Real Handhelds (clamshell & keyboard Mobile PCs)

[BruisedQuasar]

I must have five to seven PCs for various business & personal uses. After wasting thousands of dollars a year on new systems, I decided to switch to refurbished.

For six years now, I buy and use only unique model refurbished desktop, notebook and handheld PCs. I have two good Dell systems I got directly from Dell for under $400 each (not cheap Dell systems). Two years no problems. I gave a used Compaq PIII 700 notebook to my youngest daughter that I used three years. With added memory it makes a great home and internet PC for her. (she can easily bring it too me for maintenance)

I abandoned lug-a-bout desktop ("notebook") PCs, incorrectly labelled "Mobile", over a year ago. Instead I have refurbished HP Jornada 680 and NEC 728 enterprise handhelds (which are slightly under 2 pound & run 8 hours on a single charge) Both are super mobile devices with practical keyboards (and cost me a tiny fraction of new retail (Under $150 each!). For the women in the family, I bought and modified the ever flexible Casio BE-300 PDA for solitaire and book storage & reading.

In October, I bought a refurbished (hardly used) Thinkpad T23 from tigerdirect for under $380 and love it. I added 256 PNY memory and it races around faster than many new department store desktop PCs.

I never leave the house with a lug-a-bout any more but I find them useful for moving about the house and for using in the easy chair during TV commercials. I consider notebook PCs home mobile wi-fi internet machines, or a portable desktop, which is what they actually are.

When I want real mobility for libraries, on the road, etc, a clamshell handheld (jornada 680 through 728, NEC mobilepro 720 through 900c) is the true mobile system. I have my NEC out of the hipsack, open and ready to use by the time I sit down and I am not chained to a public table once I am using my PC. When I need to move (restroom, book stacks) I just close the NEC. It powers down automatically and it is exactly and instantly where I left off, when I reopen it.

Meanwhile, I chuckle as the students and professors invest 15 minutes or more unpacking, setting up and booting their lug-a-bouts and loading their programs. Mine are either permanently embeded in flash ROM or on CF Card and I do not have a sensitive monitor to crack or any moving parts to fail and replace. Better yet, I have 8 hours of battery to use.

[Temetka]

There is a ton of those HP Jornada 680's on e-bay right now. Thinking about picking one up. A few questions though:

1. What is the max anmount of storage that can be added?
2. Can I use a standard PCMCIA wireless card?
3. Can I use a CF/MMC card to store documents?
4. What kind of carrying case is recommended?

I also looked that the NEC MobilePro devices. They seem rather nice, but a bit more than I want to spend (around $125 total).

Didn't Sony make a machine like these also? I would like to do some research before I go spending money.

[asiafish]

After reading this thread I just went onto eBay and ordered a Jornada 680 WITH wifi PC card. I'm a bit concerned by the mere 16MB of ram, but I have a 256MB CF card waiting, or if that turns out to be overkill will use the 32MB that came with my camera.

It also came with a leather case, and I ordered a stylus (the one I bought is missing the stylus).

I should have this rig next week sometime and am anxious to try it out. Not really sure when or where I would use it as I already have a pair of X-series laptops that are small and light enough to take with me. I might use it for short trips or when I just don't feel like bothering with a laptop.

I figure for the $90 this thing cost me, if I find that I don't care for it or don't use it I can just re-eBay it for the about what I paid. I love things that are fully depreciated.

Now for hte important part, how far out-of-date is the OS on this thing? Can I synchronize it using the newer ActiveSync instead of Windows CE services? Are the buit-in applications good enough for real work? Could I, for instance, upload a chapter of the novel I'm working on, add/change it on this device, and not find my footnotes stripped away when I send it back to the PC? Is the email client good enough for modern email services? Can I put a few diversion type games on it?

[BruisedQuasar]

To get detailed answers to your questions about the discontinued NEC and Jornada lines of enterprise clam shell design, handheld PCs you want to visit the main user site for these devices.

hpcfactor.com

Some, but not all, of the core members are arrogant & have vested interests mixed in with their "advice". but most of the users are helpful & friendly.

An example: I warn new users that usedhandhelds.com may be helpful and they are quality resellers of NECs, Jornada, and accessories but their prices are rediculously high, even for repairs. About four regular HPCFactor participants flame anyone who dare to criticize certain sellers like usedhandhelds.com

They also belittle high quality major competitors (like paige, a major eBay handheld wifi and device reseller) without knowing a anything about them. Paige by the way is knowledgeable, gives excellent advice about wifi, etc His products are high quality and his prices are excellent.

Having advised you of this one draw back, I still highly recommend hpcfactor for anyone interested in buying, maintaining and using a true mobile device.

The main difference between NEC 780 through 900c and Jornada 680 through 728 is size. My Jornada 680 was the first mobile PC that has a keyboard large enough for me to enter data, type, at a practical speed. I have large hands but using a two finger approach, I can type rather fast on a Jornada. The NEC is about as small as a PC can get and still have a true touch type keyboard. I can two-hand type on my NEC 780 & my 790.
Like the Jornadas, it has about 8 hour use time per charge and I can easily fit it into a hipsack. In contrast, the Jornadas fit into a big shirt pocket, easily into a coat pocket.

Both handheld lines were made for and marketed to enterprises, so both are high quality mobile PCs. Of the two, the Jornadas are better made. For instance, the Jornada cases are solid and high quality. The NEC cases have a few weak spots; The only one that calls for caution is the case spot around the PC Card slot. I compensate for it by keeping a PC to CF card adapter in it when I do not actually have a PC Card in the slot. Concern? That I may eventually crack the case over the slot when I pick up the NEC Having something in the slot resolves the concern.

Cases. I simply use bubble wrap around my NECs and carry them in a large (not huge, just large) hipsack. I carry my Jornada in a leather envelope like pouch my wife made me (in 20 minutes). The NEC MobilePros weigh (with battery pack) 1.7 pounds.

You can get detailed specs on these devices by searching Google for reviews. usedhandhelds.com provides specs for them through links.

WARNING before you buy a Jornada or NEC model make sure you read the audio specs. The jornada 680\680e has a terrible tin speaker meant only for PC sounds & for memo voice recordings. There is no head phone jack. NEC 780/790 has OK mono sound speaker and a head phone jack. Resellers will try to rip you off with overpriced alledged NEC ear buds or head phones. The jack is simply a standard cell phone jack. I use a cell phone buds-mic unit I bought at a dollar store. The MIC will not work. Only an original NEC earbud-mic unit can work the external mic function.

If music or sound is important to you, consider a Jornada 720\728 or a used NEC 900. (For Music and Media, I prefer the tiny but ever adaptable Casio BE-300 (see the BE300.org site). I use these thin devices for books, written data, multi-media, PIM, etc. Just no good, as is case for all PDAs, for efficient user data entry.)

Memory. Users find the memory adequate since we use CF cards for data and many programs. In addition, CE type programs are tiny versions of the PC versions. You learn how unneccessarily huge PC programs are when you use a PDA or Handheld. Studies show that very few users ever use more than 5% of huge programs such as Word Perfect, Microsoft Word, etc. By neccesity, programs are reduced to basics in the mobile world. In the Linux world, programs are reduced to basics reasons of efficiency and individualization. Users can easily add certain functions they want or need. For instance, rather than include the kitchen sink in Firefox users can simply add free add-ons called "plug-ins" and themes.

I need magnification but many people never do. Some people need it temporarily. I added mag to my copy of Firefox but my daughters have not added mag to their copies.

The constant growing size of Windows software is the major cause for Windows freeze ups and crashes and for need for faster processors and more memory & for utilities like registry managers, hard drive defragmentation.

[asiafish]

Wow, thanks for all of the info. Since it was a Jornada 680 that caught my eye on price (and should be in myhands tomorrow or Wednesday), that is what I will stick to for now. The NEC is a bit too close in size to my X32 ThinkPad and so I feel would be a little less useful to me.

The thing that gives me concern about the Jornada is the location and design of the CF slot. Is it possible to actually keep a CF card in this thing all the time without having the slot protrude get damaged? I plan on putting most or all of my programs on the CF card as well as my documents, but would findit rather annoying if I always had to fumble with the slot to load it before use.

[BruisedQuasar]

Reply to Asiafish

You may decide not to keep a CF card plugged into a 680 all the time, since they do draw power from a mobile device even when the device is off. This is less true for Jornadas than for NEC 780/790... I always make sure any card in a NEC is unplugged or down time battery charge will run out within two days.

Jornadas are more power efficient. I can leave a 256MB CF card fully inserted in my jornada for two full weeks and then battery will be down to 33%. I dont though. I pull them just enough to be unconnected. Many people love the Jornada. I like them but the keyboard slows me down. The NEC keyboard does not. AS I said, though, despite my large hands I can still two finger type quite fast on a Jornada. If you have medium or regular USA males hands, you will love the Jornada as many American male owners do.

The protruding problem with the Jornada 680 is with a PC Card. CF cards are not a problem.

I do not know who you bought your 680 from but if it looks new and has a strange symbol on the front where the external record buttons are supposed to be, you have a Dutch Railways custom build. If it is one, you will be told you do not have a working CF slot. You do. It is just blocked by a custom bottom which makes the 680 unstable on a table.

The bottom is easily removed with a number 5 or 6 Torx screw driver. There are five screws holding it on. DO NOT try to replace them after you remove the bottom. You do not need them and one of them may cause the 680 to malfunction if inserted fully.

You will be pleased with how many programs and utilities come installed in the 680. If yours is actually a 680e, all that is missing is the built in phone modem.

[stevezasycho]

I have owned a HPC in the past and I adored it, although I had to trudge on with a grayscale screen.. It was a Compaq C120 (But I THINK it was actually the C140 as it had 4 MB memory)..

That poor unit dropped on the ground and completely fubared the touch screen mechanics.. So, it was retired, and I kinda just forgot all about the HPCs.. Then I found my Compaq again, and thought "Huh.. I liked this stupid thing.."

SO I took a trip to eBay, and couldnt find a working one.. So I typed in ThinkPad 600 and actually came across the WorkPad z50.. I checked it out, and began a bidding war with someone else, and lost.. But I knew I wanted one, and after about 2 years, I snagged one off ebay last week sometime.. I am excited for it to get here.. Glad to see I am not the only one interested in these little things.. A nice thing I would like to see however is MiniMo (Mini Mozilla) on the Windows CE 2.11/3.0 system.. Haven;t seen it yet though.. Good luck to you both in your HPC travels!

[BruisedQuasar]

I have owned a HPC in the past and I adored it, although I had to trudge on with a grayscale screen.. It was a Compaq C120 (But I THINK it was actually the C140 as it had 4 MB memory)..

the WorkPad z50.. I checked it out, and began a bidding war with someone else, and lost.. But I knew I wanted one, and after about 2 years, I snagged one off ebay (Mini Mozilla) on the Windows CE 2.11/3.0 system..

I am not familiar with the z50. I'll have to look up reviews and specs on it.

I got to the Jornada and NEC indirectly. I discovered a little gem, a discontinued PDA, Casio BE-300 searching for a small PC for my wife to use for solitaire. We ended up buying a few of them.

After my experience with the BE-300, I decided to buy and use ONLY PCs that are used, unusual, unique and have a dedicated group of users who participate in an active online user group. (The group for the BE-300 is BE300.org.) Anyone who uses PDAs must visit the site to believe the flexibility of these unique Casios. If you want to look into a clam shell handheld that will blow your socks off look search for Sharp Zaurus handhelds, not sold in USA.

Due to the devotion of BE300 users across the world, we can install and run many programs meant for higher CE operating systems and we can totally alter the operating environment. I have xPod 6.1 on one unit and BeShell on another. The last was developed by a Russian.

After I owned BE300s for a while, I wondered why no firm had assembled and marketed a larger CE device hardware. I decided someone must have. My search led me first to HP thin clients, PCs with PDA guts designed to work as a smart client or smart dumb terminal. Unfortunately, enthusiasts discovered the design is such that thin clients cannot be made independant. They must run off servers.

Refusing to give up, I discovered Jornada 680s - 728 and found they were orphan mobile PCs. I managed to buy a like new 680e. At first, I was absolutely delighted with the 680. I stopped using lug-a-bout portable desktop PCs ("laptop" & "notebook". Then, I discovered the NEC 780/790. I measured off the footprint on a piece of paper and decided I had to have one.

First. I bought a 780 and rarely used my Jornada afterward. The keyboard difference was major for me. I found the 780 was not nearly as flexible as the jornada and learned the 790 version was more than a 780 with more memory. It had a better proprietary version of Windows CE in it. I use the 780 for writing to save wear and tear on the 790, which is the one I take to libraries and on the road. I like the larger NEC790 screen for wi-fi linking with access points.

The main handheld enthusiast site, HPCFACTOR.COM, has free software, utilities, information and advice on how handhelds can be extended and modified and info on Wi-Fi cards that work with your device. The issue is not so much the card as the drivers, except that handhelds can use only 16-bit cards. No problem since they are plentiful on eBay.

There is a dedicated group that has developed a version of Linux to port and run on Jornadas, especially the 720. A unique trait of Jornada design is that it boots its operating system, so it can be hacked to boot Linux.

A true mobile PC is not just small, light, provides 8 or more hours active battery charge but has NO MOVING PARTs or large screens. What makes lug-a-bouts expensive mobile devices is the all too common screen breakage and hard drive failure. Neither one take well to frequent moving or to any dropping. I have dropped my NEC and Jornada a few times on my carpet with no damage whatsoever. I hate the thought of ever dropping a lug-a-bout even on my carpet.

By the way, there is a Linux group that developed a Linux distro that runs in the PDA, Casio BE-300 (see be300.org)

[stevezasycho]

Well since you like the truly Unique PCs, the z50 is definately up your alley.. That's why I want one.. And got one..

Another tuly unique one is the IBM PC110.. A Japanese-only palmtop..

I am lookin around as far as OS options go, different applications I can run as far as email, messaging, and web goes.. I like the layout of Windows CE 2.11, but I am finding a few roadblocks for some applications.. Like MiniMozilla..

I too am a fan of the unique PCs, desktops, your "mobile desktops", and the truly portables.. I have quite a collection, but I do enjoy the mobile desktops for on the go gaming and such.. People dont often know what to think/say when I say I like HPC devices, but it is nice to know I am not alone

[BruisedQuasar]

Well since you like the truly Unique PCs, the z50 is definately up your alley.. Another unique one is the(Japanese only) IBM PC110.. I am lookin around as far as OS options go, different applications I can run... email, messaging, and web.. I like the layout of Windows CE 2.11, but I am finding a few roadblocks for some applications.. Like MiniMozilla..

The unique Sharp Linux O/S Zaurus line can run mozilla. After Microsoft kicked Sharp out of the US market, sharp compiled its own PDA version of Linux & wrote its own programs. From the defunct (but highly sought after) 760 to the current 3500 (with built in 4gig microdrive flash), all software that runs on the 760, runs on the newest Zaurus models. Just about every Japaese school kid has a Zaurus. The only draw back for a male Westerner is the keyboard is too small for our hands.

I researched the z50 you told me about. I like it and I am already bidding on one. I'll check out the IBM PC110.

[AlphaKilo470]

I noticed that several different PDA's were being mentioned here and I was wondering, does anyone here use anything that runs Palm OS?

Actually, does anyone here have both, a Palm OS device and a WinCE/Mobile PDAor a Linux PDA like the Zaurus? I've been a Palm user for a while and have gone through many Palm PDA's but have never really looked at the other alternatives on the market and was wondering what most people think about Palm OS vs. the other choices nowadays because I'm trying to decide if the next PDA I save for should be a Palm like all the last or if it shouldbe something else.

My current PDA is an aging but still nearly mint condition Palm IIIc.

[BruisedQuasar]

Hello Alphakilo,

Palm OS is about the only system I have not used. People do seem to react extremely to Palm. They either hate them or love them.

Being active in the Windows type handheld world and PDA world, I can tell you most enthusiasts do not like Palm O/S and I can tell you why. They do not like the narrowness forced on owners by the Palm O/S. The dislike for Palm is similar to the broad dislike for MAC. We like both as far as they go but there are simply too many limitations.

Critics keep announcing the coming death of both MAC and Palm but I notice they both keep pluging along in their nitches.

MAC may soon begin seriously breaking out of their nitch, given their break with IBM and switch to Intel processors. We will be able to run the next Mac O/S on PCs! Apple should have become mainly a software firm several years ago, or so I thought. Perhaps, Apple did not think it could survive head to head competition with a monopolistic giant like Microsoft.

I look forward to loading the Mac O/S on PCs. It is a UNIX variant like Linux. Mac O/S can work mainstream Wi-Fi gear and routers, which could mean trouble, at last, for Windows.

[asiafish]

Palm is not disliked by most users, it is the most popular PDA OS going and has been for some time. Strangely, the same people who keep spouting crap about Macs being toys or incompatible (those who don't know what they are talking about) keep coming back year after year with the exact same misinformation regardless of the fact that Macs will do anything PCs will do except play certain games or run some highly specialized (or drug-store cheap) software.

Oh yeah, there is one other thing Macs won't do, they won't get infected by viruses, worms, trojans or other malware like PCs do.

[AlphaKilo470]

Thanks for the insight bruised quasar.

Personally, from my own perspective which is that of a Palm user who hasn't used Windows CE or mobile since the days of the Sharp Mobilon and all of those other cool looking clamshell devices (1998, 1999), the biggest problem I have with Palm is the screen real estate and the fact that the newest availible OS is from 3 years ago.

For the OS limitations, I will acknowledge that they are pretty apparent and it doesn't help that the last major re-works of the Palm OS platform happened in 2001 with Palm OS 4 and in 2002 with Palm OS 5.

As for everything else, I really haven't noticed too much. My Palm IIIc is over 5 years old and not exactly the hottest technology but so far, the only thing I've really pushed to it's limit is the RAM space because I have a ton of games I like playing when I get bored with class lectures (the repetitive style used by many teachers where the same thing is repeated over and over really doesn't do anything more than bore me but my acedemics is another subject) and another significant amount of RAM is used by AvantGo channels and most other Palm OS users ave similar usage patterns. In 1996, when the first Palm device, the Pilot came out, it's main user base was for people needing a tool to store information and possible a few desktop distractions and ten years later, the user base, while expanding, still seems to be similar.

[GomJabbar]

While I really haven't used a Palm device myself, a couple of years ago my wife wanted something that she could carry around in her nursing duties to check on drug dosages and interactions, symptoms and diagnosis, with a medical dictionary, etc. I did some research and found that a WinCE or Palm hand-held should fit the bill. Since I wince at WinCE, I went with Palm and bought her a Palm Tungsten T3. Now, I can hardly pry it from her grubby little fingers (a figure of speech). She uses it all the time. She listens to her mp3's via headphones or the built-in speaker (admittedly limited). She's become a Solitare expert I believe. And she actually does use it for the original intended purpose from time to time. For her, the SD memory slot and on-screen keyboard are very handy.

When I researched medical software for a hand-held device, I found that Palm and WinCE are equally supported. I was actually a little surprised by this. I figured the 'Big Gorilla' would have cleared the field here too.

In the interest of disclosure, I have not actually personally used a WinCE hand-held. I got turned off by them from when I had (and still have) my HP200LX palmtop, which runs HP's software and DOS. It does so much with so little (processor/memory wise). I can run for days on a couple of AA batteries. AFAIK, you can't say that for a WinCE hand-held.

[gavin3194]

I have known palm os for a years now. Right now I own a sony ux40, which I love. It is basically a mini laptop with a palm operating system. The other model similar to mine has wifi too, but I just use an adapter for that. I personally love palm os. Memory is not really a problem with me since I can get up a 4gb memory stick and possibly an 8gb memory stick in the future. With palm os, though, you can basically do anything you want. My palm has a rotating screen feature which makes it incredibly similar to tablet laptops. With the newer palm os, you can go on the internet, play an almost endless supply of games, play emulators, type of documents (which you can edit and save in microsoft word), watch movies, take movies, take pictures, etc.

AlphaKilo470, you should take a look at my pda if you are interested in updating. It's a perfect all around device, and there are still many users out around who are experimenting with it and improving it. I also have a WinCe handheld, which is way to outdated to compare to my ux40. However, I played around on my friend's pocket pc a few months ago. I have to say that I like the windows software a lot, and its very easy to use. The one disadvantage I have seen is that there are very few pocket pc handhelds with built in keyboards. I find the keyboard so useful that I have never really considered changing to a pocket pc. The only current pocket pc devices like that are pdas like the HTC Universal (JasJar), but that comes with a pricetag of over $700, whereas the ux40 sells for about $150 these days. It all depends on what you use most and what your budget is.

[BruisedQuasar]

Palm's demise has been predicted, by the main magazine PC gerus, every year for the past few years. I think they have predicted the same for Apple-MAC, for even more years. Yet, both continue on. I see them as niche PCs. Palm is not a giant PDA. Clearly, the gross majority of PDAs are clearly Windows devices.

Although Microsoft is rather openly a monopoly that plays dirty pool to destroy competition, Gates is no fool. He knows his 240 million dollar a year "donations" to each national Party (how can a person be both a Republican and a Democrat?) can only buy? him so much law breaking. He does see to it that MS seems to have a competitor in the desktop and mobile PC worlds. He made sure Apple did not go down when it was in flames and now owns 25% of Apple, which is a lot, enough to be a major stockholder and member of the board. Fortunately, the erasible Steven Jobs controls Apple and has a huge ego. (Some critics say Gates is not worried about keeping a competitor around so much as he needs Apple around to come up with new ideas he can commandeer for Microsoft.)

When a person considers Palm, Windows mobile devices, PCs or MACS, analysis must take into account that the best PC is the one that does what a particular person wants and the one a person is happy with.

however, these individual considerations should not cancel other people from forming and expressing an opinion about quality and functionality of PCs in general.

I did not post that Palm or MAC were no good. I said that many people find these PCs too limited, to software limited. On a general basis, I do not think any informed person would compare any Palm with current HP or Dell PDA. There is simply no comparison.

As for true handheld moble PCs, PCs such as the Jornada, NEC MobilePro, the Japanese Zaurus and IBM Japan PC110 and the IBM z50, all of them have on board battery packs that provide 8 hours of more active use per charge. The amazing thing is that this technology is not new. The z50 dates back to 1999 and were produced for only one year. NEC just dropped their mobilePro line, the last version being the 900c (you can still buy the 900 and 900c factory new)

What killed these fantastic Windows mobile handhelds was Microsoft failure to update the Mobile Windows display drivers. The Japanese Sharp Zaurus does not have such problems, since the Zaurus line is driven by Sharp Linux. After Microsoft forced Sharp out of the US market, Sharp focused on mobile PCs and Linux.

I see no reason to think Palm is going to make a big splash anytime soon.
Alphakilo pointed to a major reason Palm continues to be a weak competitor against Windows PCs. Apple-MAC may surprise everyone. The 2005 decision to drop IBM processors and port the MAC O/S to run on Intel processors excites me. This O/S is a UNIX variant like Linux core O/S and it is simply much better engineered than Windows or any other Microsoft O/S. It is not true that it is rare for a Linux system or a MAC to get a virus or malware, etc. because they are much less used than Windows. They rarely get infected because they are better designed and built! It takes considerably more skill and knowledge to infect a UNIX variant O/S, especially Linux, MAC O/S and even Firefox browser.
My guess is that Gates still is not serious about mobile PCs. He is focused on lug-a-bout portable desktops, PCs labelled laptops and notebooks. It seems that so long as they stick with mechanical Hard Drives and large screens (the trend is larger and larger screens) and battery use is limited to a few hours, there will be a strong demand for mobile PCs.

As for the surprise that Gates has not crushed Palm O/S, Gates has taken a unclear tack in the mobile market. It was not that long ago that Berkeley Softworks programers insisted I keep whatever they told me about current GEOS WORKS projects Hush, Hush from fear that Microsoft find out and crush Berkeley for good.

GEOS WORKS
Gates Crushed GEOS WORKS. They did manage, though, to find a niche in a sector Gates then dismissed as insignigicant, the nascent PDA mobile PC world.

Berkeley programmers were the best in the business at writting powerful tight code. They were originally the top video arcade game programmers. What they did with game computers limited to 64K was amazing. They applied themselves to producing stable, graphic desktop drive O/S for a variety of computers. Their first GEOSWORKs was written for Apple II. It was so good it extended the life of the Apple. Next, the wrote GEOSWORKS operating system for Commodore 64; they even bought a defunct firm that made 640K main memory extenders for the C-64 and sold them at cost to us (for $50).

With just the C-64 64k memory GEOSWORKS O/S provided a stable, great graphic O/S and room to run programs. GW included several programs, including a wordprocessor!

Then, the team make a suicidal error. They produced a fantastic O/S for PCs that was so well written that it ran on original 8086 IBM clones with 640K main memory! GEOWORKS PC was vastly superior to goofy Windows 3.11 and thus, Gates Crushed Berkeley Softworks.

They changed their name to Cambridge and took their O/S and programs to emerging PDAs and Japanese word processor typewriters.

Today a few Asian PDA makers still use GEOS and Brother still uses it in their sophisticated typewriters. There is a dedicated group that still uses GEOS for their PCs and such. Members write drivers and such so they can drive modern printers, wi-fi cards, etc. Their site is a Yahoo site. If you are interested, just search Yahoo Groups for "GEOS" or "GEOWORKS"

[pianowizard]

I am thinking about getting the Jornada 720, which uses Windows for Handheld PC 2000. I already own several highly portable laptops (see my signature), but none of them is as small as the Jornada. Can someone (BruisedQuasar?) please answer the following questions:

1) Can virus scanners be installed on it?

2) Are security updates available for this version of Windows?

3) If neither is available, is it safe to surf the internet on this machine?

[BillMorrow]

just to remind everyone here, there is another antique called the ibm workpad z50..

[Asbradley21]

I am thinking about getting the Jornada 720, which uses Windows for Handheld PC 2000. I already own several highly portable laptops (see my signature), but none of them is as small as the Jornada. Can someone (BruisedQuasar?) please answer the following questions:

1) Can virus scanners be installed on it?

2) Are security updates available for this version of Windows?

3) If neither is available, is it safe to surf the internet on this machine?

Yes(very few and basically serve no pupose), No(Microsoft and about all other corporations have abandoned Hpcs as well as Win CE), and yes, there are basically no viruses out for windows ce.

[schen]

I've used a pretty wide variety of these devices ranging from the Mobilons to 4 generations of the Palms and have found that you guys are exactly correct in saying that the best instrument is the right one for the job. Currently, I use a old Handspring Edge that's been around for some 5 years now. It's great because it does exactly what I need it to and therefore keeps me from having to go out and buy a MS Mobile PC that cost more, is bigger and does a bunch of stuff I don't need! I am interested in getting a Jornado though for those times when an attached keyboard and color screen would be useful. I purchased different models of them for my boss when they came out around '98 or so and really like them (just didn't need them). Bruisers info has been so good, I'm really tempted to dive back in.

Hey AK47, do you still use the IIIc?

[BruisedQuasar]

I am thinking about getting the Jornada 720, which uses Windows for Handheld PC 2000.

1) Can virus scanners be installed on it?
2) Are security updates available for this version of Windows?
3) If neither is available, is it safe to surf the internet on this machine?

SURFING WITH A JORNADA or NEC HANDHELD.
I agree with the post that replied that security isn't really an issue with CE devices. Some enthusiasts install security I have not bothered. spyware and malware isnt coded for CE devices. Owners of new PDAs and Smartphones may need to be concerned but I havent seen any need myself to take steps for my handhelds. The basic applications are ROM which cannot be infected and most of us run as many applications off CF card as possible.
You are going to love these truly mobile handhelds. I never take a lug-a-bout notebook outside my house anymore. I lugged around laptops and notebooks for several years when my work took me on the road. I wasted more time unpacking, setting up, booting, running disk maintenance, packing up, etc these [censored] portable desktop things.

I was hot 3 years ago when I learned about the enterprise mobile handhelds. They did not find me. I found them. I am a Casio BE300 enthusiast. The BE300 enthusiasts have these wonderful orphan PDAs doing things that surprise most people who lay out several hundred dollars for their PDA. It occured to me that there is no logical reason bigger devices could not be based around PDA technology. Why not have a full keyboard? Able to use Monitors? I figured that the PDA instant on\off & instant application launch, real portability must appeal to more people than just me.

My fellow PDA enthusiasts didn't think it possible to run larger components with PDA hardware. My Internet searches led me to HP Thin Clients, which are essentially smarter dumb terminals powered by CE tech and PDA hardware inside of light-weight, near full-size desktop components. Thin Client enthusiasts invest a lot of effort to get very limited results running their Thin Clients independent of a server.

Finally, I discovered a line of enterprise (business) devices that few people knew (or know about now). I first learned about the HP Jornada clamshell line. I bought a like-new 680. I was thrilled with it. Eight hour battery charge, a practical, click keyboard that I could use with my large hands (I had to adopt a two finger touch typing style to get good speed but the women in my family can use both hands). My wife made a simple but cool looking envelope-style leather pouch for it and I cut and taped some bubble wrap into a protective sleeve for it. I got a 16-bit PC wi-fi card and a 256MB CF card for it.

The Jornada 680 - 728 & NEC MobilePro 780 - 900 lines come loaded with a full package of software. They are permanently installed in ROM, an internal ROM. Jornadas and NEC Mobilepros come with ROM and Flash memory chips. Do not let the small amount of on board memory in the 680 or 728 throw you. We have become conditioned by PC industry hype to be alarmed at the idea that a device with only 32MB total memory could be practical.

First, PC word processors, web browsers and such are unnecessarily huge and use a huge amount of hardware resources, All user surveys indicate that very few word processor users EVER use more than 5% of the features and that many of the features of MS Word, WordPerfect, etc are RARELY ever used by anyone! Since Windows '95, commercial software publishers have bogged us down with growing bloat. You can bet on it that each new release of a program will be substantially larger and use more resources than the last release. The Apex of software bloat are integrated program suites such as MS Office. Free OpenOffice does about anything MS Office can do. When I load a Live CD version of Ubuntu Linux, OpenOffice 2.0 is on the same CD as Linux, Gnome Desktop and many other powerful programs, including Firefox.

Until 1995, I did most of my professional writing with a DOS program, Galaxy Lite, that was an enhanced text editor. It was well under 100k, not megs, 'k' and it was shareware. I paid $10 for it and got all updates and new versions free. Since it easily fit on a floppy and it loaded into main memory and ran from there, it was FAST & I could take it anywhere & just insert it into any PC floppy drive and use it. I also played around with a less than 200k word processor, Mind Reader, that included a unique artificial intelligence engine.

The handheld devices I mention in this thread run on MS Windows CE for Handhelds. Anyone who is thinking of buying such a device, I advise you consider buying a Jornada 720 or an NEC 790.

In the opinion of many handheld enthusiasts, the best handheld ever made were the HP Jornada 720\728. They are power efficient, small enough to fit in a jacket or coat pocket and even a person with large hands can type at a practical speed on the keyboard. The quality of design and make are the highest.

After I learned about the Jornada's main competitor (in Western Countries), the larger NEC Mobilepro, I had to have one. Though still small & very portable, the NEC has a significantly larger keyboard. I bought a refurbished NEC 780. Instantly, I fell in love with the keyboard and larger display. The NEC also has a more practical way to use a PC Card and a CF Card at the same time. Although the NEC MobilePro line outlived the Jornada line shutting down production only late last year, jornadas are clearly higher quality make. Both devices, however, are enterprise (business quality). The Jornada's were simply tighter engineered and better made. You can tell right away by the superior quality of the Jornada case.

I advise a Jornada 720 or 728 or an NEC 790 which are basically the same hardware as the earlier versions but come with newer versions of WIndows CE for handhelds & have excellent audio. The Jornada 680/690 effectively has no audio. It has a single 50 cent tin speaker, the low quality 'beep' speakers PCs had years ago, namely none. Users did not play music through them. You bought a Sound Blaster card and endured the headache of figuring out which dip switch setting worked with your PC. Moreover, there is no external audio jack. If there were, it would be near useless, since the sound chip is limited and strictly for voice, clicks & alarms. With help from the HPCFactor site you can install considerable software on the 680/690.

Jornada 720 & 728 have a stereo head phone jack and a lot of owners use them to run multimedia, from MP3 music to video. A uniqueness of 720/728 design allows users to boot a version of Linux. For more on that, see the Linux group at HPCFactor

Final note on Jornadas. I have experimented with surfing the net with these devices. There are enthusiasts who use Jornadas for Internet surfing and are happy with the result. I stopped after I got a NEC 780. The wider and taller display of the NECs makes surfing much more practical with NECs than with smaller Jornadas -in my hunble opinion.

Installing and getting software to work in the NEC 780 is difficult. Though it has the same Windows version as the Jornada 680 & 690, the Jornadas are far more forgiving and adoptable. This is my finding and that of several other enthusiasts. I was delighted when I got a NEC 790. It is just the right size for me and it is very mobile & portable. I decided not to buy a 900 because there is much more software for the 790 and the commercial titles are inexpensive.

Again, the HPCFactor SUPPORT GROUP SITE is a Storehouse of
information and downloadable free applications for Jornadas and NECs and some less common clamshell type handhelds. Before you buy a WiFi card, you MUST visit this site so you buy the proper card and know what drivers site members found will work with your specific handheld.

By the way, these devices cost over $1,000 new. $90 to $200 for a like new refurbished unit gives you a lot for a small price. Warning. I have to visit university libraries early Saturdays or Sundays now. When students see my Jornada or NEC, they must interrupt me and ask about it. My chuckling at professors lugging around notebooks that chain them to a table once they unpack and boot up doesn't help matters.

I stand up, close my NEC and leave my table all in one quick movement. When I return, I just open it and I am exactly where I was when I closed it! The NEC with 8 hour battery pack weighs 1.7 pounds. It fits nicely into a medium sized hipsack.

[pianowizard]

BruisedQuasar, thanks very much for your response and for telling us about these handheld PCs. I just received a used Jornada 720 and love it! I still have to figure out whether I can install a Netgear ethernet though.

[BruisedQuasar]

BruisedQuasar, ... I just received a used Jornada 720 and love it! I still have to figure out whether I can install a Netgear ethernet though.

Go to HPCFactor.com and run searches on the posts for any information you seek. You must register as a member (its free) to download anything. It is worth your time, especially the archive of information on specific Wi-Fi PC Cards and drivers that work in a Jornada 720. The card must be 16-bit.

There is a very solid Jornada 720 modifier and seller on eBay Paige's PDAs, just search Jornada 720 and you will find him. He is an superb source for Wi-Fi cards and drivers that work in the 720. He sells them for under $45 and on request, he includes a special driver CD with auto-install drivers for each of the major Jornada and NEC handhelds.

HPC Factor also has information on upgrades and has several software upgrades archived for free download. The members cover everything from repairs, modifications, battery packs...

I do not own a Jornada 720 or 728 yet but I am tempted, as much as I find my NEC 790 handy. The Jornada 720/728 may well be the all around best handheld ever made. Because it actually boots Windows (from ROM), the Linux group has figured out a way to boot a Linux Distro. The most advanced handheld made so far was the recently abandoned NEC MobilePro 900c

I would consider near perfect the guts of a Sharp Zaurus 3500 inside an NEC MobilePro case and would rush out to buy one even if it were inserted inside a smaller Jornada case. The Zaurus is just right for Japanese hands but too small for most Westerners.

I think smart phones are a fad and will pass unless random pattern recognition is perfected soon, so we can input and output data vocally. There is nothing more inpractical I can think of than a touch screen or thumbpad keyboard. And the tiny smart phone screens may be O.K. for some young eyes but most people cannot do much real work with such a tiny display. Of course, eyeglasses with micro screens, which would appear huge to the eye, and an accurate audio two-way command and data system would change all that.

A recent major breakthrough in creation of a replacement for silicon may prove interesting: a very thin, polymer plastic material that can conduct electricity at high speeds. It is a crystaline plastic that can be sprayed onto things with inkjet printer like machines! It will not only dramatically decrease the costs of displays & mobile computing, it will permit radical new applications. We may have wireless displays we can wear like glasses sooner than anyone predicted!

[christopher_wolf]

Good point about the printable organic layers; although the biggest problem with that organic layer has been its very high sensitivity to its environs. Say you go out where the humidity is different from where you were before, you could very easily end up destroying the organic film. There have been electronic noses based off of such films that have been very good and have proven robust at many applications simply because such films are very sensitive to the atmosphere, moisture, grease, etc.

[BruisedQuasar]

The nose and other skin products I mentioned are made of real human skin cells. Once made they are as durable as a naturally evolved human nose. Anyone interested in a full essay about the most amazing creation of the 21st century, injet and bubble jet printing technology, which was originally developed by a Hewlet-Packard R&D team for medical, not printing purposes, see:
Popular Science Febuary 2005 "There's a Hero on Your Desktop"

As for possible humidity problems with Crystalline Polymer film, in 1974 the best Computer Science could do for the Army need for a field trailer computer driven testing system for helicopter engines was a trailer sized glass tube computer that required strict humidity and temperature control (air conditioning) The same was true for front line tanks, which had to be fully air conditioned. An air conditioning failure meant computer failure and a dead in its tracks tank.

By 1981, IBM supplied the Army with a rugged much more powerful solid state ruggedized desktop PC that replaced the trailer sized computer.

Any humidity problem the crystallized film may have is a minor issue compared to making the film an efficient conducter of high speed electrical currents.

I am more concerned about our runaway cannabal litigation problem, which has locked up five different practical infrared light keyboards for PDAs that were perfected & ready for low cost manufacture by 2001. Since Congress is 50% attorneys, I do not see real tort reform happening anytime soon.

[pianowizard]

I owned a Jornada 720 and really liked its pocket size. I sold it after about two weeks mainly because its OS and software were too limited; I need something that runs full-blown Windows. Is there a laptop that's about the same size as the Jornada series? The smallest that I am aware of are the Toshiba Libretto (8.27" x 6.50" x 1.17") and the Sony Picturebook (9.77" x 5.99" x 1.06"), but they are still too big to fit in a pocket. Laptop replacements like the OQO 01+ or the Sony UX series won't work for me because their keyboards are too hard to use.

[dsigma6]

Pianowizard...can you say BUMP!?

I just purchased a Motorola MPx220 windows smartphone. When it originally came out last year, it was $250-$300. I held off and got it for $108 shipped, which is a good deal lower than the going rate. I had the MPx200 back when that was the cool thing to do, so this should be fun.

[trent9008]

If I felt a Thinkpad was too heavy to carry around where I needed it, I would go for one of these:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/umpc/default.mspx

They are roughly the same size, weight, etc. as the ones above, but it is a fully functioning mobile computer and comes with a full-featured copy of Windows XP Tablet 2005. In other words, this is your desktop PC crammed into a 2 lb. package, with ability to add any software or hardware you can on an ordinary system (within reason, of course).

These don't have keyboards per se, but there is a keyboard that you use with your thumbs on the touchscreen while holding it in two hands. (Ouch.) I suppose the theory is that you won't try to type a novel on a computer this size anyway, using the touchscreen for most of your actions. But no doubt there are expansion keyboards available.

[pianowizard]

If I felt a Thinkpad was too heavy to carry around where I needed it, I would go for one of these:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/umpc/default.mspx

An X-series Thinkpad isn't too heavy for me, but it's the laptop bag that I don't want to carry around. Ultra-mobile PCs are cute but why can't they just reduce the size of the Libretto or Picturebook further so that it can fit into a pocket like the HP Jornada? The Jornada's keyboard is very tiny, but I can imagine getting used to it and able to type pretty fast on it. It would take forever to type just one short paragraph using those ultra-mobile PCs' "keyboards".