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ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

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ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#1 Post by BillMorrow » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:35 pm

just presented here without comment.. :)
By Associated Press October 29, 2018

(BIRMINGHAM, Ala.) — A McDonald’s customer is being called a hero after he shot and killed a masked gunman who opened fire inside one of the fast-food chain’s restaurants in Alabama.

The shootout happened at a McDonald’s in Birmingham. Employee Markus Washington said he was cooking burgers shortly before closing when he heard several gunshots. He said he and another employee scrambled into a freezer and hid while more shots rang out — at least 15 total.

“All we hear is like different gunfire,” Washington told WBRC-TV . “So in my mind, I’m imagining everybody is dead.”

A man wearing a mask barged into the restaurant and began shooting as the manager was locking the doors Saturday night, Birmingham police Sgt. Bryan Shelton told local news outlets.

A man who was leaving the McDonald’s with his two sons then drew his own gun and shot the masked man, who later died at a local hospital, Shelton said. The armed customer and one of his sons, a juvenile, were also wounded.

“Right now it appears the victim made a decision that cost his life and the father made a decision that preserved his and (his) children’s’ life,” Shelton told al.com .

Sgt. Johnny Williams, a Birmingham police spokesman, said Monday the father’s and son’s injuries were not considered life threatening.

Police did not release the slain gunman’s name Monday, and Williams said it was being withheld pending notification of the man’s relatives. He said police don’t plan to release the name of the armed customer unless he gets charged with a crime.

Washington, the employee who hid in the freezer, had nothing but praise for the customer who fought back.

“He’s my hero,” Washington said. “Because I can only imagine how it would’ve went if he wasn’t armed.”
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#2 Post by MikalE » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:44 pm

The Left doesn't want those type of success stories in the news. But they'll rant for days about someone that shoots up a school with an 'evil' AR15 and about "gun violence".

Not one of my firearms has ever been violent. In fact, I've never even seen one move without me picking it up.

Instead of focusing on firearms, maybe they should focus on violent criminal offenders.

I never hear of violent automobiles used in vehicular homocides caused by a suspected terrorist or drunk driver. I never hear of violent accelerants used in arson cases, violent baseball bats or tire irons used during an assault, nor violent knives when used in the commision of a forceable rape.

Only violent gun crime. I wonder why that is.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#3 Post by TonyJZX » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:18 pm

You cant blame news for covering when 11 people get shot in a church vs. what *may* have been prevented when someone kills an assailant.

But even given that its impossible to do gun restrictions in the US given theres no registration.

You can take away guns from the British and Australians since they had massive electronic rolls of whatever guns people had.

COps could go to peoples' houses and shake them down. That's impoossible in the US.

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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#4 Post by GomJabbar » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:01 pm

On a related note, several years ago I worked with someone (a gun owner) who also lives in Alabama. He related an episode in that took place in Alabama that he was a witness to.

One day my co-worker was at a car dealership getting his car serviced. While he was in the customer waiting lounge, waiting on his car, there were two women customers also waiting on their car, a mother and her grown-up daughter. If I remember correctly, there were some other customers in the waiting lounge as well. Anyway, suddenly there was a gunshot. This grown-up daughter was searching through her purse on her lap and accidentally shot herself in the leg with a small caliber pistol. She exclaimed: "I just shot myself!". An employee stepped into the lounge and went looking through the woman's purse to find the pistol. My coworker warned him that one person had already just gotten shot doing exactly that, searching through the purse! At that, the employee left the purse alone, and the police were called. I am not sure what happened after that.

I followed a blog for a time that was updated most every week with all the gun-related mishaps that took place for that week throughout the USA. Some stories were funny, but many were tragic. I haven't seen that blog for awhile - not sure what happened to it.

At any rate, guns are no panacea. If you own a gun, you possibly decrease some risks, but likely increase others. I used to own a couple of rifles and a shotgun myself in years past, but I no longer miss not having one these days. But that's just me. If you own a gun, please be responsible. For most people, owning a gun for protection is not all it's cracked up to be (IMO).
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#5 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:37 pm

I think that instead of fighting guns, we should be fighting the reasons that people use guns(mental illness, financial problem, etc.) to do harm. Theoretically I could use a Thinkpad 755C to do the same as a gun, just as the same as a sledgehammer, a brick, or hands for that matter. Just about anything is a weapon, just someone decided guns were the scariest looking ones of them all and decided to target them.

And unlike guns, these don't run out of ammo, but no one seems to be targeting these:

Image

I also think that we really should dig ourselves into TOO much of a political hole. No need for trench warfare here, that's what Twitter is for.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#6 Post by ajkula66 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:59 pm

Many decades ago, in a different universe and in a country that no longer exists...

We were taught in HS how to pull apart a pistol, a rifle and an AK-47. And - a little later in the course - to use the two out of three (no AK-47, just in case) at a gun range.

This was a part of the subject that we were graded upon and couldn't pass the year if we failed.

Everyone should know how to properly use a weapon. Whether they choose to own one is a matter of personal preference.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#7 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:52 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:59 pm
Everyone should know how to properly use a weapon. Whether they choose to own one is a matter of personal preference.
+1.

I think that is very valid, everyone has the right to protect themselves. The key is proper, and that is something that needs to be taught again, but its not like everything else is half-assed nowadays anyway.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#8 Post by TonyJZX » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:34 am

I'm slightly ok with countries having compulsory military service, say for a short time, 6 months to a year.

Saying that as someone who never has to do that.

I also put it to you that in times of a national emergency most countries will devolve into a police state and that they wont hesistate to confiscate guns.

For example, Katrina showed police dont give a crap if they feel like its a martial law situation.

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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#9 Post by BillMorrow » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:42 pm

one can only wonder WHY the 'LEFT' is so hell bent on taking weapons from the people..
i am not that 'one', i KNOW why.. so did the writers of the bill of rights..
there is a cost to liberty, the misuse of weapons is one of those costs..
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#10 Post by shawross » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:39 pm

Owning Guns requires people to be responsible, sane and balanced.

Especially with society in today's world 100% of the community are not suited to owning weapons.

America have created a culture where most think it is their God given right to own a weapon.

The consequences follow and it will probably get worse not better.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#11 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:51 pm

shawross wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:39 pm

Especially with society in today's world 100% of the community are not suited to owning weapons.
Well, putting the discussion about percentages aside, the concept of "armed population" seems to be working well in Switzerland...

Psychos and terrorists will always find ways to harm others, as we've seen in Europe over the last several years. No guns required.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#12 Post by shawross » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:40 pm

I remember when they championed the US President as the "Leader of the free World".

Your best and brightest is suggesting giving out more weapons and especially in schools to keep everyone safe.

I wonder how academia is taking to that philosophy?

Maybe all Priests and religious practitioners should be armed also?
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#13 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:59 pm

shawross wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:40 pm
I remember when they championed the US President as the "Leader of the free World".
That was always a laughable concept at best.
Your best and brightest is suggesting giving out more weapons and especially in schools to keep everyone safe.
Well, I don't know about "the best and brightest" - let alone "mine" since I'm not an American - but one has to spend some time in the U.S. to actually grasp the concept of why so many people own firearms, especially outside of major cities. By the time the cops show up to respond to an emergency call here in my wilderness, one is likely to be dead. That's why just about everyone in this part of NEPA legally owns some type of a weapon.
I wonder how academia is taking to that philosophy?
Academia is just as laughable as the entire sham of education in this country is.
Maybe all Priests and religious practitioners should be armed also?
I don't attend any place of worship, but I wouldn't have an issue with an armed priest if I did.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#14 Post by shawross » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:20 pm

ajkula66 wrote:By the time the cops show up to respond to an emergency call here in my wilderness, one is likely to be dead.
OK, I don't think that worked out so well in Minnesota for Justine Damond. It seems like many law enforcement personnel are too incompetent to own weapons also.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#15 Post by ajkula66 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:33 pm

shawross wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:20 pm
ajkula66 wrote:By the time the cops show up to respond to an emergency call here in my wilderness, one is likely to be dead.
OK, I don't think that worked out so well in Minnesota for Justine Damond. It seems like many law enforcement personnel are too incompetent to own weapons also.
One can always find stories with an outcome that supports their point of view. As for the cops, they are no better or worse than the rest of the society. Some are great, some are lowlifes and most of them fit neither category.

In a view of someone who's been living and working here for almost 20 years now, this country has *far* bigger problems than legal gun ownership. But that's an easy talking point to get everyone's adrenaline up in the election year. Which is every two years if one counts midterms. So the circus continues...
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#16 Post by BillMorrow » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:03 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:33 pm
shawross wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:20 pm


OK, I don't think that worked out so well in Minnesota for Justine Damond. It seems like many law enforcement personnel are too incompetent to own weapons also.
One can always find stories with an outcome that supports their point of view. As for the cops, they are no better or worse than the rest of the society. Some are great, some are lowlifes and most of them fit neither category.

In a view of someone who's been living and working here for almost 20 years now, this country has *far* bigger problems than legal gun ownership. But that's an easy talking point to get everyone's adrenaline up in the election year. Which is every two years if one counts midterms. So the circus continues...
well said george.. this and previous posts in this thread..
even though the USA has lots of problems millions are willing to walk thousands of miles just to get here..
we really need secure borders just like all of us lock our doors at night.. :)
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#17 Post by tdot » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:22 am

Sometimes I really admire you Americans.

Maybe if I was American I'd have a gun collection as big as my Thinkpad collection.

Lets look at Canada for a second - apparently the criminals here have no problems getting guns and shooting at each other in the middle of busy intersections. Even though weapons are illegal for anyone else. That I consider a gun control FAIL.

I still don't understand why it would be illegal for law abiding citizens,

But at the end of the day, I enjoy my free health care :)

(In other words, if it wasn't clear, I fully support your second amendment. People commit crimes, not tools/utilities).

One Canadian who is actually a republican, just don't expect the majority up here :thumbs-UP:

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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#18 Post by TonyJZX » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:22 am

I think many people look at the question of gun control thru their own lense.

I'm a reasonably competant person with no criminal record, no mental issues and generally stable life.

So I feel like I should be ok to own a gun.

But the flip side is that there's a lot of people a lot less responsible than you here and they too qualify to own a gun.

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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#19 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:27 am

The bottom line is that people intent on causing harm and/or performing criminal acts will always find a way to arm themselves, be it with a gun, explosive device or a vehicle.

Everything else is just government(s) finding excuses to control the population that they are supposed to protect, but have zero intent of actually living up to that task.

Never let a crisis go to waste, right ?
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#20 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:53 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:27 am
The bottom line is that people intent on causing harm and/or performing criminal acts will always find a way to arm themselves, be it with a gun, explosive device or a vehicle.

Everything else is just government(s) finding excuses to control the population that they are supposed to protect, but have zero intent of actually living up to that task.

Never let a crisis go to waste, right ?
Hey, if we can't give them security, give them false security. Its not like the government spends 3 billion dollars on the TSA, and its all a giant stage. I believe the FBI did tests on the TSA and 96 out of 100 simulated attacks pass through. Hey...it gives the passengers false security...mission accomplished in the eyes of the government.

Same thing with gun control and the like.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#21 Post by MikalE » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:56 am

ajkula66 wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:27 am
The bottom line is that people intent on causing harm and/or performing criminal acts will always find a way to arm themselves, be it with a gun, explosive device or a vehicle.

Everything else is just government(s) finding excuses to control the population that they are supposed to protect, but have zero intent of actually living up to that task.

Never let a crisis go to waste, right ?
Hear, hear.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#22 Post by jdk » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:58 pm

The second amendment is the right to personal self defense.

Frame it that way, and it's a different argument.

Using the term "gun control" is already playing in someone else's arena.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#23 Post by Omineca » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:26 pm

Well, I'm glad there aren't upvotes and downvotes here, because I'd clearly get a lot of the latter with this comment.

I grew up in Northern Canada and have experience with firearms.

I completely favour gun control. If you make it easy for the deranged and the criminal to use weapons, they'll use them. The odd time, some hero will have a gun too, but that's an anomaly. Gun control can't work perfectly, especially in countries where some states have very lax regulations, or if you live next door to one. But it works.

https://globalnews.ca/news/2378037/gun- ... d-compare/

Make all the arguments you like. I'll go with the statistics.

In addition, a few yokels with rifles are no guarantee of civil liberties when they're up against the U.S. Army.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#24 Post by MikalE » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:44 am

Ask the Russians how that went in Afghanistan in the '80's. Ask American soldiers how that went in Vietnam in the '60's and '70's, or the British in Northern Ireland.

Guerilla warfare is very effective tactic against an organized armed force.

Gun control is nothing more than people control. It worked out really well for Stalin and Hitler.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#25 Post by Omineca » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:23 am

MikalE wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:44 am
Ask the Russians how that went in Afghanistan in the '80's. Ask American soldiers how that went in Vietnam in the '60's and '70's, or the British in Northern Ireland.

Guerilla warfare is very effective tactic against an organized armed force.

Gun control is nothing more than people control. It worked out really well for Stalin and Hitler.
Granted, guerilla warfare can be quite effective.

But Afghanistan and Vietnam were proxy wars. The arms and ammunition were provided to the combatants by third parties. Likewise, the struggle of the PIRA was heavily supported by outside backers, with weapons smuggled into the conflict through international arms dealers. These were not weapons and ammunition stockpiled by average people prior to the conflicts.

The outcome for Joe Average with a few rifles is more likely to look like Ruby Ridge or Waco.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#26 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:41 am

Omineca wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:23 am

The outcome for Joe Average with a few rifles is more likely to look like Ruby Ridge or Waco.
There are so many variables involved here...but nonetheless, "resistance is futile" argument doesn't really hold water since whatever one has available is positively better than nothing in the case of a civil war, which is what the set of circumstances that you're referring to would inevitably lead to.

Take it from someone who has experienced a very nasty civil war first hand. Or don't.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#27 Post by MikalE » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:52 am

Millions of firearm owner have massive stores of ammunition as well as arms. Many at least as good, and many times much better than any small arms the military uses. I am one of those.

The American firearms owner need not be supplied by a third party or outside force as in proxy wars to the indigenous population. Those people had few or no arms to begin with, hence the need for supplying them. This is not the case in the United States.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#28 Post by mpcook » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:23 am

MikalE wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:52 am
Millions of firearm owner have massive stores of ammunition as well as arms. Many at least as good, and many times much better than any small arms the military uses. I am one of those.

The American firearms owner need not be supplied by a third party or outside force as in proxy wars to the indigenous population. Those people had few or no arms to begin with, hence the need for supplying them. This is not the case in the United States.
This discussion started out with a post referring to a McDonald's customer shooting a masked armed shooter in the restaurant. "ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment."

It appears some think a second reason is so they can gather up some friends and neighbors to take on a couple of platoons of marines with air cover, unmanned drones, artillery, intel support and yada yada yada and that this will result in anything other than simple annihilation. Are we thinking to take up arms against an administration which does not uphold the rule of law and the constitution? I don't think some folks with "massive stores of ammunition as well as arms" will be facing just some soldiers with small arms, or just your local FBI office. Let's let our political system, as imperfect as it is, play out. Likely it will be resolved soon folks.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#29 Post by MikalE » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:47 am

No one here has mentioned doing that to a sitting Government.

There are a lot of what if's, changing circumstances and locations, and too many variables to think that an outcome of a conflict such as this could be predictable.

But, it is the original reason for the Second Amendment.
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Re: ONE reason for the 2nd Amendment

#30 Post by mpcook » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:25 pm

MikalE wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:47 am
No one here has mentioned doing that to a sitting Government.
That's good news. I thought I saw reference to a civil war. But if we're talking about repelling the Russians, or some other enemy of the state, I am all for it.
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