared to the 'drop down' hinges over time.

[dr_st]

As much as I defend classic ThinkPads, the T400 simply isn't that good when it comes to build quality. Yes, the materials are of a higher quality than on the T410-T430, but these models are atavistic in so many ways that I don't even count them as proper ThinkPads.

I am not quite sure what you mean by 'atavistic' in this context. As an owner of a T410 and and X220, they feel quite nice, and do not seem to fare any worse than my 6x series machines, with the same amount of use.

The last classic ThinkPad that really impresses me is the T61, but only if you replace the hinges with T60 hinges. The T60 is another noticeable step up from the T61, but I am aware that some people do not notice the differences between these two models.

Since you just trashed the T400, and the widescreen T61 is essentially the same thing in terms of design and build quality, I have to assume that you mean the 4:3 T61, which is indeed a lot like the T60.

As Ibthink has stated, the T540p is simply a piece of crap. I said so in my review in 2013 and that hasn't changed since. The T440(s) was the start of Lenovo finally getting their act together in terms of build quality and reaching T60/T61-ish levels again, albeit 8 years after the introduction of the T60. One might even state that Lenovo is lagging behind 8 years, although it is certainly more complicated than that. The T440s (and newer) may not reach the T60, but there is a fair trade-off in quality considering the price. Features and design choices are obviously a different matter.

The T410 was literally worse in almost every single aspect compared to the T400 and its predecessors, using cheaper materials, being thicker heavier and larger, having horrible electrical components (DAC), having a worse keyboard, and owning the most pitiful speakers I have ever heard.

I can contest at least some of these claims. Cheaper materials - maybe, but as I said, they hold up quite well. I have seen more T400/T6x systems with chipped off and broken off plastics than T410 (although that may be in part due to age differences). A T410 is thicker, but is not heavier, nor larger than a T400. I measured and weighed them. A T410 also looks much better (symmetric bezel, no front-facing grilles, no ridiculous diagonally extending 9-cell battery). The keyboard is more solid and has less flexing issues than the early T400/500 keyboards (although those can be remedied by installing a T6x keyboard).