T42, clicking noise question?

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skyline · #1 Post by **skyline** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:26 am

hey folks-

i don't post often, but when i do i've found this forum to be helpful in the past. i've tried to research the problem but with little success

i've got a T42, have had it for about 1.5 years now and love it. i only have one problem though, which is it when i leave the computer on for a while and it becomes idle it starts to make this weird annoying clicking sound very rapidly. it is coming from the right hand side of the machine under the keyboard. it has done this for a while now, probably at least for a year. when it starts i usually reboot the machine or give it a rest, but i'm beginning to wonder if this is the sort of thing that can get worse with time. so far i haven't addressed it and it does not seem to be getting worse, but not better.

i've read some places this migth be normal and other places that it is not.

any advice or info would be very helpful

thanks - mike

christopher_wolf · #2 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:34 am

Hmmmm; Clicking you say? Is it coming from the HDD?

skyline · #3 Post by **skyline** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:37 am

i think it may be the hard drive, which is what i'm trying to determine.

it seems to happen when the machine has been idle for a while. it also seems to stop and start at random.

its a slight rapid, clicking noise. sometimes louder, sometimes softer.

christopher_wolf · #4 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:00 am

Uh oh...Well, that could be an indication of imminent HDD failure. I had that happen to me twice on an old HP and Compaq; get the SMART Utilities either in NHC or as a standalone program and check your drive. If it makes a very characteristic and repetitive sound, then it could very well be the HDD. That could also lead to problems during boot up. So if SMART does find something is amiss, I would make a recover set of CDs/DVDs and a Backup/Image of all the data on your Thinkpad. HTH

skyline · #5 Post by **skyline** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:16 am

thanks christopher for the advice.

i'm not familiar with SMART, but i downloaded the free trial version and it says things seem to be ok.

also, what is a backup image?

christopher_wolf · #6 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:56 am

No problem. Ummm, trial version of SMART? Here are some links where you can get the "free version;" I haven't seen a trial version though

http://www.pbus-167.com/chc.htm
http://www.sofotex.com/SMART-Monitor-do ... 31525.html

You can use the IBM tools to make a set of recovery disks which you can use to load the install image of the OS and various utilties by IBM/Lenovo. You should make a copy of your data, i.e. Backup image, just to keep it safe in case anything happens to the HDD. If anything *does* happen to the HDD you have now, you can get another one and then use the recovery and restore discs you made to get an IBM factory "preload" on the new HDD. HTH

It is either that or a BIOS/Firmware problem; although that would be ruled out if you have the latest BIOS.

Well, let me just relate my experience with this issue...

I took apart the drives that went kaput on my old HP and Compaq and actually *discovered* what I think is a problem that might be plaguing other similar drives as well. The arm goes off the platter into a holding area, the "ramp"...Now, all drives have a locking mechanism to hold the arms in that position to keep them from swinging out during movement of the entire HDD. In this drive, IBM 40GB from 2003, this was a little catch that locked onto the back portion of the huge arm pivot. Thereby preventing accidental movement. The problem was that this catch was controlled by a little arm on top that moved back and forth via a magnetic solenoid; there was no problem with that, but the *only* thing holding the catch arm down was, essentially, the top case of the HDD itself. That was a very bad way to hold it down, naturally, it got loose and jammed; thereby locking the arm holding the heads on the ramp. It would try to read the disk, but would run up against the obstruction, and make a very characteristic "clicking" sound. Sometimes, it would eventually free itself. Eventually, though, this lead to a head crash on one of the drives. I discovered what I just described when I took apart the drive and analyzed it for awhile. I don't know if SMART can catch that kind of an imminent failure as it is a sporadic mechanical problem and not something wrong with the I/O or media on the platters or anything else of that nature.

darkwish · #7 Post by **darkwish** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:01 am

Have you upgraded the firmware for the harddrive? That's what fixed it for me.

Just download the ISO version, burn it on a CD and boot from it. Good luck.

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-41008

dvorak · #8 Post by **dvorak** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:48 am

It's thermal calibration, at first when the computer boots up, and then with increasing intervals. Totally normal and especially if it stops in a while and doesn't do that continuesly.

christopher_wolf · #9 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:55 am

Thermal Calibration? So the HDD re-calibrates its temperature sensor every now and then?

dvorak · #10 Post by **dvorak** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:26 am

christopher_wolf wrote:Thermal Calibration? So the HDD re-calibrates its temperature sensor every now and then?

Of course, you may notice, that when you first come home (for example) your laptop colder than when you've worked with it for an hour. Doing it calibration just once is of little use -- after a while it'll be out of tune again. And it'll do it while being idle, to not interfere with anything important.

christopher_wolf · #11 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:33 am

Interesting; I didn't know that, but my T43 doesn't "click" like that at all during the day while it is idle or not. I understand that it gets cooler if it is off, but why should it make a mechanical click if the temperature sensor, which is a solid-state device, is being recalibrated? All it would have to do is to pause all disk activity (a possible source for the click), then stay that way for a significant period of time as the surrounding material cools off to a level where it could "recalibrate" itself. In any case, I don't think that is what is happening here. If it is, then I am suprised that mine isn't doing it as well as my friend's T42 which has been used for some time. Solid state temperature sensors rarely need the kind of recalibration that requires the total cessation of a all heat producing process for prolonged periods of time.

dvorak · #12 Post by **dvorak** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:56 am

I don't notice it either very often, but that's just because I have music playing, other computers humming around me, window open, air breeze in my ears, what-not.
It's not the sensor that needs calibration, it's the track positioning calibrating, as the drive heats up, the platters also change in size, and to provide the fastest seeking, the drive occasionally seeks some cylinders and makes a note of the position difference from the last run.
About every 5 minutes for the first half an hour, and perhaps every half an hour after that that.

christopher_wolf · #13 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:03 pm

Mmmm, thermal expansion? I don't think so; the thermal expansion of the media platters on a HDD is on the order of 1-2 nm (this generally occurs around the hub and is not linearly proportional to the rest of the platter expansion), it should *NOT* affect the read/write ability of the head. Most of the thermal expansion happens around the hub/media interface and is taken into the design considerations of a HDD when it is manufactured. If serious enough thermal expansion is going on, serious enough that you would need to "recalibrate" where the arms thought a track was, than you are well over the operating temperature range of the HDD. I have worked with HDD designs and systems before and I have seen no such compensation for total platter expansion to such an extent. Also, I haven't heard any clicking from mine even when I am in a quite room and have been working on it all day; perhaps the drive in the T42 in question is just getting old and has gone through alot of work.

davidspalding · #14 Post by **davidspalding** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:19 pm

I'm totally skeptical of this "clicking is normal" ... never had a laptop, out of 5-6 that I've used, do this.

Just to be clear, the clicking is from the right side, under the palm rest? That's where the HDD lives. You (OP) initially mentioned "right side, under the keyboard" ... that points to the UltraBay 2000 Slim on my T4x. ... if in fact it is from there, try stopping the CD/DVD, and eject it.

If it IS the HDD ... do you have any settings in Power Options (control panel) to spin down the HDD after a certain time? IBM Power Manager profiles can also control this. You might try a setting other than the current one when you have this clicking nonsense.

Slightly off-topic, btw, but Software Installer had my TP at 1.32 ... Windows Update offered me Lenovo Power Management 1.33. I have no idea what it fixes, but I've been working for 2-3 hours without problems after installing it this morning.

#15 Post by **Johan** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:00 am

First of all: Happy New Year, everyone!

Mike; with respect to your problem, you don't tell what specific harddrive is in your T42, but the discussion in this link:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight= (issue: "Annoying Clicking Sound Problem with T43p")

may perhaps be of interest, if it is a Hitachi drive.

Kind regards,

Johan

dvorak · #16 Post by **dvorak** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:10 am

christopher_wolf wrote:Mmmm, thermal expansion? I don't think so;

Well, I'd still bet on calibration, even with embedded servo, which we're dealing here, occours some calibration. If Hitachi uses some other methods, I'd be happy to read about them.
But then again, I have little knowledge on how audible *this* case's clicking is, so I admit it might as well be some sign of failure.

To not waste time speculating, one should just run a drive fitness test to test any failure dangers.

skyline · #17 Post by **skyline** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:58 pm

hey everybody

thank you all for the help so far. this place is great.

i've taken everything into consideration and i still don't know what it is. i'll probably end up calling IBM soon. it's under warranty.

the thing is, the noise is inconsistent. various frequencies and volumes. but in general, it only comes after the machine has been on for a while and idle for some period of time. also, to clear things up. i'm quite sure it isn't a normal "working" machien noise, as i've had other laptops that do make clicking noises and stuff. this is a very audible, very annoying clicking.

i'm gonna look into some of the stuff mentioned above more. i'll get back to you with results after i figure out how to use this SMART thing

darkwish · #18 Post by **darkwish** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:41 am

Did you try the firmware update that I mentioned?

#19 Post by **Johan** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:30 am

Mike:

In case you do have a Hitachi drive, you may find the Hitachi "Drive Fitness Test" useful - get it at:

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm

It seems that it has helped others to quiet their drive - see e.g.: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/free ... 04863.html

For similar tools for other brand harddisks, check these tools:

Fujitsu: "Diagnostic Tool Ver. 6.3" -> http://www.fcpa.com/support/hard-drives ... ities.html

Seagate: "SeaTool" -> http://www.seagate.com/support/seatools/

Also, you may want to check this link: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... tness+test (Subject: "Hard Drive Fitness Test").

Please report back your findings and recommendations here for other - future - ThinkPad users, who might one day experience the same problem.

Best regards

Johan

skyline · #20 Post by **skyline** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:33 pm

johan/darkwish- thanks

i jsut talked to IBM on the phone today. they had me run the diagnostic test that you get to via the F11 key when you turn the computer on. they told me it checked the hard drive and other hardware and everything checked out fine. they also had me take out the slim bay and the hard drive and put them back in and tonight i'm gonna blow some compressed air into the fan vent.

anyway, i'm sure none of this did anything. i'm not sure what the diagnostic test actually does, but over the next couple days i am going to run the hitachi disc test, because i indeed have a hitachi. i'm having some trouble starting it up though. the help .pdf thing does not really include instructions for running the test on a CD. i don't have the capacity to make a diskette

i need to figure this out

T42, clicking noise question?

T42, clicking noise question?

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