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Tips for fair trading

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cadillacmike68
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Tips for fair trading

#1 Post by cadillacmike68 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:59 pm

NOTE: this was meant to be a post in the negative feedback section. (hence the remark about bible study).
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27046

But it can stand alone unless a mod wants to move it, which might be too much of a PITA now that it has replies.

Nice read. 6 pages with less than 1 page of actual complaints. I think my bible study requirement for the next 3 months has been satisfied.

OK, on a more serious note. Folks can buy and sell in a manner they choose, but as a buyer, I Still recommend what I posted earlier in this thread, and further do not recommend ever paying via paypal "friends and family" or "gift". If you do that you are specifically "gifting" the person at the other end.

My old post: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27046&start=60#p647248

If you are a seller and have a "business" and are concerned about having receipts that paypal transmits via a 1099 to big brother, then you need to account for your inventory in Both directions. If you buy a $1,000 laptop and later sell that for $500, you need to account for Both transactions in your accounting system. If you do not have an accounting system, you need to get one. Further if you receive a paypal receipt of $103.20 for a $100 purchase - let me do the math for you - 100 plus 2.90 (2.9% pp fee) + 0.30 (pp trans fee) = $103.20, then you need to be able to account for this as a bank / finance service charge which is what it is. If you can't do this then please go back and retake accounting 101 or have an accountant take tare of your books. Quickbooks does not make you an accountant, although it does help, if you remember And Follow GAAP in your business operations.

Yeah, ppal charges a lot more than the big merchants pay (as low as 1%) but the big guys have to commit to large sustained volume. Car dealers are notoriously cheap, they wouldn't let me pay any more than $3,000 deposit on a recent car purchase via cc, because it would cost them some $30.00 for that cc payment, but they allowed that much with no complaints.

So how do you protect yourself as a seller?

First get EVERYTHING agreed to ahead of time. Price, Shipping method, shipping cost, etc. Then, do what was agreed to.
Ship ONLY to a paypal buyer's REGISTERED PAYPAL ADDRESS. Paypal will offer you a measure of seller protection if you do.
ALWAYS ship tracked and insured for the full amount of the item.
If shipping international, ensure that the package is insured to its destination. Ebay has this expensive global shipping program. Stooopid expensive but they will support the seller if the seller uses it. You can insure international priority mail to europe and many other destinations.
Lastly, there are some countries that I just won't ship to, period.

Over the years, I've sold 1000s of cartridges, and always shipped them with full insurance (via UPS) Their default included amount was $100, but if it was more expensive, I Always paid the additional insurance cost. Never had a non-delivered package. I once bought a $1,500 collector Garand. It got crunched by the UPS conveyor belt system, but the seller insured it for full value and in about a month I got refunded.

Lastly if you don't feel you can trust the other person, just don't do it. You should be able to discern someone's nature by the wording and timeliness of their email responses, and this thread can help. It looks like the majority of issues eventually do get resolved.

In over 15 years, I've only had to file 3 ebay / paypal cc chargebacks; 2 got quickly resolved by the seller, and the third was just a case of flat out seller deception and that chargeback went through with ppal hitting the seller with a chargeback fee almost equal to the item price (it was a trashed $50 viewfinder for a Canon New F-1 that was presented as being almost new), and I sent it back to him at my expense, but he went off the deep end first. It's in my ebay feedback, but you have to go waaaaay back to see it.

With a little more time now, I look forward to filling some "holes" in my legacy Thinkpad systems collection (T, 600 or 700 series only) and will look here first.

Regards, Mike.
Last edited by cadillacmike68 on Sat May 23, 2020 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tips for fair trading

#2 Post by RealBlackStuff » Sat May 23, 2020 12:34 am

Bit of bull about that 'accounting' need.
PayPal does not report you to the IRS unless your annual sales are $20,000 or more.
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Re: Tips for fair trading

#3 Post by cadillacmike68 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:58 am

It's not bull.

I don't want to take this down a rabbit hole, but my point was, if you are getting 1099s from Anywhere and they include physical goods, then you need to properly account for them coming in to your business either as an asset or inventory and leaving, with all the associated basis factors detailed. You have to do it right (GAAP) and if you can't then you need to have someone do it right for you.
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Re: Tips for fair trading

#4 Post by ajkula66 » Sat May 23, 2020 10:57 am

cadillacmike68 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:59 pm

So how do you protect yourself as a seller?
You can't protect yourself as a seller. PreyPal will side with the buyer 10001% of the time even if the seller has undeniable proof that he/she is in the right. Period.

Selling anything online nowadays is a huge gamble for that reason alone.
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Re: Tips for fair trading

#5 Post by Droider » Sat May 23, 2020 12:01 pm

ajkula66 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:57 am

Selling anything online nowadays is a huge gamble for that reason alone.
Ditto

Might be irrevelant to the thread but i want to add my point of view for online selling.

I run a small but established company shop that sells phones, computers etc, new and used devices in Turkey for like 20 years. There is a law that lets buyers return anything in 15 days if they bought it online, new or used it doesn't matter. This is called "customer protection" :) For that very reason, i don't sell anything via local online selling platforms similar to the concept of amazon or ebay. Instead, i put my listings on a craigslist kinda website and advertise my goods. People has to come to my shop or they have to pay upfront and i ship the goods with insurance. Nobody gives a smallest darn about small shops anymore nowadays but people forget that it is these little shops that are within the community of people, not multi national stock-market big corporations... I give my full responsibility and warranty on anything i sell and always happy to accept returns or replacements if the product is at fault. However people buy new sealed boxed products and return them just because they please. Why would the sellers has to become a victim, it is beyond stupid for me. Where is the seller protection in this kind of situation ? None, customer buys new sealed product, uses it for 10 days and returns it as 2nd hand and gets fully refunded his money, sellers ends up used bs with financial and psychological loss.

The big corporations will easily subsidize their losses on these returns because they make deals with manufacturers. Small shops can't, the volume of their purchases isn't enough for deals like that. Anyways, i believe commerce isn't only built on money but also a trust factor between 2 parties. If one doesn't trust shopping from me, i am just happy to sell to the people who can.

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Re: Tips for fair trading

#6 Post by cadillacmike68 » Sat May 23, 2020 12:26 pm

"Anyways, i believe commerce isn't only built on money but also a trust factor between 2 parties. "

It all comes down to this. I've not had any issues selling, either using ppal or having a ck/mo for payment.

But I have been fairly careful about selling online. It's a Very small dollar volume for me. That is until I decide to sell off all the Canons manual focus SLRs and lenses, etc. that I've accumulated.
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Re: Tips for fair trading

#7 Post by kfzhu1229 » Sat May 23, 2020 3:55 pm

Well in my opinion trading locally in person can help with a lot of the trust. But your place might not be big enough to have interested buyers on your stuff. Then you need to sell online to expand the number of potential buyers.
However, since you can't physically track down the buyers and sellers, it becomes difficult for humans to trust this sort of things. And there are even less reasons to trust with the lack of hard requirement of putting any information that corresponds your account to yourself. I know that requirement isn't all that feasible in countries such as US but still.
Yeah it is known that ebay and PayPal will most likely side with the buyers, but even then a buyer can still get scammed by wasting buyer's opportunity cost (time). Have a look here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=130581
As an eBay seller and buyer myself, I can only do so much to prepare myself for these bad apples. But when you really do see things like a buyer asking for refunds and stuff when the item is already on the buyer's hands and is as advertised, you just have to see it as a loss.
On the other hand though, if you trade locally, especially in this pandemic (you can't really do thorough tests and such in this pandemic), with the lack of any customer service and such most of the time, there is also a good chance of you buying something that has like non-obvious scams and such.
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Re: Tips for fair trading

#8 Post by dr_st » Sat May 23, 2020 5:31 pm

eBay and Paypal overwhelmingly side with buyer by default, but if a seller has a strong case, they can usually get the decision reversed. Not saying it is impossible to be screwed over, but it's not an 100%-0% as some would believe.

And it's more correct to side with the buyer, unless there is strong evidence to the contrary; because money is money: once it's transferred, it can't be "defective" or "not as described" or "arrived broken due to poor packaging". A buyer in an online transaction always pays first, gets item later, so by design they are in a more vulnerable position.
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