Is this the begining of the end??

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LumberJack · #1 Post by **LumberJack** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:33 pm

Ok...

So we all got a chance to look through all the flashy photos and what not. What do you guys think? Personally there are some trends that seem to be taking the classic thinkpad style out. The layout, buttons and feel is begining to resemble an HP or Dell... and of course no longer just in black.

I hope the quality is up to snuff. I hope you can still buy parts individually instead of chucking the whole thing out when something breaks. I hope they don't get carried away with bells and whistles. I hope it never comes in pink. And most of all I hope to still buy a thinkpad when my x31 bites the dust.

Comments?

LJ

wackydan · #2 Post by **wackydan** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:40 pm

LumberJack wrote:Ok...

So we all got a chance to look through all the flashy photos and what not. What do you guys think? Personally there are some trends that seem to be taking the classic thinkpad style out. The layout, buttons and feel is begining to resemble an HP or Dell... and of course no longer just in black.

I hope the quality is up to snuff. I hope you can still buy parts individually instead of chucking the whole thing out when something breaks. I hope they don't get carried away with bells and whistles. I hope it never comes in pink. And most of all I hope to still buy a thinkpad when my x31 bites the dust.

Comments?

LJ

Seen them in person today... the Z-series are still ThinkPads, just different offerring compared to what we are used to. Remember... These Z's were initially designed under IBM and tweaked by Lenovo - not that it makes a difference, it was the same design team throughout.

The color offerring reflects the customer the Z's are targeting... SMB and Consumer.

have faith!!

Zak · #3 Post by **Zak** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:04 am

I'll have to see it to be sure, but I'm thinking the Z will be a Thinkpad in name only. Not only is it available in a color other than black, but it has a WINDOWS KEY. The lack of one, and the general layout of the keyboard are two of my favorite things about the Thinkpad, and they're ruining it. I know it's "just business" and they're "trying to reach a broader audience", but there are some things you just don't do. It would be like if Mazda stopped offering manual transmissions on Miatas, or made them front wheel drive. Of course, I think think the Thinkpad has been going downhill since the discontinuation of the 600X.

wackydan · #4 Post by **wackydan** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:38 am

Zak wrote:I'll have to see it to be sure, but I'm thinking the Z will be a Thinkpad in name only. Not only is it available in a color other than black, but it has a WINDOWS KEY. The lack of one, and the general layout of the keyboard are two of my favorite things about the Thinkpad, and they're ruining it. I know it's "just business" and they're "trying to reach a broader audience", but there are some things you just don't do. It would be like if Mazda stopped offering manual transmissions on Miatas, or made them front wheel drive. Of course, I think think the Thinkpad has been going downhill since the discontinuation of the 600X.

Fair enough..... But Customers wanted the windows key. They listened to them. The keyboard has the same basic feel and layout as other ThinkPads. I've owned or have been issued ThinkPads since 1995. I've had more perhaps then most normal users..... I don't think you'll be too disapointed by them.

Zak · #5 Post by **Zak** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:55 am

wackydan wrote:I don't think you'll be too disapointed by them.

I know they're listening to the majority of users, but they're tredding perilously close to the slippery slope to mediocrity. At the bottom, you'll find HP, Gateway and Dell.

When I first heard about the Z, I was expecting something very similar to, yet completely different from Apple's 15" Powerbook. What I'm seeing looks substantially more average.

pphilipko · #6 Post by **pphilipko** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:49 pm

Zak wrote:
wackydan wrote:I don't think you'll be too disapointed by them.
I know they're listening to the majority of users, but they're tredding perilously close to the slippery slope to mediocrity. At the bottom, you'll find HP, Gateway and Dell.

When I first heard about the Z, I was expecting something very similar to, yet completely different from Apple's 15" Powerbook. What I'm seeing looks substantially more average.

So, tell me, what makes the Powerbook stand out so much? Is it because it's the only laptop with an Apple operating system?

#7 Post by **K. Eng** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:17 pm

It's the minimalist design that is really eye catching. You won't find extra bulges of plastic or weird colors on a PowerBook G4. It's the same reason why the 4G iPod looks (to most people, I'm sure) much nicer than the Creative Zen series.

pphilipko wrote:So, tell me, what makes the Powerbook stand out so much? Is it because it's the only laptop with an Apple operating system?

pphilipko · #8 Post by **pphilipko** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:02 pm

K. Eng wrote:It's the minimalist design that is really eye catching. You won't find extra bulges of plastic or weird colors on a PowerBook G4. It's the same reason why the 4G iPod looks (to most people, I'm sure) much nicer than the Creative Zen series.

pphilipko wrote:So, tell me, what makes the Powerbook stand out so much? Is it because it's the only laptop with an Apple operating system?

So...why would adding a windows key lessen the quality of the thinkpad?

It's very much like saying that I won't eat red meat because I want to be "special".

#9 Post by **JaneL** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:28 pm

pphilipko wrote:So...why would adding a windows key lessen the quality of the thinkpad? :?

Because in order to acquire space for that Windows key, they have to change the size/spacing of other keys. The one thing that has remained fairly consistent over the years has been the excellent layout and spacing of the keys on the TP keyboard.

#10 Post by **GomJabbar** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:28 am

FWIW the Windows key means zip to me. I have one on my desktop, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've pressed it. I guess it must have a use. I just haven't figured out what it is.

Not that I really care.

Probably it's so Microsoft can put a Windows Logo on the keyboard.
That way there's no confusion as to who rules the roost.

pphilipko · #11 Post by **pphilipko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:42 am

nonny wrote:
pphilipko wrote:So...why would adding a windows key lessen the quality of the thinkpad?
Because in order to acquire space for that Windows key, they have to change the size/spacing of other keys. The one thing that has remained fairly consistent over the years has been the excellent layout and spacing of the keys on the TP keyboard.

That's an interesting theory. Well, I doubt any important keys will be "shrunk", and will have little if any effect on one's typing. It's feel of the keyboard I like, not the size of the Ctrl key.

bhtooefr · #12 Post by **bhtooefr** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:42 pm

While there are many users of the LEFT windows key, there are ZERO users of the right Windows key.

Most people who need a Windows key use the right Alt key, like Keyboard Customizer defaults to, no?

Why not just print a Windows logo instead of Alt on that key, and make the Winkey the DEFAULT function, and RtAlt the function activated with KB Customizer?

Kenn · #13 Post by **Kenn** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:07 am

I thought it was mentioned before that the Z was pure Lenovo - it wasn't designed back when the PC stuff was still IBM.

LumberJack · #14 Post by **LumberJack** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:47 pm

The addition of a windows key (although very dissapointing) is not that big a deal in my mind.

My concern is that this will lead to a trend that will eventually kill the traditional thinkpad. It will start with a windows key... then before you know it they will have tons of colours, and flashing lets all around and all kinds of other useless bells and whistles.

As for the mac... haha.. i don't think it's appropriate to go into that on this forum. Suffice to say it's products are more monopolising that MSoft.

Oh another thing... I am suprised that with all these changes that they still kept the resolution of the screens on the Z small... anyone have any ideas about this?

LJ

Zak · #15 Post by **Zak** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:24 pm

pphilipko wrote:So, tell me, what makes the Powerbook stand out so much? Is it because it's the only laptop with an Apple operating system?

The aluminum case is sturdy, yet the machine is very thin and lightweight. The overall design is tasteful - it looks good without being flashy, and the marketing department doesn't dictate hardware specs. It's a lot of the same stuff I like about Thinkpads.

bigscreen · #16 Post by **bigscreen** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:13 pm

and will have little if any effect on one's typing.

Hm... I tried to get used to it but I did not. I am a touch typer and the Winkey is in the way. I always hit it unintentionally when pressing the left CTRL key. There's no point in whining about the "good old times", but I regret the changes. The excellent keyboard with the missing Windows key was one of the reasons that made me buy my first Thinkpad. Now I can have a Siemens as well, not much difference.

Oh, that's actually a marketing tip for Lenovo: offer an alternative keyboard without Windows keys. I would buy it

wackydan · #17 Post by **wackydan** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:46 am

Kenn wrote:I thought it was mentioned before that the Z was pure Lenovo - it wasn't designed back when the PC stuff was still IBM.

Nope.... It's IBM with some Lenovo tweaks..... tweaks made by the same design team that was there as IBMer's before May 1st and are now Lenovo employees.

wackydan · #18 Post by **wackydan** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:50 am

Zak wrote:/quote]
The aluminum case is sturdy, yet the machine is very thin and lightweight. The overall design is tasteful - it looks good without being flashy, and the marketing department doesn't dictate hardware specs. It's a lot of the same stuff I like about Thinkpads.

And yet the screen lids are flimsy, always have been, and we've had a higher amount of accidental screen damage on any that have been in our environment here. Apple at times sacrifices durability for style.... And the screen on the powerbooks is just one example.

bhtooefr · #19 Post by **bhtooefr** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 8:28 am

I can usually avoid a Winkey, but if I owned a Z and didn't sell this X...

I would be SCREWED.

Now, my old Dell had the right idea for getting the Winkeys out of the way...

The Winkeys were at the upper right corner of the keyboard.

Unfortunately, I could never get the hang of the vertical Home/PU/PD/End block...

IAmTheEvilest · #20 Post by **IAmTheEvilest** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:41 pm

Possibly they will make a version of the keyboard without the Windows key? Didn't they make a version of the T-series that didn't have a touchpad for the purists?

bhtooefr · #21 Post by **bhtooefr** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:44 pm

Well... IBM sold a replacement case keyboard deck that covered up the touchpad.

The HMMs for these models only list two case keyboard decks, from what I've heard - case keyboard deck without fingerprint reader, and case keyboard deck with fingerprint reader. (Note: that's just a hole for the FPR)

I doubt that they'll make two different keyboards, either.

Michael1980 · #22 Post by **Michael1980** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:16 pm

Zak wrote:
pphilipko wrote:So, tell me, what makes the Powerbook stand out so much? Is it because it's the only laptop with an Apple operating system?
The aluminum case is sturdy, yet the machine is very thin and lightweight. The overall design is tasteful - it looks good without being flashy, and the marketing department doesn't dictate hardware specs. It's a lot of the same stuff I like about Thinkpads.

Are you serious about "sturdy"? I owned a 867 12" (also called the "firebook" because it overheated) and the aluminium dents very very easy. Just check out any 2nd hand als and see that most of them are in fact dented. Compare that to the T21's etc available used today and see the massive difference.

Back to the topic, I don't know. This is acceptable as long as the T-series remains the same without too many added new things.

ipXpert · #23 Post by **ipXpert** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:33 pm

The change in models reminds me of the Hummer story. The first hummer was solid, expensive, and did everything it was supposed to do. It could take abuse and had a very select following, Then it all changed. They came out with the H2 and every wannabe hummer driver jumped on the band wagon and got one. H2 is Chevy truck with a lot more plastic and bigger wheels. Now that every wannabe has purchased the H2, the H3 is out for all the wannabe H2 buyers.

H1 = ThinkPad by IBM
H2/H3 = ThinkPad by Lenovo

This is just my opinion that is based on no real data, just my gut feeling after looking at the Z. I hope I am wrong.

Cheers,
espresso
*T42p and X41 owner

Zak · #24 Post by **Zak** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:01 am

Michael1980 wrote:Are you serious about "sturdy"? I owned a 867 12" (also called the "firebook" because it overheated) and the aluminium dents very very easy. Just check out any 2nd hand als and see that most of them are in fact dented. Compare that to the T21's etc available used today and see the massive difference.

I'm comparing that to the T20 I'm typing this on. The one that has three cracks in the keyboard bezel and one in the screen facing. Like the Powerbook's dents, these are just cosmetic damage; the computer's functionality isn't impaired at all. Some might even say it gives the machine character.

#25 Post by **BillMorrow** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:28 am

espresso wrote:H1 = ThinkPad by IBM
H2/H3 = ThinkPad by Lenovo

i agree on the Hummer parallel..
since the H1 it is only a chevy truck..
which will not do the same thing a real humvee will do..

i will need to reserve judgement on the Z series being a "real" thinkpad or not, until i actually see one..

lets face it, the new chinese owners of the thinkpad and think center products must do something to make a profit and making something that is attractive to a broader user group is one way to do it..

so, i think that they will do that, like the i Series, there will be consumer thinkpads..
with all the colors and lights and (what is the current term?) "bling" it will take to sell thousands..

the only hope is that there will be different levels..
true thinkpads and phoney consumer grade thinkpads..

pphilipko · #26 Post by **pphilipko** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:50 pm

BillMorrow wrote:
espresso wrote:H1 = ThinkPad by IBM
H2/H3 = ThinkPad by Lenovo
i agree on the Hummer parallel..
since the H1 it is only a chevy truck..
which will not do the same thing a real humvee will do..

i will need to reserve judgement on the Z series being a "real" thinkpad or not, until i actually see one..

lets face it, the new chinese owners of the thinkpad and think center products must do something to make a profit and making something that is attractive to a broader user group is one way to do it..

so, i think that they will do that, like the i Series, there will be consumer thinkpads..
with all the colors and lights and (what is the current term?) "bling" it will take to sell thousands..

the only hope is that there will be different levels..
true thinkpads and phoney consumer grade thinkpads..

Looks like you already think the z series is utter junk!

It seems to me that since Lenovo has taken over, it's become "guilty until proven innocent."

bhtooefr · #27 Post by **bhtooefr** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:11 pm

As I understand, the Z series is part of the true ThinkPads.

The Y series (as in, Y200) will be part of the phony ThinkPads. However, they won't be sold under the IBM or ThinkPad brands. They'll be sold under the Lenovo brand.

They'll also have outsourced support, I'm sure...

pphilipko · #28 Post by **pphilipko** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:09 pm

bhtooefr wrote:As I understand, the Z series is part of the true ThinkPads.

The Y series (as in, Y200) will be part of the phony ThinkPads. However, they won't be sold under the IBM or ThinkPad brands. They'll be sold under the Lenovo brand.

They'll also have outsourced support, I'm sure...

I'm afraid I don't understand. If it's not going to be sold under the IBM or thinkpad name, how is it a phony ThinkPad?

Zak · #29 Post by **Zak** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:21 am

pphilipko wrote: I'm afraid I don't understand. If it's not going to be sold under the IBM or thinkpad name, how is it a phony ThinkPad?

In the same way that an H2 is a phony hummer (it's actually a rebadged Chevy Tahoe). It's a Thinkpad in name only. I don't know if that's what the Z will be or not, but I'm disappointed by the winkey and nontraditional look.

bhtooefr · #30 Post by **bhtooefr** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:09 am

Well, it'll fit into the "phony ThinkPad" category that Bill used, except it won't be a phony ThinkPad, as it's not actually going to be a ThinkPad.

Is this the begining of the end??

Is this the begining of the end??

Re: Is this the begining of the end??

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