Who here would buy an "X33"?

[bhtooefr]

Should we push for one? I'm thinking we should, because the X32 is outdated, but the X41 doesn't do a good job of replacing it.

So, here's what I'd like to see in an X33:

Dothan Pentium M, 400 and 533 FSB
Intel 915PM chipset
Mobility Radeon X300 (32MB RAM, maybe)
Other specs similar to X32

Also, who would buy a budget model, like this?

Dothan Celeron or Pentium M, 400 FSB
Intel 915GM chipset (integrated graphics - hey, if the X41 can get away with it...)
Other specs similar to X32

I'm not even going to try to guess a number for what IBovo would charge for such a thing. However, if they were to make one, I'd guess that the difference between the high-end X33 and the X32 would be similar to the difference between a T43 and a T42 of similar spec.

[bhtooefr]

Interesting...

Whoever said that they're not interested in the X33, could you please tell us why? (I forgot to differentiate between "not interested in X33", "not interested in X series", and "not interested in IBovo")

I see I'm not the only one interested in both configs.

I'm not surprised that there are people who don't like the low-end config - I do see a bit of an anti-Celeron bias here.

FWIW, I'm going to guess that the low-end config would be about as expensive as a similarly configured R52, maybe a little more (seeing the prices for an X32).

[jokerunm]

I wouldn't be surprised if an updated X32 is in the works, if their is enough demand. I'm betting it would be based on the X41, just thicker. (To make room to replace the 4200 rpm 1.8inch drive with a 5400 rpm 2.8 inch drive, and add bigger/better cooling for a non lv/ulv sonoma.)

That being said...the current X41 could be quite competitive if a 5400 rpm 1.8 inch hd was around.

IBM might have just decided to go for overall weight and battery life vs performance on the X series, and let their other series of notebooks pick up were the X32 was.

[shadowlight]

No way for me to be interested in an X33 comming from the X4x.

Please don't forget the other advantages of the X3x series:
- regular type of harddisk (therefor it doesn't matters how fast the
included hd is)
- firewire included
- CF-card reader included

These were the main factors, why I bought my X31.
And the only dropback is the GPU which is the lowest possible option for me.

So please IBovo give us a X33 with at least 64MB X300 (better 128MB)

[bhtooefr]

First, a 128MB X300 might not be as feasible, because it would then be discrete memory.

ATI sells MRX300s in the following configs:

32MB onboard - what I specced out, but wasn't sure
64MB onboard
No RAM onboard (to put your own RAM on)

Since there's not much space in an X3 chassis, the 64MB would have to be the "really high-end" option.

Basically, this'd be an X32 with a newer chipset (915 instead of 855) and better graphics (GMA900 for the budget, MRX300 for the high-end - instead of MR7000).

[staeiou]

First, here is what I think an X33 would be (a prediction, and kinda a wishlist):
Totally new chassis, with the legacy ports gone and room for an 8-cell battery a-la T43 and X41 with:
Type II PCMCIA slot and Type II Expresscard slot
Azalia sound system
Firewire, 4-pin
x300 64mb or GMA900
Bluetooth optional
Fingerprint reader optional
2.5inch HDD
3.6 lbs with 4-cell, 4.1 lbs with 8-cell
1.35"x8.8"x10.7" (slightly thicker than the X32)

I don't have a need for an x300, because I don't do 3d gaming. Any graphics card can display a desktop. Nor do I have use for firewire or azalia.

It would be very tempting to sell my X41 and buy a Rev. B X33 if it had the dual PCMCIA and Expresscard slots, an 8-cell battery, and (most importantly) the fingerprint reader with TPM.

But no, I don't forsee myself doing it if it did happen. I don't need the power. I don't need a toy to play games on, I need a laptop to work on. I view having a laptop that is almost half an inch thinner and almost a pound lighter more of an advantage than the speed/graphics power that I could get.

Really, it comes down to if you need an x300 or not. I don't. I am more than happy with GMA 900. However, the X33 would be a very good idea for Lenovo. There are many people who do want an x300, but don't want a T4x. I am just not one of those people.

[bhtooefr]

Why the Azalia? The X series is not about sound - they've only got ONE speaker, after all.

I believe that the X32 already has Firewire, FWIW.

As for ExpressCard, that one's tricky.

FWIW, the chassis redesign would make it an X50.

I'm beginning to think that IBM should fork the X series, so their lineup is like this (including old letters - current letters are in bold, proposed letters are in italics):

A series - 3-spindle DTR
G series - 3-spindle heavyweight DTR
I series - budget system
L series - Big ultraportable - descendant of X32 - it'd be the X33 we're discussing in this thread
R series - budget system
S series - Tiny ultraportable (descendant of the 701?)
T series - Thin & Light
X series - Small ultraportable

[staeiou]

Yeah, that'd make sense. The X series needs to fork, but I doubt a fork of the G series is needed. I rarely think about the clunky machines, though.

And the big ultraportable (your L series), would probably have two speakers, so azalia would just be icing on the cake.

[DrDan]

My dream X33:

The X33 with new guts and perhaps a tablet option:

1.86+ PM Sonoma
ABG and BT
7200RPM Hitachi 60 GB (a 2.5)
64+ MB Video RAM
Fingerprint reader
Still firewire
Tablet
4 lbs

I wish they had done this rather than making the X41 a tablet, though I have one on order. The HD is too slow, I need firewire, and dedicated video. Perhaps a T series tablet?

[bhtooefr]

G hasn't forked, and won't fork on my predictions. The current models are G, R, T, and X, and I'm adding the L.

IIRC, the G series is in itself a fork of the now-discontinued A series (note the lack of bold on A?)

Now I'm REALLY thinking the "L" series makes sense, with the tablet thing. It might break compatibility with X3 accessories, but if you consider that retrofitting a X design makes the UltraBase not work (I'm looking at you, the X41T!), then it's not too bad if ALL of the L series can use ALL of the accessories.

It kinda makes the X41T pointless, though.

So, my next ThinkPad will be the L40 (or the 41), I think. Voting on this poll should continue as it was, just remember that it may not be called an X33. You're voting more for the specs, now, though - not add-on compatibility.

As for your specs, DrDan, that'd match pretty closely with the "X33" high-end (plus tablet) specs...

Now, for the next question - if we're going to a new series, should it have legacy ports? If not, should they be on the UltraBase "L4"? (I think there should still be an UltraBase - if there weren't, it'd be a 12" T series, not a real ultraportable)

[jokerunm]

You guys are asking for a lot in a small amount of space. More stuff = a bigger tablet.

You've just designed IBM's version of the Toshiba M4 Dr. Dan. Get ready for lots of heat(uncomfortable to hold as a tablet in most cases)...and noway will it be four pounds.

For the tablet...IBM chose the slower low volatage Sonoma, slower 1.8 inch drive, smaller 4 cell battery, and integrated graphics to make the tablet small/lightweight and not be a space heater. Performance was obviously secondary.

Until Intel produces a 10 watt 2Ghz Sonoma, Hitachi produces a 7200 rpm 1.8 inch drive that uses the same amount of energy and prouduces the same amount of heat as a 1.8inch 4200 rpm drive, Nvida/Ati make a dedicated chipset/ram that takes up very,very little space uses less than 5 watts of energy and doesn't melt through the casing, and until Sanyo makes an 8 cell(yes, lots of power for all the stuff under the hood) battery the size of a 4 cell(you want it small too).....you will not have your 4 pound tablet of your dreams. Well, not a good one anyway.

My dream X33:

The X33 with new guts and perhaps a tablet option:

1.86+ PM Sonoma
ABG and BT
7200RPM Hitachi 60 GB (a 2.5)
64+ MB Video RAM
Fingerprint reader
Still firewire
Tablet
4 lbs

I wish they had done this rather than making the X41 a tablet, though I have one on order. The HD is too slow, I need firewire, and dedicated video. Perhaps a T series tablet?

[bhtooefr]

Hmm...

I wasn't really accounting for a tablet when I made this poll, because I thought that there already was the X41 Tablet, and the "X33" (or "L40") wouldn't do well as a tablet.

I'm still not sure on a tablet, FWIW.

I do think that a T43 tablet might make more sense...

[eigh]

i guess the only thing id update on the x32 would be a vid card (a better one in other words. i dont see it possible to get more than 64mb on that small of a notebook) and a 2.5" hd. while 2.5" would be nicer, it just may be to small to house .7" more hd space.

[bhtooefr]

FWIW, the X32 already has a 2.5" HDD - that's one of the HUGE advantages it has over the X4 models.

This would be a video card and chipset update, with some new models of processors added to the lineup.

[ragefury32]

My take? The X32 is nearly perfect as it is. If I am running Lenovo R&D I would concentrate on 2 strategies:

a) Push the X33 as a re-spin of the X32 board. Keep everything else (including the 855/ICH4M chipset) except the video chip. Most likely videochip candidate? Either a variant of the Radeon M9-CSP64 solution offered by ATi for embedded operations (pin compatible with the M6, and the cooling should not be that bad of a problem, although I would need to look at the thermal wattage numbers for the chip to say for certain whether it's do-able or not), or the Radeon Mobility 9550/32MByte, the same chip used the newest iBooks. Unlikely if the X32 "big brother" version does not do well in the market against the X40/41. Futhermore, if IBM was serious about giving the X3 "big brother" series staying power, the X32 re-spin would've gotten the M9-CSP64 already. Remember, the argument for embedding the M6 in there in the first place on the X31 is to boost 2D Bitblt operations, not for 3D. Is that discrete part really helping IBM/Lenovo sell X31/32s? I mean, if IBM went with integrated i855GME graphics on the 31/32, would you still buy it?

b) Push the X33 as a bigger X40, but with the 2.5" HDD, the dual memory slots, onboard FW400 and whatnot. The i915/ICH6M chipset is pretty much a shoe-in, but it would not feature an ExpressCard, since ExpressCards are currently meant as like a MiniPCI-like Multimedia enabler (read: HDTV Tuner slot). The video graphics, if we are really lucky, would be an ATi Radeon X300, but this might be ATi's HyperMemory version, which is better than integrated but not quite discrete.

The challenge for Lenovo is to really save on board real estate, reduce production costs and deliver okay graphics performance...not stellar gaming performance. If you think about it, most of the T41/42 lines were Radeon M7/32 only. NOT exactly great gameplay material there either.

[K. Eng]

I suspect that there will be no follow on to the X32. It is only a matter of time before 5400RPM drives become available in the 1.8" format. Plus, those who want discrete graphics will generally opt for a T series.

Despite this, I would consider an X33 with a 915PM or GM chipset, although I would most likely go with the GM. I hardly do anything 3D intense on my ThinkPad.

[bigscreen]

a) Push the X33 as a re-spin of the X32 board. Keep everything else (including the 855/ICH4M chipset) except the video chip

That would (almost) do it for me. I currently have a T40P which is to be replaced by year end. Should I go for a T43P or an X32/X33?

I use the Thinkpad as my only computer. Too many years I had to update files on two different PCs, I am happy that I can just undock the machine and have everything with me. That's why I want it as small as possible when traveling, and full size in the office. At my desk, the Thinkpad is always docked, with an external TFT and other peripherals. The X32 unfortunately doesn't handle the external TFT, because it doesn't serve the DVI port on the dock (not with that GPU, of course).

The X32/X33 is a kind of high-end model of the X series to me. I would not consider a low end model of the X33, if available - that's the X41. The advantage of the X3* over the X41 is for me: faster CPU, 2.5" / 7200rpm disk possible, larger battery (without sticking out at the back end) and finally: compatibility with the standard dock. Add a decent GPU, support the DVI port on the docking station, change the CF card reader to SD and you have made me the perfect laptop. And never, never ever, add Windows keys to the keyboard.

[bhtooefr]

FWIW, all of the advantages of the X3* over the X4* that you've listed would still be on the budget model. Basically, it'd have integrated graphics (which sound like they're faster than the MR7000), and a P-M would be an option, instead of standard. The slowest P-Ms that are on Intel's price list (1.6GHz) are the same speed as the fastest LV P-Ms on the price list. The C-M runs 1.3 to 1.6GHz, as well.

[ragefury32]

Oh, I don't know. Most of this thread is a highly theoretical "what-if". The argument for keeping the X3* around is really an argument against the use of Intel integrated graphics (not as powerful as you think, people. A Radeon M7/CSP32 discrete chip is still a better overall solution over the GMA900), against the use of the Dothan ULVs, and against the 4200rpm 1.8" drives. The argument for using the 1.8" is really power consumption at the cost of performance. The X3* was a nice machine that didn't cost too much computing power in the name of portability, but honestly, the X4* with the smaller size will be the harbingers of the future. Unless IBM decides to explore a machine that is power powerful than the X4* but smaller than the T4* for travelers, it's just not going to happen. if we are lucky, the T5* series coming out in 2007 or 2008 might have the X3* size. But we are probably not that lucky.

Oh well, while we are fantasizing, I would like to see:

a) X32pt
Now this would have been an interesting development. 13" SXGA screen on a retooled X32/X41t hybrid chassis made into a $3500 Professional TabletPC with 6-pin Firewire. 128MByte FireGL V3200 graphics, fast Dothan, good for drafters/Maya users. BUT in an engineering perspective, this machine would be extremely difficult to implement, since getting rid of heat would be a major challenge, what with the loss of the LCD screen as a radiating surface and whatnot.

Oh well, back to the T41p for me, then.

[Zeitgeist]

The X32 unfortunately doesn't handle the external TFT, because it doesn't serve the DVI port on the dock

Can somebody confirm this statement?

[bhtooefr]

Hmm... if it weren't for the "faster and more expandable than X4, smaller than T4" idea, the X32 itself wouldn't have existed in the first place... they'd have just discontinued the X31, and went straight to the X41, rather than releasing the X32 between the 40 and the 41.