z60m or t43p???

[romie7]

OK guys I know this topic has been touched on, but I really need help making this decision! I currently own a t42p that I am returning(warranty) and I can't decide between upgrading to the t43p, similarily configured z60m, or sticking with the t42p. The t43p has a 5400 rpm drive (why I have no idea???) and the t42p has a 7200 rpm drive like I currently have. The z60m also comes with the 5400 rpm drive. Will I notice a big performance difference by downgrading the drive? Currently I have 1 gig of ram but I will have 2 gigs on either of the new machines. Hopefully this will offset the bottleneck.

As far as the z60m, I think I would like having a widescreen wsxga screen, even though I love my 15 inch uxga with flexview. My eyes have been hurting lately from the small text so I had to increase font size. The main thing I am concearned about, besides the hard drive, is the size, weight of the z60m compared to the t42p/t43p. I would get the black top, not titanium, so this would help on the weight and dimensions a little.

Lastly, I know thinkpads are not hardcore gaming machines, but compared to the 128 ati firegl card, how does the x600 in the z60m fare as far as gaming. I would imagine it is better since the firegl card is geared towards business apps, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for the input

[fbrdphreak]

Hello and welcome to the forum

I own a T42 15" SXGA+ and I currently have a 14" Z60t & 15.4" WSXGA+ Z60m in my possession for review.

The Z60m is a lot larger than 14" T-series, and a fair amount larger than a 15" T-series. The biggest thing you'll notice is the thickness and length. This is not supposed to be as petite as a T-series, so if you're really stuck on the size of the T's I don't recommend a Z60m.

That said: the build quality is awesome, it is very sturdy and solid feeling. While it does weigh 7.3lbs with 9-cell, it doesn't feel very heavy to me. I'm a college student and taking this around campus in my laptop backpack wasn't bad at all.

The 128MB X600 can play Half Life 2 at 1680x1050 pretty decently. It was a little sluggish, but I bet if you used Omega drives and/or OC the GPU you'll get some nice frame rates.

As far as the hard drive goes, you have two options. First, you can go for the 80-100GB 5400RPM. These drives are still very fast and the higher areal densities of new drives help make up for the spindle speed. Also, sometimes Lenovo uses a Toshiba 5400RPM with 16MB cache; the larger cache on these drives also helps with performance (esp game load times). Otherwise they generally use the Hitachi 5K100 series. I recently did a 2.5" drive roundup and you can see the results here:
http://www.laptoplogic.com/reviews/detail.php?id=92

Now since the Z-series uses native Serial ATA drives, you will need to pick up a SATA drive instead of the standard IDE drives. Seagate, Hitachi, and Toshiba all have SATA drives; Seagate & Hitachi have high capacity 7200RPM's.

If you want the 7200RPM speed, I'd get the minimum drive size w/your unit and add-in your own 80-100GB 7200RPM.

I will have my complete review posted by the end of this week, full of pics & benchies

[dr_st]

I wouldn't be able to decide on what's the preferred thing to do without seeing the exact specs of all three machines (there could be a number of subtle but important differences) and how much each one is gonna cost you.

But without knowing all this, I'd rather stick with the T-series, unless you particularly care about one of the following:

(1) Widescreen form factor
(2) Dedicated Windows key
(3) Quality of internal DVD burner - the Z60m uses the Ultrabay Enhanced, which has faster burners than what's available for the T-series and their Ultrabay Slim

The advantages of the T-series to me are as follows:

(1) Size and weight (as fbrdphreak mentioned, even the 15" T-series are smaller and lighter than the Z60m).
(2) Flexview on the 15" T-models is better than the screen you'll get on the Z60m. The Maxbright may be just as good, but it's only offered with WXGA, which sucks, and availability is in question.

5400rpm or 7200rpm will not make crucial difference for 95% of the apps. Neither will 1GB or 2GB of RAM. But of course, the more, the merrier.

Finally, graphics card. The FireGL V3200 (T43p) and the Radeon X600 (Z60m) are exactly the same. Differences in performance here and there that you noticed due to drivers and optimizations are marginal and may be cancelled altogether, if you use different drivers (as suggested by fbrdphreak). The FireGL T2 on the T42p is somewhat weaker, but not by much.

I'd probably just stick with the T42p. As I said, I think the Z60m is overall less preferred, and going from T42p to T43p is basically "upgrading" to the same thing (chips perform very close to each other), which in fact may introduce some new problems: T43p runs a bit hotter, offers a bit less battery life and as far as I know is more prone to the fan noise problem.

[fbrdphreak]

(2) Flexview on the 15" T-models is better than the screen you'll get on the Z60m. The Maxbright may be just as good, but it's only offered with WXGA, which sucks, and availability is in question.

Actually the 15.4" WSXGA+ is quite good. The viewing angle isn't quite that of Flexview, but the brightness and quality is on par with Flexview. I wouldn't leave it down to 15" Flexview vs 15.4" WSXGA+ to make the decision, both are excellent.

[romie7]

exact specs and price:

z60m 2529EAU w/ 2 gig upgraded ram and 3 yr depot warranty @ $2510

2 GHz Intel® Pentium® M, Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional, 1 GB, 100 GB 5400 rpm, 6.70 lbs, 15.4" WSXGA+ (1680x1050), IBM Embedded Security Subsystem and Integrated Fingerprint Reader, Intel PRO/Wireless Network Connection 802.11b/g, Gigabit Ethernet, 128MB ATI Mobility RADEON x600, Multi-burner DVD Recordable
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

t42 2379RKU w/ 2 gig upgraded ram and 3 yr depot warranty plus upgrade to 11a/b/g Wireless LAN Mini-PCI Adapter II @ $2588

2.00 GHz Intel® Pentium® M, Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional, 1 GB, 60 GB 7200 rpm, 6.2 lbs, 15.0" UXGA IPS (1600x1200), IBM Embedded Security Subsystem and Integrated Fingerprint Reader, No integrated wireless, Gigabit Ethernet, 128MB ATI Mobility FIREGL T2, Multi-burner DVD Recordable
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

t43p 2687D5U w/ 1.5 gig upgraded ram and 3 yr depot warranty @2599

2 GHz Intel® Pentium® M, Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional, 1 GB, 80 GB 5400 rpm, 6.24 lbs, 15.0" UXGA IPS (1600x1200), IBM Embedded Security Subsystem and Integrated Fingerprint Reader, Intel PRO/Wireless Network Connection 802.11b/g and Bluetooth, Gigabit Ethernet, 128MB ATI Mobility FireGL V3200, Multi-burner DVD Recordable
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as the wider footprint on the z60m, I think I would benifit becasue I am a big guy and sometimes my t42p seems short on the width when on my lap. Also I'm an accountant and I think I would benifit from being able to open 2 windows side by side. Buy I don't know, I really LOVE my t42p!!!

[dr_st]

Wow, a really big guy you must be! I'm far from small myself, but my 15" T42 feels perfectly fine on my lap.

1680x1050 isn't gonna be noticeably better than 1600x1200 for opening two windows side by side. It's just 80 pixels (5%) increase in horizontal size...

Specwise, these things are exactly the same, I guess. Price too. You sure did your homework!

I'm just concerned about the portability of the Z60m. I haven't seen it, much less held it, but while the 15" T-s are portable for me, they are just about as big as stuff can get and still be portable (and some people already find them downright non-portable). Do you care about that?

Do you care about DVD+R/RW burning? Because the T42 lacks in that department, in comparison to the others.

Also, ask yourself whether you want the faster hard drive or the bigger hard drive.

As you can see, I'm just trying to point out the smallest of differences, just to somehow break the tie.

[fbrdphreak]

The portability on the Z60m isn't bad, but if you tend to pull your laptop out in crowded spaces (classroom, airplane, etc) then you will appreciate a T-series more.

One thing I highly suggest on ALL of these machines: upgrade the RAM yourself. DDR2 533 or DDR333 works FINE in thinkpads from just about any vendor, and I'd imagine its a LOT cheaper. Heck, 1GB DDR2 SODIMM's are under $100 each!!

Also consider the HDD, which you can upgrade yourself.

That may sound like a lot of "work," but it is easy and saves you some decent change.

My full review on the Z60m will be out at the end of the week, but I do REALLY like it. There is no major flaw with it that I can tell, aside from the size. You need to judge the size for yourself, as that is your major deciding factor.

Also, as the previous person pointed out, the Z60m has a decent 8x DVDRW which you will probably not see in the T-series for a while.

[christopher_wolf]

Well, I am a bit more mobile with my Thinkpad. So I would take the T43 if I were to pull it out quickly and start working on it. Although, Widescreen s *very* tempting for certain applications, it depends on the size you are willing to get. Between a T43p and T42p, there is little if any difference; they run about the same and I can say, having used both, that heat buildup is not a problem. The fan noise is present on both, not that both have it or don't have it, but just act the same when it comes to all-dy use. I have, thus far, encountered 15 other T43s, both p and non-p, in addition to my own and have only heard one that might have the fan problem. I don't think it can be said that the T43 is more prone to the fan problem as it seems to be a problem within the T series as well and depends on build date and many other factors. I have heard 2 T42s that have significantly different fan behavior than other T42s and T43s; also one T40 that was very quiet and had the fan off for the enitre day. The Windows Key for me detracts slightly from the overall image of the Thinkpad, but one could learn to live with it; although you do get more media options (Card Slots, etc) and an Enhanced DVD Burner. For a comparision, I am eagerly awaiting fbrdphreak's review on the T43p and the Z60m.

[romie7]

fbrdphreak,

So you're saying its possible to swap out the 5400 rpm drive with a 7200 rpm drive in the z60m. If I were to do this, would it void the warranty, and if so would there be a way around it, like keeping the original drive and swapping it if I ever have to send it in for repair. Do you think there will eventually be higher capacity drives that will work on the z60m?

[romie7]

OK guys, just got off the phone with a Lenovo rep. discussing this situation, and there is one thing to note here in regards to build quality. The Z-series is made of abs plastic on the bottom, NOT titanium composite like the T-series. This is comparable to the R-series which has abs plastic casing. Tell me what u think about this, I will be getting the warranty but I don't know how the abs plastic affects the feel of the z vs the t.

[dr_st]

Mostly it affects weight, I guess. I worked on an R50e notebook and it didn't _feel_ any worse than my T42. I don't think it's any more or less durable because of that.

[christopher_wolf]

If you are doing day-to-day ops, it isn't going to matter much at all. It is indeed cool to say that you have Titanium in your Thinkpad, but if you aren't going to use it...Well. I have tried out an R40 and an R50e, they both feel pretty darn sturdy as well.

[a31pguy]

ABS plastic? or the glass resin reinforced plastic? If it's the later - it's pretty strong stuff. I have a rifle that's made of it - and it takes a pounding without missing a beat.

I looked over the T43p specs and Z60m EAU specs. I opted for the Z60m primarily for the screen, wireless options, metal top cover, optional WWAN card, and Serial ATA. I'm wondering what the performance spec between the FireGL v3200 and X600 is. Both support DX9.

[emorphien]

ABS plastic? or the glass resin reinforced plastic? If it's the later - it's pretty strong stuff. I have a rifle that's made of it - and it takes a pounding without missing a beat.

I have a camera made out of the glass resin reinforced plastic and I must agree it's a tank. It will flex unlike a metal camera but I can come up with plenty of pros to it versus the heavy metals of most pro cameras.

[dr_st]

I'm wondering what the performance spec between the FireGL v3200 and X600 is. Both support DX9.

Considering that it's the same chip and the same amount of RAM on both of them, they should be within margin of error of each other in terms of performance.

[beeblebrox]

ABS plastic? or the glass resin reinforced plastic? If it's the later - it's pretty strong stuff. I have a rifle that's made of it - and it takes a pounding without missing a beat.

I looked over the T43p specs and Z60m EAU specs. I opted for the Z60m primarily for the screen, wireless options, metal top cover, optional WWAN card, and Serial ATA. I'm wondering what the performance spec between the FireGL v3200 and X600 is. Both support DX9.

There is absolutely no problem in using ABS. Carbon fibre stuff is only used to absorb the shock forces and the rest of the T-series uses plain ABS as well. Actually ABS is one of the most sturdiest materials, but beware, there are different types of ABS.
The Z-Series uses aluminum space frames to secure the mainboards for stability and from shocks, very much like F-1 racing cars, which have aluminum space frames and plastics around (ok, Ferraris could also use reinforced ABS instead of carbon fibre. But you can't tell that to the Monte Carlo folks , so... no ABS here. But cheaper commercial vehicles start using plastics as well).
In one of my other threads I posted a link to the official Z60 preview video, where the guy demonstrates the space frame.

[romie7]

ok guys, I went to office depot and took a look at the z60t, they did not have any z60m's in stock or on display. I must say, I was unimpressed by the z60t. I can't point it out, exactly, but little things that are different from the T series. For instance, the titanium cover is NOT for me. I though it would be OK before I saw it in person, but not the case. It gives the thinkpad a "cheap" feeling. It does look nice, but I think over time it will scratch. Also, it is just a snap on type cover, and can be peeled back it enough force is applied, or so it seems. The ultra-nav is not nearly refined as the T series. The buttons look cheap, as they are different. These subtle differences do give the Z series a different feel, and I don't think I like the widescreen.

After careful consideration, I wll be going with the T42 or T43P. Well, I guess now I have to make another decision!!!

[Teerex]

ok guys, I went to office depot and took a look at the z60t, they did not have any z60m's in stock or on display. I must say, I was unimpressed by the z60t. I can't point it out, exactly, but little things that are different from the T series. For instance, the titanium cover is NOT for me. I though it would be OK before I saw it in person, but not the case. It gives the thinkpad a "cheap" feeling. It does look nice, but I think over time it will scratch. Also, it is just a snap on type cover, and can be peeled back it enough force is applied, or so it seems. The ultra-nav is not nearly refined as the T series. The buttons look cheap, as they are different. These subtle differences do give the Z series a different feel, and I don't think I like the widescreen.

After careful consideration, I wll be going with the T42 or T43P. Well, I guess now I have to make another decision!!!

I wish I had made the same choice. I bought the z60t and it's just not the same standard as the T-models.

Rex

[vkyr]

Well, usually I would say it doesn't bother to take a widescreen Z-series model, as far as it's TFT-panel quality and overall build-quality would be in par with ...let's say some of the well known sturdy T-series models.

But from what I saw so far, the smaller Z60t for example -even it's pricy in most configurations- doesn't meet this much the overall T-series quality. The Z60t IMO has somehow a too dim 14" TFT-panel (not much luminant) and actually there isn't any option for choosing another model with a much better supplied TFT-panel. It's keyboard, trackpoint/touchpad buttons also don't offer the same feeling, beside the fact that I dislike that they ommited the well known colorings of those buttons. Also the Z60t display-case and case in general is feeling like a step down in quality from the usual Thinkpad business notebooks.

The Z60m in many aspects does look to me more sturdier build than the smaller Z60t series, but this one is again more bulky and not as small and easy to handle on the road. - However, the T-Series ist still the most attractive line among the Thinkpads.

[SpaRood]

The Z60t is the lightest and thinnest 14 inch widescreen laptop available now, is that right?

[ZL]

Looks Like my Z60M E9u has shipped and should be here early next week. I will soon post my thoughts first hand on the New Z60m.

[laughingtonto]

fbrdphreak,

So you're saying its possible to swap out the 5400 rpm drive with a 7200 rpm drive in the z60m. If I were to do this, would it void the warranty, and if so would there be a way around it, like keeping the original drive and swapping it if I ever have to send it in for repair. Do you think there will eventually be higher capacity drives that will work on the z60m?

I just did this myself on my z60m with a Hitachi SATA 7200 80GB drive. Simplicity itself. Haven't had a chance to run any benchmarks but I did a clean install with Windows XP Media Center Edition and everything runs fine. One tip: keep your old drive installation -- the lenovo site doesn't appear to make all the drivers that are pre-installed available off the web (audio in particular).

-Todd

[vkyr]

I've recently saw some Z60m test where some data measurements for one of those better configured Z60m models (...those with a P-M 2.0 GHz/ATI Radeon X600/titan cover etc.) had been made.

The WXGA TFT-Panel offered the following measured data results:

- Min. to max. Luminance: 30.0...242 cd/m²
- Max. contrast: 361:1
- Brighness distribution: 85,5%

Noice level data results:

Low load: 27,0 dB(A)
Heavy load: 30,0 dB(A)

Battery run time was: 6:01 hours


These are pretty good values for the Z60m and shows that this Z60m series model has on the pro side a quite good and luminant assembled TFT-panel, offers a well applied thermal design and also offers great battery run times.

So on the cons side for some mobile road warriors there might be only it's weight of 3.3 Kg and it's more bulky case in contrast to some other Thinkpad models, like the Z60t or the T-series etc.

[Teerex]

ok guys, I went to office depot and took a look at the z60t, they did not have any z60m's in stock or on display. I must say, I was unimpressed by the z60t. I can't point it out, exactly, but little things that are different from the T series. For instance, the titanium cover is NOT for me. I though it would be OK before I saw it in person, but not the case. It gives the thinkpad a "cheap" feeling. It does look nice, but I think over time it will scratch. Also, it is just a snap on type cover, and can be peeled back it enough force is applied, or so it seems. The ultra-nav is not nearly refined as the T series. The buttons look cheap, as they are different. These subtle differences do give the Z series a different feel, and I don't think I like the widescreen.

After careful consideration, I wll be going with the T42 or T43P. Well, I guess now I have to make another decision!!!

I wish I had made the same choice. I bought the z60t and it's just not the same standard as the T-models.

Rex

I bought my comp. via a 3rd party business-2-business in Denmark where there's no satisfaction guarantee on IBM/Lenovo products.

However, IBM has agreed to sell me a T43 and take back the z60t. That's brilliant service!


Rex

[romie7]

OK GUYS, THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!! MY BRAND NEW THINKPAD JUST FINALLY ARRIVED THIS PAST WEEK AND I HAVE OPENED IT JUST TO TEST IT...BUT NOW I AM THINKING OF SELLING IT. DO YOU GUYS THINK I WOULD RECIEVE A REASONABLE OFFER, CAUSE I AM THINKING OF TRADING UP==>T60!

t42P 2379RKU w/ 1.5 gig upgraded ram and 4-Year ThinkPad Protection upgrade and 11a/b/g Wireless LAN Mini-PCI Adapter II ($2,860.00)

2.00 GHz Intel® Pentium® M, Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional, 1 GB, 60 GB 7200 rpm, 6.2 lbs, 15.0" UXGA IPS (1600x1200), IBM Embedded Security Subsystem and Integrated Fingerprint Reader, No integrated wireless, Gigabit Ethernet, 128MB ATI Mobility FIREGL T2, Multi-burner DVD Recordable

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT

[dr_st]

You've got the best Thinkpad out there. Keep it. Then, a couple of years into the future, get a T61 or T62.

[DataAve]

OK GUYS, THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!! MY BRAND NEW THINKPAD JUST FINALLY ARRIVED THIS PAST WEEK AND I HAVE OPENED IT JUST TO TEST IT...BUT NOW I AM THINKING OF SELLING IT. DO YOU GUYS THINK I WOULD RECIEVE A REASONABLE OFFER, CAUSE I AM THINKING OF TRADING UP==>T60!

What about it that doesn't suit you?

[GomJabbar]

Because the T-60 comes without the TV out port (S-Video), I would not get a T-60. I would stay with what you have.

[romie7]

You guys are right. I do love this thinkpad and there is no real need to upgrade to the T60p. I guess I was just seduced by the new ati card in the T60p. I don't really use my thinkpad for gaming anyways, so I think it would be safe to stay with something that has already proved itself.

[DataAve]

Beat her up a bit (they do keep good value) then let everyone beta test the T60p, then get one.