T42 vs. T43 -- Update About Fan and Fan Noise

[nrj45]

Hi,
I consider my 14'' t43p as noisy since the fan "fans" very louder than the 7k60 hdd whisper. Though temps are not very high. As I'm writing this, my t43p is up for 2 hours, 800MHz@0.700Vcore, CPU at 42-43°C, room temp : 24°C. But the fan kicked in when the cpu was at 38°C directly at this ennoying medium rpm, making my thinkpad blowing quite a cold air. I was hoping much on the new bios release (1.22), but i did nothing.

As discussed in another thread (i can't remember), it's possible that the fan is triggered by another temp. sensor (not the cpu's one). I believe in this theory, because when booting my thinkpad (cold) once undervolted and once not undervolted, the fan will not start at the same cpu temp (like if another component is getting hot and requires the fan to turn rapidly to cold all the case and itself btw). But i can't see what other temperature controlled component is in a t43/p and not in a t42/p.

I'm quite disappointed with my t43p that doesn't want to eat any hdd other than the noisy 7k60, and is blowing continuously. I was hoping a release of the embedded controller or sth like that that would allow a bigger list of hdd to be used with the t43/p.

My hope is now in :
- a future release of chc that could drive the fan (since it's possible to drive the fun under linux through acpi, it could perhaps be possible under windows ?)
- a map from ibm/lenovo showing how many/where are temperature sensors in the t43/p. This could allow us to find which sensor is triggering the fan.

Perhaps one day our t43/p will be like fanless ? Let me dream

[zeus1q]

I know what is a quiet T43 since two of my friends' T43 are just as quiet as T42. It's definitely not noise sensitivity issue. It's too noisy that even a person with no sense can sense the noise

[censored]

I was planning on just getting a T42 (or T42p) and letting that be that. Now I have to wonder if I should roll the dice on a T43 again...I plan to run experiments on it, so the difference in performance is more important to me than it might be to most other people. Given the overall quality of Thinkpads, Lenovo should be more consistent than this.

[ifuleu2001]

I had high hopes about my new T43 but in the end I had to return it. Here is the story.

I waited 3 weeks before receiving the 2687DUU. This waiting time is normal, although it felt much longer as I checked the status of my order online at least twice a day. After some delay, Lenovo shipped it to me via UPS express. The machine left HK in the evening of Aug 3 and I got it on Aug 5 at around 10:30am. UPS is awesome!

I decided to return the T43 the very day I got it, mainly because of three issues.

1) The fan noise is no joke no matter how you slice and dice it. I'd say it is even louder than a humming sound and it is really annoying when I'm trying to get focused. I'm sensitive in this regard. But a two thousand dollar laptop should Not do that. I have a Dell 700m and the fan on that little machine works beautifully.

2) The keyboard really disappoints me! Why Lenovo can't stick with the gorgeous Thai NMB? One of the key reasons I want to own a T is precisely because of the keyboard quality of Thinkpad. The Alps keyboard feels flimsy and it is very noisy. Just put my hands on it without even typing, it starts to squeak! To speak the truth, this keyboard is still a lot better than industry standard (Dell laptop keyboard is a total failure). However, Thinkpad will lose a major edge if Lenovo completely phases out Thai NMB. This will not only disappoints new Thinkpad owners but also alienate loyal Thinkpad users.

3) This 15' Flexview display is dark even I ajdust the bright level to the highest!! If what I get is what everybody gets, I would say this LCD is flawed in design.

Thinkpad is a legendary brand. That's why there are so many loyal Thinkpad fans. Unfortunately, the fans are blowing away by Thinkpad fans. The three issues listed above probably have less to do with the change of company management than with the specific design of T43.

I still have hope with the Thinkpads. Just ordered a T42 in stock model. Should get it in 10 days. Fingers crossed.

[Inky]

Thinkpad is a legendary brand. That's why there are so many loyal Thinkpad fans. Unfortunately, the fans are blowing away by Thinkpad fans. The three issues listed above probably have less to do with the change of company management than with the specific design of T43.

I still have hope with the Thinkpads. Just ordered a T42 in stock model. Should get it in 10 days. Fingers crossed.

From my old posts it will be obvious that I am extremely picky about the screen and keyboard quality. I recently got a T42 and I am SO happy with it. I may end up having to join a support group for people who love their ThinkPads too much.

After reading countless discussion threads and articles about fan noise I concluded that the faster front side bus (533Mhz) in the T43 makes it hotter even at idle, and this inevitably requires more cooling--either a bigger diameter fan (louder) or a faster fan (higher in pitch). According to an IBM tech, the faster fan is the solution IBM chose.

What you have to do as a prospective ThinkPad buyer is to get a clear understanding about what is most important to YOU...Having the fastest processor with the fastest bus? Or, having a very quiet machine?

When I recently purchased a ThinkPad, I purposely chose the T42 with its slower bus, selected a model (M2U) with the quieter 5400 rpm drive and the smaller, power efficient 14" SXGA+ screen. I also ordered an extra Thai keyboard for forty bucks from IBM's Parts Dept.

End result? No complaints. I absolutely LOOOVE my ThinkPad.

At this point, I think some of the complaints about fan noise are coming from folks who hope to violate the laws of physics--selecting a machine that packs a very hot architecture (533Mhz bus, 2.13Ghz CPU, 7200rpm, etc.) into the tight space of the T series chassis, hoping/dreaming it will run fine without an agressive cooling solution. Eventually I plan to get a second ThinkPad. That one will be a desktop replacement with the hottest specs, and I'll accept some fan noise as the price I pay for high performance same as I do with a desktop system. Meanwhile, when I want quiet computing I can use my "slow" 1.8Ghz T42.

-Inky

[JHEM]

End result? No complaints. I absolutely LOOOVE my ThinkPad.

Yes, but how do you REALLY feel?

Regards,

James

[zeus1q]

After reading countless discussion threads and articles about fan noise I concluded that the faster front side bus (533Mhz) in the T43 makes it hotter even at idle, and this inevitably requires more cooling--either a bigger diameter fan (louder) or a faster fan (higher in pitch). According to an IBM tech, the faster fan is the solution IBM chose.

I'm not sure why you conclude that a bigger fan must be louder--I've used 120mm fans to cool cases and they are *much* quieter than 60mm or 80mm because they can run at a slower speed and still get the same airflow. Although there may not be room in the case for a much larger fan, I see no reason why, say, two small, slower fans could not be used instead of one.

Recall also that the fan often blows cold-to-lukewarm air. This indicates to me that the fan is cooling the thing when cooling is not really necessary. Sure, keeping the components cooler prolongs their life, but some of us have a strong preference for quieter operation and replace our laptops every few years anyway. My guess is that Lenovo set up the fan this way in order to minimize warranty claims from failed components a few years down the road, and this is also why they do not provide any way for users to throttle or adjust the fan themselves (other than the pseudo-control of the performance utility, of course).

From what I've heard, other machines using the Sonoma platform (Dell 6000, for example) are relatively quiet. IMHO, it seems like Lenovo really just dropped the ball and let the noise issue tarnish an otherwise excellent product.

[nrj45]

After reading countless discussion threads and articles about fan noise I concluded that the faster front side bus (533Mhz) in the T43 makes it hotter even at idle, and this inevitably requires more cooling--either a bigger diameter fan (louder) or a faster fan (higher in pitch). According to an IBM tech, the faster fan is the solution IBM chose.

I think a bigger diameter fan would result in a quieter fan behaviour (less rpm for same air flow).
I'm according to you when you say performance --> heat --> more fan. But when you reduce performances (by undervolting + powerplay to reduce gpu/mem consumption), the heat dissipation is no more than a t42 or others. To illustrate what I say, as i'm writing this, i've configured my t43p as follows :
- 800MHz at 0.700Vcore
- Powerplay set to max battery - min perf- LCD set to min
With these settings, the power sucked is (average) : 13.3 Watts (between 12.8 and 13.7). And the cpu temp is of 41°C.
1 : the fan is blowing at the same speed as when i'm playing (1866MHz at 1.164Vcore, powerplay set to maxperf, LCD to max, cpu temp 62°C). So there is already here a "stepping" problem. I think there MUST be some fan speed steps between 42°C and 62°C !!!
2 : my old acer travelmate (dothan 1.5GHz, 1024mb, radeon 9700 mobile) was also sucking about 13 watts, but with such settings it was completely FANLESS. The cpu was at about 50°C constant. The fan was starting at 56°C and stopping at 53°C. It was a 1500$ laptop. So with such a consumption, passive cooling is physically possible (or almost possible).
3 : it's perhaps just a personnal feeling, but i think this : the more the rpm, the shorter the fan life.
4 : if the T serie is a business line machine (most used in quiet places like library, classroom, conferences), the t43/p (the most expensive btw) has to be as silent as its brothers. Like if you are buying mint chewing gum each day and one day it tastes lemon.


Do the t42 consume much less than 13 Watts ?
If no, the t43 hasn't to blow more than the t42 when idling !!!!

T43p is a perf machine but it's also able to spare energy. So if the machine is flexible enough to allow this, the fanning system has to offer the same flexibility.

Summary : i'm happy with my machine except for the 2010 error message i have to escape each time i start the t43p (because of the use of a 100gb hdd) and this cheap cooling system.

[Inky]

I'm not sure why you conclude that a bigger fan must be louder--I've used 120mm fans to cool cases and they are *much* quieter than 60mm or 80mm because they can run at a slower speed and still get the same airflow.

I meant other things being equal. Obviously if you run the bigger fan at a SLOWER speed it will be quieter. Moving to a bigger fan at the SAME speed is what makes it louder. Moving MORE air with each revolution increases volume, literally. More revolutions per second is higher in frequency, literally.

The point is the 533Mhz bus needs extra cooling. If IBM were to increase the fan size they wouldn't drop the fan speed since the whole point is to increase the cooling. But in any event, IBM probably couldn't fit a bigger fan (or TWO smaller fans) in the T chassis so they went with a boost in fan SPEED resulting in a more NOTICEABLE fan sound. I think that is the key. A continuous low pitch drone is easier for the mind to tune out than a high pitched sound, especially if there are any variations in the sound that will catch your attention. And that's the problem. It isn't some ear deafening noise that's bothering people, it's the annoyance of having something repeatedly catching their attention like a flitting mosquito while they're trying to concentrate.

-Inky

[zeus1q]

The point is the 533Mhz bus needs extra cooling. If IBM were to increase the fan size they wouldn't drop the fan speed since the whole point is to increase the cooling. But in any event, IBM probably couldn't fit a bigger fan (or TWO smaller fans) in the T chassis so they went with a boost in fan SPEED resulting in a more NOTICEABLE fan sound. I think that is the key. A continuous low pitch drone is easier for the mind to tune out than a high pitched sound, especially if there are any variations in the sound that will catch your attention. And that's the problem. It isn't some ear deafening noise that's bothering people, it's the annoyance of having something repeatedly catching their attention like a flitting mosquito while they're trying to concentrate.

But if they could fit in a larger fan, they then wouldn't need to run it as quickly for the same airflow they're getting now with the smaller, higher speed fan. I also don't see any reason that, with a little clever engineering, one could not fit in an extra fan (just put it side-by-side with the existing fan, for instance--I'm not saying it wouldn't require design changes, I just think it could be done).

Regardless, I still feel that with the existing fan the system could be quieter much of the time. Maybe nrj45 is right about the "stepping" problem, or maybe IBM/Lenovo intentionally wrote the fan controller software to keep the system temperature particularly low to minimize heat-related failures. Whatever the reason, a simple throttling app shouldn't take them long to create, could come with a proper disclaimer ("may cause laptop to fail"), and would satisfy many of the people who have noise issues.

[stevepre2005]

You guys all missed my post....let me quantize this about my side by side comparison of a T43 and T42:

fan noise level: (regardless of T42 and T43)
0 -> no fan
1 -> lowest level, almost same level as the harddrive sound. very quet.
2 -> a little noisy, but still acceptable. Actually, it's still quiet.
3 -> definitely noisy
4 -> real loud
5 -> unacceptable

T42:
a. When booting up -> level 4 (last for only 2 seconds)
b. During booting up -> level 0 (no fan at all)
c. When temp goes to 43-45 *C -> level 1
d. When temp gees to 59*C -> level 2

If you want noise level to go from level 1 to level 0, the temp needs to go back down to about 40*C
If you want noise level to go from level 2 to level 1, the temp needs to go back down to about 51*C


T43:
a. When booting up -> level 5 (last for only 2 seconds)
b. During booting up -> level 0 (no fan at all)
c. When temp goes to 43-45 *C -> level 2-3 (I believe its something 2.5)
d. When temp goes to 59*C -> level 3-4 (level 3.5)

If you want noise level to go from level 2.5 to level 0, the temp needs to go back down to about ??? *C ==> ...I have tried very hard for this, but never succeeded. The temp just stays about 43*C no matter how many services I disabled. Oh....I did all this with CHC enabled with 6x at 0.7V.

If you want noise level to go from level 2 to level 1, the temp needs to go back down to about 51*C


SUMMARIZE:
1. The temp threshold for the fan to go up and down are the same for T43 and T42. However, the average fan level for T43 is about 2 (or 1.5) levels above T42.

2. You guys are arguing about the technology issue. However, do not forget that some people get a quiet T43 which behaves the same as T42. This means, it can be done. So for those noisy laptops, it's a bug..... And .... if Dell can make it, HP can make it, I don't think IBM cannot make it. There must be something wrong with either the controller or the hardware. I believe it's the hardware. Otherwise, they've come up with a fix already.

[hoya]

I sold both of my noisy T43's to two different buyers on eBay, and both are completely happy with the machine. despite my mentioning the noise issue (basically a disclaimer), both stated that the machine seems quiet. i think this somewhat 'proves' that the entire fan issue has more to do with people's varying sensitivity to noise in general rather than a manufacturing issue which affects some undetermined percentage of T43 models.

I would also like to point out that I recently started using an HP nw8240 with a Pentium M 770 @ 2.13 ghz, a 15.4" WUXGA display, and a 60gb 7200 rpm hdd. all of that horsepower is in a chassis measuring 1.1" in the front and 1.34" in the back (v. 1.2" / 1.4" for the 15" T43). I know the spillproof keyboard on the T series cuts down on ventilation, but guess what? the nw8240 ALSO has a spillproof keyboard and there's no annoying fan noise. it's not as silent as a Powerbook, but it's more in the league of the T42. you can hear some air moving but there's no annoying whine or other high-pitched sound.

as far as I'm concerned, Lenovo has absolutely NO excuse for this annoyance. they're obviously trying to cram faster, hotter components into the same chassis and it doesn't work. they need to add some more vents or make some major modifications to the design. the HP uses the 533FSB, etc., etc, yet their fan is MUCH quieter. oh, and the HP has 3yrs of onsite service all for $2300. of course, I hate the keyboard and the mouse buttons are driving me crazy, but at least the HP 'proves' it's possible to make a fast & quiet machine. period.

[Navck]

Some of us can be VERY tolerant of noise after we have a computer with 6 80mm Tornados in them (They're loud...)

However, its slightly annoying to hear the fan humm while I browse the internet at night (Well its an improvement vs my desktop for sure)
Even if it has some low RPM fans... That "WHHHRR" from the harddrive and fans is REALLY annoying on desktops...

[STS06]

Ifuleu2001:

You said you got a T42 and complained about the 43's 15" screen...did you get the T42 with a 15" as well? I just reordered and switched a 42p for a 42 (mainly price and the fact that I didnt' need a three grand comp- thast three grand after EPP).

I'm hoping that the 15" screen isn't flawed or else this means I have to call back and swap for a 14"...and piss my saleman off!

[hoya]

STS06 - the 15" XGA on the T series is slightly dim and of course the resolution is somewhat low for that size screen. the 15" SXGA+ is superb, both on the T42 and T43's that I've seen. no sparkle, no leakage, plenty of brightness, accurate colors, etc. it's an IPS LCD panel which they call FlexView, a big step up from the 15" XGA displays. the FlexView is ONLY offered on a T series with a 15" SXGA+ or UXGA display. hope that helps.

[ifuleu2001]

Ifuleu2001:

You said you got a T42 and complained about the 43's 15" screen...did you get the T42 with a 15" as well?

I just got my 15" T43 last Friday and I'm not that happy with it so far. I will probably return it.

I ordered a T42 the day after I got the T43 (Saturday is the no tax day here) and I should receive it sometime next week.

The 15" Flexview LCD is dim on battery power even when I ajust the brightness level to the highest. Again, this is probably more of a subjective taste issue. Many people may find it perfectly bright. I just find it kind of too dim when surfing the net in a darker place.

When I plug in the A/C power however, the screen noticeably "flashes" and it becomes more bright (this is when I have the highest brightness level on battery power). I really love the bright level when the machine is on A/C.

Other than this aspect, the screen is perfect. The 15" LCD on my T43 is made by LG.

[mysbca]

The 15" Flexview LCD is dim on battery power even when I ajust the brightness level to the highest. Again, this is probably more of a subjective taste issue.

When I plug in the A/C power however, the screen noticeably "flashes" and it becomes more bright (this is when I have the highest brightness level on battery power). I really love the bright level when the machine is on A/C.

You can change this either in the BIOS or with the Thinkpad Configuration Utility:
Thinkpad Configuration Utility -> Display -> LCD -> Brightness to High

This has been mentioned earlier in the first page of this thread.

[ifuleu2001]

You can change this either in the BIOS or with the Thinkpad Configuration Utility:
Thinkpad Configuration Utility -> Display -> LCD -> Brightness to High

Cool! I will try this and see if it works (I'm using a desktop now). Thanks!

[hoya]

stevepre2005 - how does the LCD on the T43 compare to your T42? I've read some posts about Lenovo moving to a higher quality Hydis panel for the T43, and I just wondered if there was any validity to those claims.

[stevepre2005]

hoya,

The LCD on the T43 is better than my T42. It's brighter and looks more comfortable. I did some comparsion, both on A/C, and the LCD on T43 with brightness level 5-6 is about as bright as level 7 (highest) in T42.

The LCD for my T42 is samsung. I saw some people got an Hydis panel for his T42, but I am just not that lucky.

BTW, on the noise sensitivity issue, since I had access to:
1. quiet T42
2. noisy 14 inch T43
3. two quiet 15 inch T43

So I know what is quiet and what is noisy....the nosiy T43 is really noisy...and as I said before, it's so noisy that even a person without any sense and sense it. Trust me, it's really not the problem of noise sensitivity issu.

[hoya]

BTW, on the noise sensitivity issue, since I had access to:
1. quiet T42
2. noisy 14 inch T43
3. two quiet 15 inch T43

So I know what is quiet and what is noisy....the nosiy T43 is really noisy...and as I said before, it's so noisy that even a person without any sense and sense it. Trust me, it's really not the problem of noise sensitivity issue.

Stevepre2005: I didn't realize that you had tried two 15" T43's. were they SXGA+? Pentium 750 processors? were they just as quiet as the T42? now I'm really curious to discover which 15" T43's are noisy and which are quiet.

I also noticed Lenovo has released some new T43 models, which they call "August 2005" ThinkPad T43's. I checked the TABOOK but couldn't find any differences. of course, Lenovo doesn't disclose the manufacturer of its cooling fans, so if there has been a change the tabook wouldn't reveal it.

[zeus1q]

Some of us can be VERY tolerant of noise after we have a computer with 6 80mm Tornados in them (They're loud...)

Do you mention your 6 Tornados in just about every post you make?

[hoya]

Stevepre2005 is right! I received a 15" T43 and the fan is QUIET!! The fan gets loud when the machine is booting or whenever the fan kicks into a higher speed, but after 7 or so seconds it settles into a very comfortable sound, nearly identical to my T42. This machine is one of the August 2005 models, noted as "NEW" on thinkpad.com. I couldn't find this exact model in the TABOOK, but there are several new August 2005 models listed in there.

I just ordered a 14.1" T43 2686M5U, which is also one of the new August 2005 models. I'll post my results as soon as I receive it.

[STS06]

I can understand people wanting to get the latest techonology but I don't see doing that at the cost of probably being dissatisfied or having to return the product and the trouble associated with it.

Besides the fact that the T43 has newer technology, there isnt a solid reason to get the T43 over the T42 that I have come across (if you have one, please state it).

I just got a T42 about a week and a half ago, so I have some time to evaluate it and return it if I please. So far, the computer has been great..very quiet and runs great.

I was contemplating returning it for a T43 a few days ago, but every time I think about it, I can't find a conclusive reason to get a T43, especially since there's an apparently good chance I won't like it. I haven't heard any rants about the T42, at least none that are comparable to the T43. I probably won't resale my laptop so that almost altogether voids the resale argument of the computer. Performance wise, an equally configured T42 will perform just as well as the T43 (so i have been told) and that the graphics card on the T42 is better. Now I'm not here to change anyone's mind....actually here more for myself ( i need to decide to keep the T42 or get a T43). So, having said all, do most of you agree? Is it really worth it to send the T42 back for a T43 only to say I have the "latest technology" despite the fact that the T42 performs just as well? Also I hear that the battery life on the T43 is lower....now when I say all this, I'm talking about out of the box performance....I don't believe in the fact that you have to tweek the computer yourself to get the results you initially anticipated when forking over the 2 grand or more.

Thanks for any advice you can offer. Without a conclusive reason to get a T43, I will stick with the T42....but if there is a good reason, I have no problem getting the T43.