A few question about the T460s, need some advice please

[mj0]

Hi everybody,

I'm currently in the process of looking for a new laptop to replace my almost six year old Thinkpad X220. Until Oct 27 I was convinced that I would get a new MacBook Pro, however that has changed now that Apple has pretty much butchered the perfectly fine keyboard on the altar of infinitesimal thinness and replaced it with a 2nd generation butterfly keyboard. Since I'm working in Linux/UNIX devops and IT management claiming that I do rely on my keyboard quite often would be an understatement. Thus, as an alternative I've started looking at the Thinkpad T460s, but there are a few questions I do have.

First of all, it'll be replacing a perfectly fine yet slightly aged Thinkpad X220 with IPS-Panel, Intel Core i5-2520M, 12GB of RAM, 250GB SSD. In terms of performance this laptop is still more than I need, and there's really only one "problem": I have a 27" 4k display connected via display port and the X220 is only capable of running 3840x2160 at a 30 Hz refresh rate. It's perfectly fine for now since I use it for work exclusively and don't notice any slowdowns or lags whatsoever, but I would prefer 60 Hz eventually. Graphics performance is also a bit choppy every now and then but that doesn't bother me too much. The main reason why I'm replacing this laptop is that it's a workhorse that I use every day, and in my experience six year old laptops are more likely to fail than new ones even if they're Thinkpads And since my livelihood depends on this thing I really can't afford missing a week or two of work because it broke at the worst possible time.

I'm looking at getting the maxed out version of the T460s: 2.6 GHz Core i7, 20GB RAM, 512GB SSD, WQHD display, and will most likely be using it for at least 5-7 years again. These are the things I'm not quite sure of yet:

1. RAM
As far as I understand 20GB is the maximum the T460s supports right now, is that correct? I remember reading somewhere that it has either 4GB or 8GB soldered onto the motherboard, however I cannot locate any 8GB models. I'm assuming that at some point in the future it might also support 36GB, once 32GB SO-DIMMs are widely available and affordable, just like the X220 officially only supported 2x 4GB in its early days and now runs perfectly fine with 2x 8GB.

2. SSD
I'm expecting a 512GB SSD to provide enough storage space for the next 5-7 years. As we speak I have around 200GB of data, mostly documents, spreadsheats, photos, technical documentation in PDF format, and some music. However, should I run out of disk space in three or four years, how easy will it be to replace the 512GB SSD with an aftermarket 1TB or 2TB model?

3. Fan noise
My biggest pet peeve is fan noise. I can't stand it, and it drives me completely crazy. After Lenovo changed my X220's fan control with some BIOS update a few years back it's been driving me nuts until I found TPFanControl shortly thereafter. It's been fine ever since with the fan running at the lowest possible level at ~1,900rpm instead of the BIOS controlled mid level of ~3,400rpm when idle. How's the T460s in this regard? I don't run any longtime high load tasks on this machine, whenever there's anything to compile I use a significantly more powerful remote server. The applications I use daily for work are Microsoft Office, LibreOffice, Firefox, VMware vSphere Client, NoMachine, Putty, RemoteDesktop, and several in-house and self-written C/C++/Java Linux/UNIX applications, the latter either natively in Windows 10 or in virtual machines running Linux. I do run virtual linux machines regularly (RHEL, Ubuntu, SLES) to test software and/or settings but, once again, no CPU intensive tasks here. My X220 is at around 10% cpu load pretty much all day long, and the fan only spins up to audible levels whenever there are Windows updates to be installed or when Kaspersky's weekly maintenance scan kicks in. What level of fan noise and speed am I to expect in this idle scenario with the T460s, any idea? And if I'm dissatisfied with it, does TPFanControl work on the T460s as well?

4. Display
What scaling level do you use on the 14" WQHD panel? The reason I'm asking is that I'm running my external 4k display at 150% and the internal at 100%. With Windows 10 this means that half of the applications are blurry on the external screen (for example VMware vSphere Client, Putty, and NoMachine) whereas the other half is blurry on the internal screen (such as Microsoft Office and LibreOffice). The perfect setup would be if I could run the internal display at 150% as well, which would eliminate the need for Windows to rescale everything. Are 150% on an 14" WQHD panel feasible or will everthing be way too small/large?

5. Keyboard
In addition to fan noise the keyboard is also one of my biggest concerns. I've never used one of the new chiclet style Lenovo keyboards but I've heard both great and terrible things about it. I did love the 2012 MacBook Pro Retina chiclet style keyboard, though, and I absolutely adore the X220's classic keyboard. It's by far the best thing I have ever typed on. Which is why I'm a bit worried about the new keyboard - from what I've read it's fantastic for those coming from another brand and keyboard but ranging somewhere between slightly uncomfortable and JEBUS-CHRIST-CUT-OFF-MY-HANDS-RIGHT-NOW for those coming from the classic IBM/Lenovo laptop keyboard. Like me. And I like my hands. They're quite useful. Any input on what to expect here?

6. Misc
A few minor things:

Is the trackpoint still the same as it was? I don't use the touchpad for anything other than two-finger scrolling through long documents.

How's the display brightness on the WQHD panel - is it usable outdoors?

What battery life could I possibly expect in real life conditions?

What docking station do you recommend, since as far as I understand I won't be able to use my current ones anymore?

Is the wifi reception any good? Back when I've ordered the X220 I went for the improved three antennae model for improved wifi reception, how does the T460s compare to that?

Any other issues I should be aware of?


Thanks in advance, and I really appreciate any input.

[Pokrzept]

Ad.1 When it comes to memory capabilities PSREF says clearly that you can buy - as you have mentioned - an unit with an 4 or 8 GiG of RAM soldered to the motherboard and upgrade it with an additional module as big as 16 GB. Since Skylake ULV CPUs support up to 2 slots of RAM with an maximum total capacity of 32 GB im pretty sure that 32 GB sticks wont work at all. So please be aware that 24 GB limitation wont change.

Ad.2 As far as I know 1TB M.2 2280 SSDs are available allready so replacing your potential 512 GB disk should not be a problem. If in next few years there won't be another mSATA revolution and some brainiac wont decide to change slot design you should be fine.

Ad.3 I have no personal experience with any of T460 family so please read few independent reviews carefully to get an objective opinion.

Ad.4 Please be aware that no matter what display you'll pick as long as you use scaling under Windows platform you'll encounter plenty of problems with size and readibility of various applications. GUI scaling is an evil thing, and Pope shall start anti-scaling Inquisition .

Ad.5 The keyboard is one of these elements which you should test personally to form your own opinion. Especially when it comes to T460s/X1C which use different low profie keyboard with short key travel. Personally I do use x220, x230 and L450 on daily basis for last 6 months and I still prefer the classic layout/key travel. But hey - you can't always get what you want, there's no alternative on the market these days - Dell decided to move to chiclet style keyboard with their e74x0 series and lets be straight, any keyboard created by/for HP in last 10 years has been inferior.

Ad.6 Trackpoint has changed with the keyboard aswell, now the joysticks cap has lower profile and you can't use classic caps anymore. Also distance between cap and dedicated buttons has changed which makes (at least) me to keep my hands at palmrest on an different angle which is not really ergnonomical and may cause wrist strain.
The battery life shall be quite similar to the one you get with your x220 IF you use 44++ battery. Power consumption has been improved significantly but battery capacity has been reduced.

If I may put my 2 cents in the end, please consider different option - T460p (or T460 eventually). T460s bigger brothers support:
- up to 32 GiG of RAM in 2 module slots,
- 2 storage slots (2242 M.2 and 2,5" drive bay) which can solve your storage space problem;
- keyboard with a longer key travel and better press feedback;
- T460p MB uses i5 and I7 QuadCore CPUs which can provide really noticable performance boost when it comes to multitasking and virtualization. Please bear in mind that i7-6600U is only ~~20 to 25% faster in synthetic benchmarks compared to your i5-2520m, while i7-6820HQ is twice as fast as your current unit in multicore operations. Whats more you can order an T460p with and discrete graphic card, while T460 and T460s are limited to Intel 520 integrated card.

Summing things up T460s ain't much of improvement performance wise. You'll gain newer unit with a same weight but with better screen for quite heavy money pouch, and still you may not really like it due to the keyboard/trackpoint/clickpad stuff. If you do not need extremely light and thin unit please consider purchase of T460s bigger brothers. Whats more IF you can wait until february, Kaby Lake refresh should be available by this time.

[mj0]

Thank you for your answer, I appreciate it.

Truth be told I haven't considered the T460p yet but it does look very promising. While I don't really need neither CPU nor GPU performance just yet, and I also don't expect this to change in the years to come, the T460p does offer a lot more for significantly less money (similar configuration T460s vs. T460p: $1,844 vs. $1,484). I would, however, limit myself to the Core i5-6440HQ processor with integrated graphics, since I really don't need any graphics performance other than driving the external 4k display, and the 6820HQ comes with a dedicated Nvidia GPU by default. Which, from personal experience, I don't trust at all. I've seen too many dead Thinkpads and MacBook Pros that died specifically because of a dedicated Nvidia GPU.

I would lose two things compared to the T460s though, one that I could live with and one that might be a deal breaker. The big one is obviously mobility, the T460p is significantly larger and thicker than the T460s. That's the one thing I could probably live with though, since I'm working from home most of the time and only travel occasionally. I did travel a lot in the past six years, which is why I fell in love with the X220 early on. The other thing - the deal breaker - are noise emissions. I did find out that the T460s does supposedly turn off the fan completely when idle (YAY!) whereas the T460p's fan is always on, and also significantly louder than the T460s's. If what I read is true the T460p is louder when idle than the T460s when under load. On the other hand I wouldn't mind using TPFanControl, does that work with the T460p?

The problem with the keyboard is that I don't see a way to test it. I don't know a single retailer in the US that carries Thinkpads, other than maybe the Yoga series. Does that model have the exact same keyboard as the T460s or T460p, or is it completely different?

As for the waiting part: I'm in no hurry at all, and I wasn't planning on making a purchase anytime soon. Instead, I'm looking at Q1/2017 at this point, so you're probably right: might as well wait for Kaby Lake. Black friday is just around the corner though, and if a great deal comes along I might get weak

[sktn77a]

Just one comment - if reliability is your primary concern and you intend to keep the computer for 5-7 years, bear in mind that MLC SSDs have durability issues also. You might want to consider a smaller capacity SLC SSD for your OS and programs and either a mechanical HDD or an MLC SSD for data with frequent backups.

[aau007]

The only models that comes with 8GB soldered on board are the ones with the Nvidia graphics. Given that said, the Nvidia model is 0.3lb heavier per spec. Then you add a 16GB module to get to 24GB. This is as far as I know for US models. I believe if you go to Lenovo web site to do a CTO, you can get this with the 1TB NVMe SSD drive. Add the WQHD screen and you pretty much get the top of the line T460s. There are other restrictions on adding options like WiGig and WWan modules. I have a top seller model that only comes with 8GB soldered and a 512GB Sata3 SSD but i am waiting for the Samsung 1TB NVMe retail drive to upgrade. I tried the 512GB NVMe SSD drive on a X1 carbon and the transfer speed is like 4 times a Sata3. I got 2500+ on reads and between 1500 to 1800 on writes.

In top seller models, there are only 2 that comes with 8GB soldered. Both i7-6600U with Nvidia. One with Win10Pro and one with Win7Pro.

[Pokrzept]

When it comes to the soldered memory as far as I know, every single unit with an vPro CPU - i5-6300U and all i7s - has 8 GB module in it, at least on european market. I have had oportunity to check few T460s and thse units seemed to confirm my theory. Anyway I ended up with T460 anyway due to the lack of 2,5" slot and removable battery in T460s.

[aau007]

When it comes to the soldered memory as far as I know, every single unit with an vPro CPU - i5-6300U and all i7s - has 8 GB module in it, at least on european market. I have had oportunity to check few T460s and thse units seemed to confirm my theory. Anyway I ended up with T460 anyway due to the lack of 2,5" slot and removable battery in T460s.

Are you sure they are all 8GB soldered, not 4GB+4GB? Can you please post one of the model numbers? It should be 20f9?????? or 20fa?????? something like that. I just looked at the non US models i can see, only 3 comes with 8GB soldered and they are in MEA, EMEA and EAST markets. Just because it says with 8GB does not mean 8GB soldered since Lenovo sells T460s in 4GB+4GB configuration. If it is like you said "every single unit ... has 8GB module..." assuming they are all 8GB soldered, it will be so un-Lenovo.

[mj0]

Interesting. I cannot configure a T460s on Lenovo's website (http://www.lenovo.com) that would even have an Nvidia GPU, and all models have 4GB + xGB RAM, according to their configurator.

Where would one find a T460s CTO models with 8GB and Nvidia GPU if Lenovo isn't even selling them through their own website?

[aau007]

Lenovo web site is really weird. They might have taken it down because of supplies. It used to be there. However, you can google the following models below. They are top seller models available from channel partners but expect a 2 to 3 weeks lead time, sometimes more. You might get lucky on ebay but be very careful. I also suggest you get the warranty uplift 5PS0A22983, which is 3yrs onsite NBD, ADP + Sealed Battery. You should be able to get them below the $189 MSRP online. For 3 years, if you make one stupid mistake, it will more than pay for itself. Otherwise, just a battery replacement in 2nd or 3rd year will cost you more than $189. I put some ETA on each model for you. They are best estimate only, do not quote me. IMHO, the 005f and 005k because you get both Win7 and Win10 if you are not ready to hop on Win10 right away. Make sure you get an image of the drive and you can always go back to Win7 without problem. You can also purchase the Win7 restore CD directly from Lenovo under entitlement.

20f9005fus - WQHD screen, 512GB SSD, Win10Pro DG to Win7Pro
-- 10 days
20f9005hus - FHD screen, 256GB Opal2 SSD, Win10Pro
-- within a week to 10 days
20f9005jus - WQHD screen, 512GB SSD, Win10Pro
-- this will have the longest wait time, nothing in sight
20f9005kus - FHD screen, 256GB Opal2 SSD, Win10Pro DG to Win7Pro
-- a week

Then you buy the 16GB module, 4x70j67436 and do a DIY install. These are very available everywhere. You can buy 3rd party for a lot cheaper but I went with Lenovo brand so my entire laptop is covered under one warranty. It took me 30 min working in slo mo with some curiosity poking around.

Just be forewarned, the Nvidia model is about 0.3lbs heavier per spec and my experience is about 3+ hours battery life running High Performance power profile.

[mj0]

You're a genius, thank you! Since I've been on Windows 10 pretty much since day one (had to test drive it for work) and have had nothing but a pleasant and smooth experience I wouldn't mind the Windows 10 models at all. And since I'll be reinstalling Windows 10 Enterprise anyway the license it comes with is not that important. The WQHD screen is though, so 20f9005fus and 20f9005jus seem to be the way to go.

I'm waiting for CES now, and the T470s. I wasn't in a hurry to begin with, and fortunately my X220 is still going strong, so I've decided to wait a few more months to see whether the Kaby Lake models are any better, and I'll make my purchase around March/April 2017. Hopefully the 8GB/Nvidia models will still be available by then in case I decide to go for last year's model. Thanks a lot!

[aau007]

No, not a genius. However, i spent a lot of time hunting down the specific T460s model only to find out Lenovo wasn't even shipping the Nvidia model until June 2016. Along the way, i found a few venues on how to get my hands on one and happened to get one within a week.

You might want to rethink your strategy on T470s. If Lenovo makes the announcement in CES, it probably won't start shipping until 2Q 2017, with Nvidia (if they decide to keep that) in 3Q, like the T460s. Then you wait a couple or few months to let them work out the bugs and you are looking at late 3Q. Then you deal with the inventory issue.

[mj0]

You're right but the thing is I don't really need a dedicated GPU. Infact, it'd be completely useless to me and only one more chip that could render my notebook useless once it fails. However, I would certainly profit from more RAM and I'd be willing to put up with the Nvidia GPU for that. Maybe the T470s will have two RAM slots which I could fill with 2x 16GB, or it'll only be available with 8GB instead of 4GB soldered onto the mainboard plus one additional RAM slot. That's why I'm waiting - since I'm not in a hurry it won't hurt. Worst thing is I'll get a T460s early next year and save some money

[aau007]

You are absolutely correct. I now kinda of regret myself. I wanted 24GB so badly that i put up the the Nvidia and extra weight. I got so carried away with 24GB and I now realizes that i can probably do away with 20GB and could have saved myself some money, weight, heat, fan noise.

You can forget about 2 ram slots. Lenovo is not going backwards but hopefully they will have a 16GB soldered option to add another 16GB module and i will be upgrading again. Slim chance, LOL.

[mj0]

So apparently it was worth the wait. The T470s has been announced and as far as I understand all models will have 8GB soldered onto the mainboard, meaning they should all support 24GB of memory regardless of whether or not one choses the dedicated Nvidia GPU Then again it's also possible that Lenovo simply chose not to go into too much detail for the announcement and that the 8GB model will once again be harder to find than the remains of Amelia Earhart.

With Kaby Lake being slightly more energy efficient than Skylake the new models should also remain a tad cooler and therefore quieter than the T460s. That is if Lenovo doesn't change the heatsink/fan to something ever so slightly cheaper yet noticeably crappier Displays seem to be identical to the T460s, docking port remains the same, and instead of MiniDP it features a USB Type-C Thunderbolt 3 port. Not bad overall, I think I might go for it in February/March.

[bit_twiddler]

Just as an aside, I've been playing with a Skylake for the last month,
and have found that it has taken quite a while to become well-supported
under Linux. You'll need to run a late 4.8 kernel and fiddle with some
parameters to get the power management to run properly.

If you want acceptable power consumption with an NVME drive,
you'll want to install linux-nvme, available here:

https://github.com/damige/linux-nvme

I believe that Arch Linux provides kernels patched with linux-nvme,
but it is not in the mainline yet.

Of course, if you want to run W10 as the host and Linux as a VM,
it won't matter.

If anything, Kaby Lake will take even more time to settle down on Linux.

[mj0]

Yeah, I gave up the Linux on a laptop experiments many years ago. It's just not worth it. I'm running Windows 10 natively and Linux inside VMs. Works much better and it's much more reliable. But thanks for the heads up anyway