X60 series keyboard (its terrible)

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christopher_wolf · #31 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:39 pm

I am not suprised that they needed new AC Adapters for the T60 and X60; they have significantly different CPUs that are both dual core...That means that the power needs will also change. As for the buttons, I don't really mind as the "ThinkVantage" button looks like the "ThinkPad" buttons from the T2X Series...Maybe the Access IBM button looked a tad better, but as long as it has the same excellent quality and tactile feeback I won't mind. As long as IBM/Lenovo stays away from badly designed buttons, they are fine in that area; for example, 2 HP laptops of mine and a Compaq have *horrendous* volume buttons on the side. In the case of the Compaq, 1900 Presario, it consisted of a single beam which is very loose that literally lies on top of two buttons (+/-) without any form of a fulcrum point whatsoever; worse yet, if you hit both at once it woud, get this, mute. It took, and I kid thee not, several attempts at fiddling around with it to move the volume up or down...With random mutes/unmutes occuring along the way due to its bad debounce/looseness problem The ones on the HPs, one the same age the other HP more modern, are better but are still flimsy and spend 95% of travel time when pressed simply freefloating until they hit a tiny little button for the volume. So as long as IBM/Lenovo keep the tactile feedback on the volume buttons, mute button, and ThinkVantage button...I have no problems.

#32 Post by **aamsel** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:27 pm

I am guessing that the new a/c adapters are larger and heavier???
Andrew

christopher_wolf wrote:...I am not suprised that they needed new AC Adapters for the T60 and X60; they have significant;y different CPUs that are both dual core...That means that the power needs will also change...

LumberJack · #33 Post by **LumberJack** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:21 pm

I don't really like the new keyboard and general style of the lenovo's comming out. Personally i will hold on to my X31 as long as I can before I look into buying a replacement.

LJ

RS_003 · #34 Post by **RS_003** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:45 pm

A wise decision.
I don't need the upgrade in speed either... but knowing as I am I will get it as soon as it becomes available in the EU.

pphilipko · #35 Post by **pphilipko** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:51 am

The keyboard is very much like the one on the i Series line introduced in 1999. It IS indeed cheaper to manufacture keyboards in a uniform color, rather than the blue/grey/black combination found in previous thinkpad lines, e.g. T4x, X4x...

abvc · #36 Post by **abvc** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:31 am

dr_st wrote:
RS_003 wrote:Ok, the windows key is discussable, but the rest of the changes are just not done.
Agree with you completely.

I simply despise those stupid windows keys. The main reason I liked IBM laptops were the fact that they didn't have those useless keys on the keyboard.

I wonder if this is a sign to come from lenovo that they won't be very respective to folks who run other operating systems besides windows. In past Thinkpad models, you could find modules (drivers) for download on the ibm.com/support site, as well as linux friendly hardware in the laptop.
Stop being stupid. The Windows keys are NOT useless. To you they might be, but there is a large community of people that uses them a lot. Don't want to? Don't use it. What makes more sense? To give them to people who might find them useful or to keep them away for the sake of purists who absolutely refuse to live with a Ctrl key that is a bit smaller?

Every keyboard out there now, besides IBM, has Windows keys. How's the simple fact that the keys are there makes the system unfriendly to Linux users?

It's kinda like the touchpad issue. Personally, I find the touchpad completely unusable and always use the trackpoint. But there are lots of people who aren't like that and for their sake IBM/Lenovo started putting dual pointing devices on their laptops. I see that as a welcome change.

I understand that introducing the Windows keys changes the keyboard layout slightly and it might be uncomfortable to adjust for people who are used to the old one. I felt EXACTLY the same when Windows keys first started appearing on desktop keyboards. I was furious too. But adjusting wasn't too hard. No longer do I hit the Windows key by accident, and I make full use of the keyboard shortcuts that employ that key, to speed things up.

If the Windows keys never appeared and MS would have used other keyboard shortcuts, chances are nobody would ever mind. But the Windows keys are there, they are the standard, and if you want to appeal to the masses - better respect standards.

i set up my right alt to a windows key for 2 months. never use it, now i remove the setup.

btw, windows key is plain useless and ugly. why add up a useless button to cram up the space. on a side note, i would only add it if microsoft is willing to pay me.

abvc · #37 Post by **abvc** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:34 am

dr_st wrote:
wolfman wrote:Or just use the provided utility to remap a key...i think it should be an option to get a keyboard without the windows keys - but that is my opinion...
Yeah, and there should be an option to get a keyboard without F11 and F12 (old keyboards didn't have them) and with the Ctrl to the left of the Fn (some may like it this way) and without the trackpoint (some may not need it) and with a larger Enter and the backslash stuck to the right of the right Shift (as appears on some keyboard layouts).

See what I'm getting at?

do u understand that f11, f12, ctrl and fn is 'universal' where as WINDOWS key is 'bill gates'

RS_003 · #38 Post by **RS_003** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:19 am

Kinda like that yes.

bigscreen · #39 Post by **bigscreen** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:17 pm

The keyboard was the main reason for buying my first Thinkpad and I am disappointed with the new layout, especially by the Windows keys. It's not about "just not using" a key that is there. The Windows keys are too small to effectively use them on such a small keyboard. And it makes the CTRL key that I use frequently, significantly smaller, increasing the chance that I hit the Windows key by accident. It's just not user friendly (read: touch typer friendly) to put more useless keys into a small keyboard like that.

A keyboard without Windows keys would really be an outstanding feature that appeals to professionals (read: touch typers). Make it an option, I pay something extra for it.

The other thing that I still don't understand is why the new X6 ultrabase doesn't have DVI. The Intel chipset can handle that - it just takes a connector on the ultrabase to enable it. Very sad...

SpaRood · #40 Post by **SpaRood** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:03 am

Perhaps they can make 2 kind of keyboards available: with and without windows key. The addition of a windows-key is indeed a complaint heard often. I never use that key either, but I believe many others use that key, so for them it is quite useful.

#41 Post by **aamsel** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:14 am

They are not going to do that. I realize that this would be a nice option to have, but you have to look at it from a PC manufacturer's standpoint:
Options such as that complicate the build process, and add additional cost by having two available keyboard parts. Also, keep in mind that IBM/Lenovo does not just make a US/English keyboard, they make many different languages. To make Windows key/non-Windows key versions would mean another 10-15 different keyboards. It just isn't going to happen.

Andrew

SpaRood wrote:...Perhaps they can make 2 kind of keyboards available: with and without windows key...

feklee · #42 Post by **feklee** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:11 am

Hm, as I said earlier, a tiny AtrGr key [1] on a German X60/s keyboard is not acceptable for me and for our customers - one frequently needs it when typing characters such as "{", "\", etc.. So, I wonder:

Do you think it would be possible to replace the small AltGr-Key plus the right Windows key with a single key that replaces both?

Of course, one would need someone to manufacture these keys in a way that they look and feel as if they were integrated into the keyboard by the original manufacturer.

If there's no solution, Lenovo subnotebooks will be out of question for the time being. Fortunately, the 14" models are still quite compact, but still ...

[1] Tthe AltGr key is in the same location as the right Alt key on English keyboards.

nickpoore · #43 Post by **nickpoore** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:32 pm

simscitizen wrote:The Windows key is useful enough to merit inclusion into the keyboard. Useful shortcuts:

Win + E = Explorer
Win + R = Run window
Win + M = Minimize all windows
Shift + Win + M = Restore minimized windows to original state

And so forth. If you don't use the Windows key and you use Windows, you should learn how to use the key--it's darned useful, and that utility CANNOT be denied.

I AGREE.

The windows shortcut keys have been around since win95.
That's over 10 years.
For 10 years the other keyboards have slowly incorporated this key.
The key is very useful if you know what the keys are.

I get fed up with people who say things like "this is just pandering to microsoft". You're buying a laptop with a microsoft operating system on it, and they are adding hardware support for this.
While I completely respect your option to un-install MS software and install your own software, please be aware that 95% of users don't do this.

I agree that the X60 keyboard is cramped, but if I wanted a bigger keyboard I would have bought a T60.
I have been using the keyboard for a few days, and have quickly gotten used to it.

How many of you guys who are bashing this keyboard have even used it for a period of time?

The keyboard is a compromise.
The ESC key is not to the left of the F1 key.
The cursor keys are lower down than the space bar.
PrntScrn is above F10, not to the right of F12.
Ctrl is not in the bottom left of the keyboard.

There are many many reasons why "this keyboard sucks", but the real thing here is that once you sit down and use it, you get used to it.

The keyboard feels GREAT.
The keyboard works.
I can sit down and touch-type at it just fine, for hours at a time.

There, now will people please quit talking about abstract ideas and just sit down and do some work for a change.

-=Nick=-

jimmcclarty · #44 Post by **jimmcclarty** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:45 pm

just be glad it is not as cramped as the Japanese version:
http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/pcupdate/art ... ws009.html
look at the size of that space bar! The one on the left is the x60 the one on the right is the x40.

feklee · #45 Post by **feklee** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:04 pm

nickpoore wrote:The windows shortcut keys have been around since win95.
That's over 10 years.
For 10 years the other keyboards have slowly incorporated this key.
The key is very useful if you know what the keys are.

But how often do you need to open Windows Explorer as compared to typing ""? Have you ever used a German keyboard?

I get fed up with people who say things like "this is just pandering to microsoft". You're buying a laptop with a microsoft operating system on it, and they are adding hardware support for this.

To me it's not about MS or not. It's all about ergonomics. Personally, I use the CapsLock key as the Windows key, and I'm just fine with that.

I agree that the X60 keyboard is cramped, but if I wanted a bigger keyboard I would have bought a T60.
I have been using the keyboard for a few days, and have quickly gotten used to it.

Sure one can buy a 14" model instead - seems like subnotebooks are no longer attractive for touch typists and programmers.

The ESC key is not to the left of the F1 key.
The cursor keys are lower down than the space bar.
PrntScrn is above F10, not to the right of F12.

The average user won't need these keys very often, and, furthermore, at least they're reasonable sized.

Ctrl is not in the bottom left of the keyboard.

That's a drawback - I agree. AFAICS, it would make more sense to move the FN key between the Strg and Alt keys, and perhaps bundle it's functionality with that of the Windows key.

IMHO, a bigger drawback is that the Alt(Gr) and Strg keys are not at the lower right of the keyboard. I never understood why they don't swap these keys with the cursor key block. However, on X31 and X41 those keys do, again, have a reasonable size.

There, now will people please quit talking about abstract ideas and just sit down and do some work for a change.

Well, no-one is forced to read this forum.

mroth · #46 Post by **mroth** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:00 pm

jimmcclarty wrote:just be glad it is not as cramped as the Japanese version:
http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/pcupdate/art ... ws009.html
look at the size of that space bar! The one on the left is the x60 the one on the right is the x40.

What strikes me most about those pictures is how much disapointingly fatter the X60s is than the X40. That site explicitly identifies the model as a X60s, but I wonder if it was perhaps a X60. If that is in fact a X60s, the X60 must be even more ridiculously back-heavy. Do good photographs exist anywhere of the difference between the X60 and X60s in thickness?

nickpoore · #47 Post by **nickpoore** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:21 pm

feklee wrote:
nickpoore wrote:The windows shortcut keys have been around since win95.
That's over 10 years.
For 10 years the other keyboards have slowly incorporated this key.
The key is very useful if you know what the keys are.
But how often do you need to open Windows Explorer as compared to typing ""? Have you ever used a German keyboard?

To be honest I use them at least the same.
I use Win+E all the time to open up Windows Explorer, and then often have to type \\server to pull up files that I'm looking for.
I use Win+R to type CMD, and pull up the command prompt, then have to type cd\windows (or whatever).
I really do find the WIN key useful - it's small on this keyboard, but I've found out how to use it comfortably over the past few days.
And no, never used a German keyboard. I'm sure a German keyboard would be a great test of a keyboard - those Germans use such LONG words.

feklee wrote:
The ESC key is not to the left of the F1 key.
The cursor keys are lower down than the space bar.
PrntScrn is above F10, not to the right of F12.
The average user won't need these keys very often, and, furthermore, at least they're reasonable sized.

The point was just that other keys are not where they are supposed to be. I often hit ESC by hitting the top left button on the keyboard - on the X60 I find myself hitting F1 a bunch. Not a problem, I've gotten used to it.
People seem to be complaining about where various keys are, but I've never seen complaints about these specific keys. I'm not complaining, just pointing that these are also not in the 'correct' place.

feklee wrote:
Ctrl is not in the bottom left of the keyboard.
That's a drawback - I agree. AFAICS, it would make more sense to move the FN key between the Strg and Alt keys, and perhaps bundle it's functionality with that of the Windows key.

I agree, CTRL and FN should be switched.
I would never want to mix FN & WIN keys though, the FN key is too important on this laptop.

feklee wrote:
There, now will people please quit talking about abstract ideas and just sit down and do some work for a change.
Well, no-one is forced to read this forum.

Yeah, and here I am reading it during working hours - again.

:D:D

First Light · #48 Post by **First Light** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:11 pm

Christ, you buy a compact laptop and then complain about the size of the keyboard. You need to go back to the basics and figger out why you are here.

basketboy · #49 Post by **basketboy** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:59 am

I suggest that Lenovo could make the type of the keyboard an option to customize. You can choose which kind of keyboard you want. With the Windows key or without it. That might be better.

RS_003 · #50 Post by **RS_003** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:57 am

Yes, well they are not going to do that

(I asked them at the Cebit.. but once again no real answer... the same with the UltraLight TFT's ... they didn't even knew it was an option

)

jgsx · #51 Post by **jgsx** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:49 pm

I upgraded from the X40 to the X60s. The keyboard on the X60s is sooo much better. I don't see why people hate on the windows keys. I use them all the time. I had to reprogram my left Alt key to act at the windows key on my X40, so I lost that Alt key, which was frustrating in Photoshop. I am very happy that they added the keys to the X60 series.

cj3209 · #52 Post by **cj3209** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:31 pm

Am typing on an X60s and it feels like an 'IBM' keyboard to me. Although I don't like the decrease in size of some of the keys after adding a windows key. Still not a dealbreaker. This keyboard is still the best in the business; I like it better than my powerbook.

As for the trackpoint color changes; yes, it does look plain now without the red and blue stripes but in all honesty, we don't use Thinkpads for their looks but for their quality and functionality.

As far as I'm concerned, the X60 is a solid step forward from the X41 series which was weak IMHO.

Just my two cents...

tsammyc · #53 Post by **tsammyc** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:00 am

mroth wrote: What strikes me most about those pictures is how much disapointingly fatter the X60s is than the X40. That site explicitly identifies the model as a X60s, but I wonder if it was perhaps a X60. If that is in fact a X60s, the X60 must be even more ridiculously back-heavy. Do good photographs exist anywhere of the difference between the X60 and X60s in thickness?

I have both with me right now (X40 and X60S). The X60S is actually thinner in front than the X40 so size wise there is really no perceptible difference. The reason it may look much thicker at the back is that the battery protrudes out of the bottom to slope the keyboard. The X60S IS more back heavy than the X40 so it is slightly more unweildy, but you can still carry it easily with one hand open or closed so its fine overall.

RS_003 · #54 Post by **RS_003** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:23 am

jgsx wrote:I upgraded from the X40 to the X60s. The keyboard on the X60s is sooo much better. I don't see why people hate on the windows keys. I use them all the time. I had to reprogram my left Alt key to act at the windows key on my X40, so I lost that Alt key, which was frustrating in Photoshop. I am very happy that they added the keys to the X60 series.

That sounds promising, since I said the keyboard on my X40 was the best IBM keyboard I ever used... and in second place my current X31 keyboard

abvc · #55 Post by **abvc** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:18 pm

nickpoore wrote:To be honest I use them at least the same.
I use Win+E all the time to open up Windows Explorer, and then often have to type \\server to pull up files that I'm looking for.
I use Win+R to type CMD, and pull up the command prompt, then have to type cd\windows (or whatever).
I really do find the WIN key useful - it's small on this keyboard, but I've found out how to use it comfortably over the past few days.
And no, never used a German keyboard. I'm sure a German keyboard would be a great test of a keyboard - those Germans use such LONG words.

first, it's more troublesome to open win explorer using win+e rather than a single click on quick launch. second, after you open the explorer you are going to use your mouse to navigate around.

dr_st · #56 Post by **dr_st** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:32 pm

abvc wrote:first, it's more troublesome to open win explorer using win+e rather than a single click on quick launch.

No.

abvc wrote:second, after you open the explorer you are going to use your mouse to navigate around.

Not necessarily, but most likely yes, so what?

#57 Post by **tomh009** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:12 pm

dr_st wrote:
abvc wrote:first, it's more troublesome to open win explorer using win+e rather than a single click on quick launch.
No.

abvc wrote:second, after you open the explorer you are going to use your mouse to navigate around.
Not necessarily, but most likely yes, so what?

But even if you want to use the keyboard, you don't need a "Windows key"!

Windows = Ctrl+Esc
Run = Windows R = Ctrl+Esc R
Explorer = Windows E = Ctrl+Esc E
etc etc

Why even bother mapping a key when Ctrl+Esc does exactly that?

Tom

trentblase · #58 Post by **trentblase** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:19 am

I too find the Windows keys eminently useful. In fact, I was bewildered by the fact that my T42 didn't have them. In the last few weeks of real-world touch-typing tests on my new X60s, I haven't once had a problem with copying, pasting, alt-f4ing, etc. The only problem I've had with the keyboard has been that I miss the backspace occasionally. I don't even notice the button differences. Finally, the key-feel seems the same between the T42 and the X60s.

dr_st · #59 Post by **dr_st** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:32 pm

tomh009 wrote:Why even bother mapping a key when Ctrl+Esc does exactly that?

Because it doesn't.

#60 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

tomh009 wrote:Why even bother mapping a key when Ctrl+Esc does exactly that?

dr_st wrote:Because it doesn't.

Eh? Can you be more specific?

X60 series keyboard (its terrible)

Should Lenovo stick to the OLD style keyboards?

it is not as bad as it could be

Re: it is not as bad as it could be

Make it your choice

Re: it is not as bad as it could be

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