X60 series keyboard (its terrible)

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dr_st · #61 Post by **dr_st** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:09 pm

tomh009 wrote:
tomh009 wrote:Why even bother mapping a key when Ctrl+Esc does exactly that?

dr_st wrote:Because it doesn't.
Eh? Can you be more specific?

None of the shortcuts that work with the Windows key work with Ctrl+Esc. Should have tried it before claiming it to work.

#62 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:43 pm

dr_st wrote:None of the shortcuts that work with the Windows key work with Ctrl+Esc. Should have tried it before claiming it to work.

OK, so I press Ctrl+Esc on my trusty x31. The Start menu press pops up. I now press "R" and the "Run" window pops up. Hence my claim that
Ctrl+Esc R = Windows + R = Run
etc. I use this all the time ...

The specific programs that you can pop up quickly depend on what you have in your Start menu, though.

Besides that, all the trusty Windows shortcut 2.x keys like Alt+Tab, Alt+space and Alt+minus still work ...

pphilipko · #63 Post by **pphilipko** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:54 pm

dr_st wrote:
tomh009 wrote: Eh? Can you be more specific?
None of the shortcuts that work with the Windows key work with Ctrl+Esc. Should have tried it before claiming it to work.

It worked for me after a bit of exploring.

Press Ctrl + Esc holding both down. Let go of the two keys. The Start Menu should show up. THEN, you press 'r', 'd', or whatever letter you want.

Personally, I feel the Windows key addition is a ridiculous idea and a backward step for Lenovo/IBM, as every other key is that much more shrunk. After all, as Tom so kindly pointed out, Ctrl+Esc works just as well.

By the way, Tom, where'd you learn all of these nifty key shortcuts?

valiar · #64 Post by **valiar** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:43 pm

My favorite shortcut, Windows-M (hides all windows and shows desktop) does not work through Ctrl-Esc. For me, this alone makes Windows key somewhat worthwile.
However, the "context menu" key Lenovo added on the right side is utterly ridiculous and totally useless (yet for some reason nobody has yet complained about it). It is basically an equivalent of the right mouse button (which is what, 2 inches away?), and has no useful shortcuts associated with it that I am aware of.
In the end, my attitude towards the Windows key addition is "meh", but I am [censored] at the useless "context" key.

dr_st · #65 Post by **dr_st** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:15 am

No shortcuts work through Ctrl+Esc, period. Ctrl+Esc always pops the start menu on keydown (unlike Windows key that doesn't pop it until keyup), so while it may thing that Ctrl+Esc+R works, really the only reason it works is because "R" happens to be assigned to Run in the start menu. Some Windows key shortcuts have nothing to do with the start menu (like Win+E, Win+D, Win+Break, Ctrl+Win+F, etc). These don't work with Ctrl+Esc and never will work.

pphilipko · #66 Post by **pphilipko** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:37 am

dr_st wrote:No shortcuts work through Ctrl+Esc, period. Ctrl+Esc always pops the start menu on keydown (unlike Windows key that doesn't pop it until keyup), so while it may thing that Ctrl+Esc+R works, really the only reason it works is because "R" happens to be assigned to Run in the start menu. Some Windows key shortcuts have nothing to do with the start menu (like Win+E, Win+D, Win+Break, Ctrl+Win+F, etc). These don't work with Ctrl+Esc and never will work.

Regardless, as I never use the Windows key, I find it unnecessary and VERY annoying. I'd rather have bigger control and alt keys.

#67 Post by **tomh009** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:44 am

valiar wrote:My favorite shortcut, Windows-M (hides all windows and shows desktop) does not work through Ctrl-Esc. For me, this alone makes Windows key somewhat worthwile.

Indeed, not available through Ctrl+Esc. That's why I keep the little "Show Desktop" icon in the quick launch bar. You need to use the trackpoint to get to it, but, then, you probably want to use the trackpoint anyway once you have the desktop showing.

dr_st · #68 Post by **dr_st** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:48 am

pphilipko wrote:Regardless, as I never use the Windows key, I find it unnecessary and VERY annoying. I'd rather have bigger control and alt keys.

You cannot please everyone.

#69 Post by **tomh009** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:50 am

pphilipko wrote:Personally, I feel the Windows key addition is a ridiculous idea and a backward step for Lenovo/IBM, as every other key is that much more shrunk. After all, as Tom so kindly pointed out, Ctrl+Esc works just as well.

By the way, Tom, where'd you learn all of these nifty key shortcuts?

I'm old. : )

I grew up with systems that didn't have mice -- from IBM's big iron to TRS-80 to UNIX systems, so keyboard is important to me. And when I first used a Mac (in 1984 ... ) and then started to use Windows (with first Windows 2.1, and then Windows/386, and then the very exciting Windows 3.0!) the shortcut keys were very important.

I still use the key combinations almost exclusively to copy and paste, for example. Much faster than menus, whether the main application menus or the context menus ...

#70 Post by **tomh009** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:13 am

dr_st wrote:No shortcuts work through Ctrl+Esc, period. Ctrl+Esc always pops the start menu on keydown (unlike Windows key that doesn't pop it until keyup), so while it may thing that Ctrl+Esc+R works, really the only reason it works is because "R" happens to be assigned to Run in the start menu. Some Windows key shortcuts have nothing to do with the start menu (like Win+E, Win+D, Win+Break, Ctrl+Win+F, etc). These don't work with Ctrl+Esc and never will work.

It is indeed limited to the start menu, but I find there are enough shortcuts that I don't miss the Windows keys on either my x31, or the Model M2 keyboard on my desktop. ; )

Win+E = Ctrl+Esc R explorer <enter>
(more typing, but Explorer is normally cached in the MRU list, so it's fast enough for me as often as I need an Explorer window. More often I'll type a local or UNC path directly in the Run window.)

Win+D
(As noted in another post, I use the icon in the quick launch area.

Win+Break
(System properties? I think I have looked at the system properties twice this year so far ...)

Win+F = Ctrl+Esc F <enter>
(An extra keystroke to hit Enter, but not bad. Or does Ctrl+Win+F do something different?)

Gee · #71 Post by **Gee** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:25 pm

dr_st wrote: Stop being stupid. The Windows keys are NOT useless. To you they might be, but there is a large community of people that uses them a lot. Don't want to? Don't use it. What makes more sense? To give them to people who might find them useful or to keep them away for the sake of purists who absolutely refuse to live with a Ctrl key that is a bit smaller?

Every keyboard out there now, besides IBM, has Windows keys. How's the simple fact that the keys are there makes the system unfriendly to Linux users?

It's kinda like the touchpad issue. Personally, I find the touchpad completely unusable and always use the trackpoint. But there are lots of people who aren't like that and for their sake IBM/Lenovo started putting dual pointing devices on their laptops. I see that as a welcome change.

I understand that introducing the Windows keys changes the keyboard layout slightly and it might be uncomfortable to adjust for people who are used to the old one. I felt EXACTLY the same when Windows keys first started appearing on desktop keyboards. I was furious too. But adjusting wasn't too hard. No longer do I hit the Windows key by accident, and I make full use of the keyboard shortcuts that employ that key, to speed things up.

If the Windows keys never appeared and MS would have used other keyboard shortcuts, chances are nobody would ever mind. But the Windows keys are there, they are the standard, and if you want to appeal to the masses - better respect standards.

I guess it Microsoft rules the world eh? Not a monopoly? A whole key dedicated to the Start Button. Yes, I know you can use it for other short cuts etc. But only in Windows.

Nice to know that if Microsoft says jump, you say how high?

Lenovo should have stood their ground like IBM did. Don't let a bully push you around.

I for one use the CTRL and ALT keys a lot more than I would ever use a Windows key. Especially on a notebook. I am sure most of us here live on shortcuts and there are plenty more of them using the other two keys than the few found with the Windows key.

tomh009 wrote:
pphilipko wrote:Personally, I feel the Windows key addition is a ridiculous idea and a backward step for Lenovo/IBM, as every other key is that much more shrunk. After all, as Tom so kindly pointed out, Ctrl+Esc works just as well.

By the way, Tom, where'd you learn all of these nifty key shortcuts?
I'm old. : )

I grew up with systems that didn't have mice -- from IBM's big iron to TRS-80 to UNIX systems, so keyboard is important to me. And when I first used a Mac (in 1984 ... ) and then started to use Windows (with first Windows 2.1, and then Windows/386, and then the very exciting Windows 3.0!) the shortcut keys were very important.

I still use the key combinations almost exclusively to copy and paste, for example. Much faster than menus, whether the main application menus or the context menus ...

I am with you. I am still using the original IBM 101 Keyboard from my 286. Best keyboard on the planet. No Windows key there.

For us old schoolers, Cut and Paste is different (still works)

Shift Del - Cut
Shift Ins - Paste

Kind of makes more sense when you think about it.

korny · #72 Post by **korny** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:42 am

As a linux user, and new to thinkpads entirely, I'm finding the Windows key no problem at all - eventually I'll probably map it to something else, but for now it's not a hassle.

My real problem is the Escape key - it's too darn far away from the keyboard. Every time I use 'vi' I keep hitting F1 instead of Escape! I'm sure eventually my fingers will learn this layout, but I'm finding it much harder than any of the other changes. Escape is two rows above the letter keys, left of F1... not some magic key further up the keyboard.

And, while I'm whinging

I also keep hitting the 'Fn' key when I want Ctrl - this one I'm slowly learning, but again, changing the key that is on the edge of the keyboard breaks all my subconscious finger-training.

Compared to these, the Windows key is no hassle.

(I'm only semi-serious here - keyboard layout on an ultra-portable is always going to be a compromise, and the keyboard *feel* is wonderful.)

ObOldSchool: it sure beats the keyboard on my zx-80 ...

- Korny

dr_st · #73 Post by **dr_st** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:52 am

Gee wrote:I guess it Microsoft rules the world eh? Not a monopoly? A whole key dedicated to the Start Button. Yes, I know you can use it for other short cuts etc. But only in Windows.

Nice to know that if Microsoft says jump, you say how high?

Lenovo should have stood their ground like IBM did. Don't let a bully push you around.

And I will say to you too - stop being stupid and take your Microsoft-hating elsewhere. It doesn't matter why the Windows keys are standard now. What matters is that they are. The great thing about Linux is that you can program everything they way you should. Now that many Linux GUIs are completely copying the Windows interface (I guess MS pushes them around too, eh?), what makes more sense that assign the same shortcuts to the Windows key?

Gee wrote:I for one use the CTRL and ALT keys a lot more than I would ever use a Windows key. Especially on a notebook. I am sure most of us here live on shortcuts and there are plenty more of them using the other two keys than the few found with the Windows key.

And I use F4 much more than F11. Come to think about it - I barely use F11 at all. So does that mean Lenovo should ditch that F11 key so that the other, more commonly used F-keys can be a bit larger? Hell, why not? Oh, because there might be users who would like to use F11 to enter-exit full screen mode on their browser and other stuff? Ah, screw them. There are plenty of other keys and ways to accomplish the same thing.

The point is nobody is taking the Ctrl/Alt keys away from you, so let those who actually make use of the Windows key do so.

Gee wrote:For us old schoolers, Cut and Paste is different (still works)

Shift Del - Cut
Shift Ins - Paste

Kind of makes more sense when you think about it.

You left out, Ctrl+Ins - copy.

Indeed, Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V were introduced for simplicity on QWERTY keyboards. Don't make much sense for Dvorak fans, do they?

#74 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:12 pm

dr_st wrote:
Gee wrote:For us old schoolers, Cut and Paste is different (still works)

Shift Del - Cut
Shift Ins - Paste

Kind of makes more sense when you think about it.
You left out, Ctrl+Ins - copy.

Indeed, Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V were introduced for simplicity on QWERTY keyboards. Don't make much sense for Dvorak fans, do they?

Actually the Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V were brought over from the Mac world -- even the old 128K Macs used Cmd+Z, Cmd+X, Cmd+C and Cmd+V. Much quicker than reaching over to the numeric keypad (not that the original Macs had one).

#75 Post by **tomh009** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:15 pm

korny wrote:As a linux user, and new to thinkpads entirely, I'm finding the Windows key no problem at all - eventually I'll probably map it to something else, but for now it's not a hassle.

My real problem is the Escape key - it's too darn far away from the keyboard. Every time I use 'vi' I keep hitting F1 instead of Escape! I'm sure eventually my fingers will learn this layout, but I'm finding it much harder than any of the other changes. Escape is two rows above the letter keys, left of F1... not some magic key further up the keyboard.

For vi, the solution is simple -- Ctrl+[ is the same as Esc! ; )

sanjoy · #76 Post by **sanjoy** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:08 pm

korny wrote:My real problem is the Escape key - it's too darn far away from the keyboard. Every time I use 'vi' I keep hitting F1 instead of Escape!

I use Emacs all day and use xmodmap or loadkeys to remap CapsLock -> ctrl. Then I use ctrl-[ to generate ESC. It's a very fast sequence since the two keys are on different hands, and you never have to take your hands off the home row. And easy to learn: The [ key is in the same location on pretty much every keyboard, as is the ctrl key once you remap the useless CapsLock key.

Without looking at the keyboard, I have no idea where ESC is on this keyboard (600X) [it turns out to be in the upper left above F1] and couldn't say for almost any keyboard I've used in the last 10 years.

-Sanjoy

#77 Post by **archer6** » Wed May 17, 2006 6:34 pm

snife wrote:My point was change alone is no reason to assume it is not as good. I am sure there are some people who actually prefer the aesthetics of the new keyboards, either way though, I just think people should wait till they have used it before complaining;

Well said.

I must admit that as a long time ThinkPad user I liked the red stripes and color of the old touch pad & mouse button design, as well as the size and shape. This includes the power/volume buttons as well.
However now that I have had my new 60 series ThinkPads for awhile, I have very happy with the changes that have been made and find no loss of functionality as a result of these changes. I have read critical reviews regarding the (slight) reduction in the touchpad size and frankly I do not even notice it at all. Now that I'm used to these changes, I must admit that I really like the new look.

hutty2000 · #78 Post by **hutty2000** » Thu May 18, 2006 1:55 am

RS_003 wrote:Hey, Since I owned a X40 and currently own a X31 I need something of my mind.

Why the *beep* has Lenovo changed the keyboard?

It doesn’t have the red and blue stripes on the trackpoint buttons anymore, and worse they are square instead of nice and forming (can make pics, but I think you know what I mean)

Also they changed the power and Access IBM buttons, and again not for the better.

Is there anyway to convince Lenovo NOT to do this???
Because I really don't want an X60 if the keyboard stays as bad as it looks right now.

(otherwise... X60s here I come )

X series owners! Let Lenovo hear of you!

Can not agree more, but what could we do???
I also think the design change on the key board is a [censored], especially on T60, The change on touch pad botton is really bad.

hutty2000 · #79 Post by **hutty2000** » Thu May 18, 2006 2:02 am

RS_003 wrote:Yes, but that’s just one problem.

There Are more. (the keyboard now: looks cheap, it looks uncomfortable, it looks ugly, and so fort.)
So, my question is, how can we get this message to lenovo?

how can we get this message to lenovo?
how can we get this message to lenovo?

trentblase · #80 Post by **trentblase** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:30 am

hutty2000 wrote:
RS_003 wrote:Yes, but that’s just one problem.

There Are more. (the keyboard now: looks cheap, it looks uncomfortable, it looks ugly, and so fort.)
So, my question is, how can we get this message to lenovo?
how can we get this message to lenovo?
how can we get this message to lenovo?

Two ways: contact them through official channels and vote with your dollars.

With that said, I have no problem with the new design.

#81 Post by **archer6** » Thu May 18, 2006 11:58 am

RS_003 wrote:Because I really don't want an X60 if the keyboard stays as bad as it looks right now. (otherwise... X60s here I come )

While I agree that the earlier keyboard/touchpad/mouse buttons were more attractive, I use my computer to do work. It's the tool I make a living with. Looks are secondary, it's all about functionality and I find my X60s an excellent performer.

hutty2000 wrote:Can not agree more, but what could we do???

What you could do is buy a Dell, Sony, Hp, or any other brand. Then you would have a really horrible keyboard/touchpad/mouse button unit.
That experience would make it obvious that the ThinkPad keyboard is an excellent keyboard/touchpad/mouse button unit.

RS_003 · #82 Post by **RS_003** » Fri May 19, 2006 4:40 pm

I never said the performance isn't good... I stated that I do NOT like the removal of the (albeit little) red and blue colors...

X60 series keyboard (its terrible)

Should Lenovo stick to the OLD style keyboards?

Standard?

Re: Standard?

Re: Standard?

Re: X60 series keyboard (its terrible)

Re: X60 series keyboard (its terrible)

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