T42 vs T43 3D performance (NO fan/heat/harddisk questions)

[coolsilicon]

Hello!
I'm trying to decide which one to get. I'm by no means a "hardcore gamer", I just want to run my future T4x Windosw 'Vista' with it's demanding GUI in a satisfactory manner. Since the GUI is supposed to rely on DX 9, a few benchmarks should tell us something.

One of the members here on the forum, aamsel, has contucted a couple of benchmarks: 3DMark 05/03/01 and Aquamark, where 3DMark 05 is the only one where the X300 is faster; by ~ 3.2%. In all other benchmarks the MR 9600 performs significantly better, ~32% in 3DMark 03 (which is a DX 9 enabled benchmark!). No typo, the differences in favour for the MR 9600 in 3DMark 03 is ten times the difference in favour for the X300 in 3DMark 05. For Aquamark: 19.575 vs 17.269 (~13%). Maybe the T43 performed that well in Aquamark becaus of its higher FSB/memory bandwidth, I don't know. You can look for yourself here:

http://www.notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=71767

Since these results are pretty clear, I went to ATi's site and learned that the X300 has a 64bit memory interface for both, the 32 and 64 MB version, while the 64 MB (and, of course, the 128 MB) MR 9600 has a 128bit interface.

To me this seems to be the logical reason for the findings of aamsel. The remaining questions are: why is there virtually no diffrence in 3DMark 05, which is DX 9 enabled too - and what does that mean in regards of 'Vista'?

BTW, I also found a link here on the forum to a site of a guy who actually installed 'Vista' Beta 1 on a T42. Unfortunatly he doesn't provide in depth infos on how well/fast the GUI worked for him. OTOH, this was Beta 1, by no means the final product...

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2577

[jdhurst]

You probably should wait until the T comes with Vista pre-loaded and certified. None of the T's I have used are Vista-certified, although T42 is as far along the curve as I am at this point. XP generally does not run as well as it could on non-certified machines, and I expect the same from Vista. ... JD Hurst

[kyrotech]

My syntetic scores are as follow:

all at 1024x768x32 noAA noAA

3dmark2001se = 11,940
3dmark2003 = 3,280
3dmark05 = 1,265
Aquamark3 = 22,160
Counterstrike Source VST = 58.90 fps
Unreal Tournament Botmatch = 54,25 fps

And lets wait for Vista Beta 2 to be released in november to test the GUI performance

[coolsilicon]

kyrotech,
the last info on Beta 2 I've read is: 16. December. This version of 'Vista' should give some more reliable infos on what the requirements are. Thanks for your benchmark results!

jdhurst,
I'm not going to wait til the final version of 'Vista' is actually out. I'd rather sell my T42/43 in a year or so. Beta 2 will most likely show what's up with the GUI and what it takes to have it run smoothly. One more thaught on this: I'm still believing in that MS wants as many people as possible to buy an upgrade. If I buy a recent machine now - and the T42 is a recent enough machine I'd say in regards of (graphics-) performce - I'd expect the new OS to run satisfactory on it. Maybe in a couple of weeks things become clearer.

[jdhurst]

Just be wary that the machine you may purchase may not do what you want with respect to Vista. Everything I have read says "new machine" all over it. I find XP satisifies me entirely and I will wait until my T41 is past it and purchase a new T certified for Vista. Just my opinion, mind you, and I am not trying to influence you or anyone else, just saying where I stand.
... JD Hurst

[coolsilicon]

Wise words and maybe you're right. May also be that even a T43P won't be sufficent and dual-core isn't to far away either. I havn't decided yet but if I do and it turns out it was completely stupid I can live with that. Whether I sell my current machine now or later, buy and sell a T4x now or later, I'm going to lose money anyway (though maybe a little less if I were not to buy a T4x now). Alright, have to leave and figure out how to get this [censored] printer to throw out some nice cash notes...

[NeoteriX]

What drivers are you using?

My syntetic scores are as follow:

all at 1024x768x32 noAA noAA

3dmark2001se = 11,940
3dmark2003 = 3,280
3dmark05 = 1,265
Aquamark3 = 22,160
Counterstrike Source VST = 58.90 fps
Unreal Tournament Botmatch = 54,25 fps

And lets wait for Vista Beta 2 to be released in november to test the GUI performance

[Conmee]

Neither GPU (MR9600 or X300) is necessarily sufficient. The limiting factor will be the amount of video memory more than the nominal synthetic benchmark performance differences. With the entire OS GUI in 3D, more video memory rather than how fast the core/mem speeds are, will determine how happy you will be with the new desktop environment.

The T60/T60p will most likely be Vista-ready from the general list of specs I've seen to date. And given that new ThinkPad product GA is generally in the Feb/Mar timeframe, might as well wait 5 more months to get something that could conceivably not have a HDD 2010 Bios error, quieter fan, and dual core CPU.

Of course, if you're going to sell your T42/T43 anyway and buy the latest TP in a year, then go for it. Instant gratification never hurt anyone... right? lol

Daniel.

[kyrotech]

What drivers are you using?

WinXP Pro - Catalyst 5.10 > Official ATI drivers modded using patje's mod tool

[coolsilicon]

The T60/T60p will most likely be Vista-ready from the general list of specs I've seen to date. And given that new ThinkPad product GA is generally in the Feb/Mar timeframe, might as well wait 5 more months to get something that could conceivably not have a HDD 2010 Bios error, quieter fan, and dual core CPU.

Of course, if you're going to sell your T42/T43 anyway and buy the latest TP in a year, then go for it. Instant gratification never hurt anyone... right? lol

Well, thats exactly what my psychiatrist said. Thanks for confirming her opinion. At the moment my decision is still under construction...

[xx86pro]

My T42-8ZU can get more than 10K points in 3D Mark 2001SE after upgrading the driver to Catalyst 5.10, while my friends' T43 can only get 7K points around.

[Conmee]

In another thread I've discussed using the Catalyst drivers alone and in combination with moderate over-clocking. Catalyst drivers absolutely help with benchmark scores and additional FPS with games on T Series. However, I'm getting 9629 for a 3DMark01SE score with stock FireGL T2 drivers. And stock drivers in an MR9600 equipped T42 general hit the 9700s range, so I'm not sure why you're friend is only seeing 7000s scores (xx86pro).

But the 3DMark2001SE benchmark won't tell you anything particularly useful when it comes to DX9 games or the new Vista GUI, since 3DMark2001SE is a DX8 benchmark. It doesn't test the advanced shader and other capabilities of DX9 GPUs like the MR9600 and FireGL T2. For 3DMark05 scores, which will test all the capabilities that will be utilized by DX9 games and Vista's highest-quality GUI settings, comparing 3DMark05 scores is probably a better indicator. In my case, my T42p (FireGL T2 128MB) has a 3DMark05 score of 971 with factory default drivers, while my T43p (FireGL V3200 128MB) earns a 3DMark05 score of 1553, or basically a 37.5% performance increase, both GPUs using default "out-of-the-box" factory drivers/settings, and default 3DMark settings. While both GPUs ought to be quite capable of rendering Vista's new GUI, based on benchmarks alone it is safe to say that the FireGL V3200 (and MRX600) in T43p/T43 models will provide a substantial performance improvement over T42p/T42 models. The MR9600 and X300 would be a wash, with most folks seeing benchmarks that seem to give the edge to the MR9600.

Daniel.

[Esben]

Has noone tried the FireGL versions with the later Catalyst versions?
From my reading, the Mobility Radeon 9600 is compatible with the upcoming Vista-interface.
Though, we won't get 64-bit execution from our Thinkpads.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Buy a T4x with discrete DirectX9 graphics and be happy.

FireGL>MR9600>X300>GMA900

[NeoteriX]

2093 on 3DMark03

T43
2GHz Pentium M
1 GB RAM
x300 64MB VRAM, standard clocking, latest Omega drivers, downloaded tonight

I'm betting I could extract a hundred or two more points if I actually terminated a bunch of programs that I still had running, and with some conservative overclocking

[Conmee]

I didn't run the 3DMark03 bench on my T43p, but my T42p with factory drivers and no over-clocking got a 2629 score... it got 3207 with the Catalyst drivers and overclocked at 396 core/243 mem.