Another interesting Chinese industry purchase

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K. Eng
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Another interesting Chinese industry purchase

#1 Post by K. Eng » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:58 pm

Looks like Detroit might be in for another round of severe pounding in a couple years:

NYT imes article
CHONGQING, China, Feb. 16 — China is pursuing a novel way to catapult its automaking into a global force: buy one of the world's most sophisticated engine plants, take it apart, piece by piece, transport it halfway around the globe and put it back together again at home.

In the latest sign of this country's manufacturing ambitions, a major Chinese company, hand-in-hand with the Communist Party, is bidding to buy from DaimlerChrysler and BMW a car engine plant in Brazil.

Because the plant is so sophisticated, it is far more feasible for the Chinese carmaker, the Lifan Group, to go through such an effort to move it 8,300 miles, rather than to develop its own technology in this industrial hub in western China, the company's president said Thursday.

If the purchase succeeds — and it is early in the process — China could leapfrog competitors like South Korea to catch up with Japan, Germany and the United States in selling some of the most fuel-efficient yet comfortable cars on the market, like the Honda Civic or the Toyota Corolla.
Wages of less than $100 a month have helped control the cost. The assembly plant is better organized than many Chinese factories, although it still maintains large inventories of parts and materials awaiting assembly, incurring interest charges to finance these supplies.

Mr. Yin has no doubts that China can also compete with the United States.

"Americans work 5 days a week, we in China work 7 days," he said. "Americans work 8 hours a day, and we work 16 hours."
There's no way that Ford and GM will be able to compete if this company can make an automobile that Americans will buy. In the short term, China's workforce is virtually limitless, which will keep Chinese labor costs down and Chinese automobiles correspondingly inexpensive.

I guess this probably means more auto workers out of work and a higher trade deficit for the United States :(
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#2 Post by jdhurst » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:34 pm

China competes by using very low wages - that has been true for decades. But I don't buy the statement that they work 16 hours a day 7 days a week. ... JD Hurst

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China

#3 Post by schen » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:18 pm

It's generally about 9-10 hours per day for 6 days a week. Plus the overhead for industries is VERY low. Nationalized health care and retirement, and most importantly eliminate the cost of litigation or potential litigation!
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#4 Post by christopher_wolf » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:11 pm

You can also get some very good engineers over in China for a low price; last I heard, $5000 USD per year if I recall correctly.
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#5 Post by dsvochak » Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:26 pm

If this trend continues it might be wise to learn how to say "Do you want fries with that?" in Chinese.
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#6 Post by K. Eng » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:24 pm

I just wonder what if anything can be done to soften the impact of globalization. Manufacturing has already been hit pretty hard, and if engineering and other technical professions suddenly go away, there are going to be a lot of middle class people with nothing to do.

Some professions are fairly insulated from globalization - the defense industry will stay healthy simply because the government won't allow certain types of work to be done abroad, but not everyone can be designing weapons :?

Service professions like doctors, lawyers, and teachers are also pretty immune. These are jobs that are highly state-regulated and require the person to actually be present with clients, patients, and students. But again not everyone can be or wants to be in these professions.
dsvochak wrote:If this trend continues it might be wise to learn how to say "Do you want fries with that?" in Chinese.
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#7 Post by BillMorrow » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:45 am

read thomas friedman's book..

the world is flat..

i would be interested in the response from this most knowledgable group..

really.. :)
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Globalization

#8 Post by schen » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:54 pm

It's all about history and funny thing.... it repeats itself on a regular basis :lol: Yeah, I'm a history teacher, but I mostly gained my perspective from being the son of a Chinese Engineer who grew up in West Texas. My dad and I have lived globalization. He was a Textile engineer all his adult life. After the Communist decided to thrust China's head in the sand for half a century, he and his colleagues worked in places like Hong Kong, Africa, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, New Zealand and finally United States. The late 60's and early 70's (when we moved from HK), was the last years of American Textile industry (cost of labor, cost of litigation- very dangerous industry, and OSHA) effectively moved all production overseas by the late 80's. I was a fresh graduate with an Agricultural Economics degree (read Agri-Business) in West Texas cotton country and went to work for a Cotton company. I the 2 years before I decided I hated the work and went back to school to get a Masters Degree, I saw our company go from shipping exclusively to the Carolinas and Georgia to 85+ % over seas! My dad in the meantime basically had to retire since there were no more mills for him to run.

The computer industry is just the latest to go down this well-worn path. But in a general sense, as long as Americans can keep coming up with ideal, we'll be OK. Actually, I have a strong belief that it's what we do best. Our society in it's current state encourages spontaneous free-thinking (for lack of a better term). Of course the downside is that our society is somewhat more chaotic than others. Other more regimented cultures have more efficient societies, but have the negative side-effect of quashing different ideas (as well as people who are different) as well. I believe we'll see a Japan effect sooner or later. Where the growth and development slows down and their are resessionary effects. Also, one of the things that the Japanese had to do was to put design centers in the U.S. where they could get more original ideas, but then engineered the products at home.

I'll get down off my soapbox now :twisted:
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#9 Post by dsvochak » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:05 pm

Thomas Friedman is correct, as far as he goes. In certain arenas, the world is indeed flat. And it doesn't matter if the guy answering the tech support line, or taking a plane reservation, or reading my x-ray, is in India, or anywhere else.

On the other hand consider this quote from a speech given by Pat Buchanan (Address to Chicago Council on Foreign Relations, 11/18/98 full text available at http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/read.freetrade.html )
Here, then, is the first cost of open-borders free trade. It exacerbates the divisions between capital and labor. It separates societies into contending classes, and deepens the division between rich and poor. Under free trade, economic and social elites, whose jobs and incomes are not adversely impacted by imports or immigration, do well. For them, these have been the best of times. Since 1990, the stock market has tripled in value; corporate profits have doubled since 1992; there has been a population explosion among millionaires. America's richest one percent controlled 21 percent of the national wealth in 1949; in 1997 it was 40 percent. Top CEO salaries were 44 times the average wage of their workers in 1965; by 1996 they were 212 times an average worker's pay.

How has Middle America fared? Between 1972 and 1994, the real wages of working Americans fell 19 percent. In 1970, the price of a new house was twice a young couple's income; it is now four times. In 1960, 18 percent of women with children under six were in the work force; by 1995 it had risen 63 percent. The U.S. has a larger percentage of women in its work force than any industrial nation, yet median family income fell 6 percent in the first six years of the 1990s.

Something is wrong when wage earners work harder and longer just to stay in the same place. Under the free trade regime, economic insecurity has become a preexisting condition of life.
------------------------------
In the 1950s, "Engine Charlie" Wilson immortalized himself with the remark, "What's good for America is good for General Motors, and vice versa." What Engine Charlie said was true, when he said it. We see that now as we watch GM closing factories here and opening up abroad. GM's four newest plants are going up in Argentina, Poland, China, and Thailand. "GM's days of building new plants in North America may be over," says the Wall Street Journal.

GM used to be the largest employer in the United States; today, it is the largest employer in Mexico where it has built 50 plants in 20 years. In Juarez alone, there are 18 plants of Delphi Automotive, a GM subsidiary. Across from Juarez, El Paso is becoming a glorified truck stop, as Texans watch their manufacturing jobs go south.
Even though Mr. Buchanan almost sounds like a "socialist", what he's really talking about is what he calls "Economic Nationalism". And what he means by "Economic Nationalism" is this: "In these unique national economies, critical decisions are based on what is best for the nation." His next sentence is "Only in America do leaders sacrifice the interests of their own country on the altar of that golden calf, the Global Economy."

There is a story, perhaps apocryphal but often repeated in Michigan, about a visit then UAW President Walter Reuther took to one of the first Ford plants to start using robot welders. During the visit, a Ford VP looked at the robots, turned to Reuther and said "Walter, none of these robots pay dues to UAW". Reuther's immediate response was "Yeah, and none of them buy Ford cars either".

In Time Magazine Lee Iacocca said, about Henry Ford, "Ford instituted industrial mass production, but what really mattered to him was mass consumption. He figured that if he paid his factory workers a real living wage and produced more cars in less time for less money, everyone would buy them.".

Is it possible that there is a correlation between Ford, Chrysler and GM experiencing difficulties and "Between 1972 and 1994, the real wages of working Americans fell 19 percent."? Does it make sense for Delphi to offer a plan to cut wages to $9 per hour if this is the effect:

"If autoworkers at Delphi get paid $9 an hour, the rest of society will have to subsidize them. At $9 an hour, a worker would earn below the federal governments poverty level for a family of four. This means that other Americans will pay for food stamps, housing vouchers, Medicaid and other poverty supplements to sustain Delphi workers at the poverty level." ( http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm?id=2219 )

And if you make $9/hour, how many new GM vehicles are you buying?

Schen's commented "...I saw our company go from shipping exclusively to the Carolinas and Georgia to 85+ % over seas! My dad in the meantime basically had to retire since there were no more mills for him to run." And my question is what did all the workers in the mills do to pay their bills if they weren't old enough to retire?

K. Eng stated "Service professions like doctors, lawyers, and teachers are also pretty immune. These are jobs that are highly state-regulated and require the person to actually be present with clients, patients, and students." which is true, but service professions like lawyers, plumbers, and electricians, require the client to be present with cash. And when you concentrate wealth ("America's richest one percent controlled 21 percent of the national wealth in 1949; in 1997 it was 40 percent.") the pool of clients with cash is smaller. In Michigan, even teachers aren't immune as virtually every school district is feeling an economic pinch.

I'll close with one more quote from Pat Buchanan, who I would have never guessed I'd not only be quoting but agreeing with:
What is the wealth of nations? Is it stocks, bonds, derivatives - the pieces of paper traded on Wall Street that can be gone with in the wind? No, the true wealth of a nation lies in its factories, farms, fisheries, and mines, in the genius and capacities of its people. Industrial power is at the heart of economic power, and economic power is at the heart of strategic power. America won two world wars and the Cold War because our industrial power and technology proved beyond the ability of our enemies to match.
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#10 Post by K. Eng » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:36 pm

Point taken about the patient, client, customer being present with cash. A poorer society overall means less money on average per customer :(
What is the wealth of nations? Is it stocks, bonds, derivatives - the pieces of paper traded on Wall Street that can be gone with in the wind? No, the true wealth of a nation lies in its factories, farms, fisheries, and mines, in the genius and capacities of its people. Industrial power is at the heart of economic power, and economic power is at the heart of strategic power. America won two world wars and the Cold War because our industrial power and technology proved beyond the ability of our enemies to match.
Factories and mines seem to be in ever dwindling numbers in the United States these days. I can't say the same for food production though -- if there is one thing that the United States seems to have an unbeatable edge in it is food. Globalization has hit many third world farmers hard because they can't compete against cheap American food.
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#11 Post by Navck » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:49 pm

6 weeks a day? I know people like that in America. They don't take Saturday off.
Realistically, 16 hours a day is a lie, my dad (In China) works only for 8 hours like we do in the US.

Anyways, they can get the lower wages because everything costs less there.

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#12 Post by GomJabbar » Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:07 pm

Very well written dsvochak.

Pat Buchanan - who knew? I often watch the McLaughlin Group where Pat Buchanan is one of the regular talking heads. I usually don't agree with him, but sometimes he surprises you (or me anyway). I like watching these talking head programs to see how the different commentators present their case, and to get a feel for how Americans feel about different issues. To be forewarned is to be forearmed.

Regarding Globalization, I often feel that we (the plebeians) would be better off if the USA was more insular with their economy. Make at home, buy at home. On the other hand, the (Third) World is better off economically with Globalization. There is a leveling of economic wealth between the wealther nations and the poorer ones. Great for the people that were making $100/month!

The real benefactor's of Globalization are the elite class. If this keeps up, we will end up, economically speaking, in the Medieval Ages. Kings, Dukes, Earls, Lords, Barons, peasants and all that. Of course we know where the bulk of the population fits in this scheme of things.
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#13 Post by DataAve » Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:33 pm

We will be void of a middle class. Have I said that correctly?
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#14 Post by BillMorrow » Sun May 21, 2006 11:37 am

DataAve wrote:We will be void of a middle class. Have I said that correctly?
yes..

but the point to be considered is: "OK, now what..?"

pandora is out of her box and we (who "we" really are is a good question) are about to be decorated with the spit we just spit into the wind.. :shock:

i don't believe that we can have a closed society and survive with an economy that sells only to one another..

so, i ask those who care, how would they suggest we proceed..

at least friedman proposes a solution of a sort..

we must use our strengths while we still HAVE those strengths..

educate our children..

inspire them to greatness..

and, i think, end the feeling of entitlement they seem to have..

come ON, big yellow limousines all OVER, with everything stopping to bow and genuflect to the "children"..

the world is a hard place..

either that or become like england, a shadow of and nothing at ALL like, its former self..
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Our Children

#15 Post by schen » Sun May 21, 2006 1:57 pm

I teach middle school so on a daily basis, I see 12 to 14 year olds and they have changed greatly; correct that, the way they are raised has changed greatly. As a group, their parents in the low to mid-30s range are some of the most immature people I've ever dealt with. This has changed a lot since I taught my first year of 7th grade some 17 years ago. And this isn't about me becoming embittered... I worked for 10 years in higher education administration and IT, so this is my 2nd year back. As a group, the kids are a frightening reflexion of what their parents believe.

It can be summed up in one word; "entitlement". There is an overwhelming sense amoung our children that they should be given what they want without the need to be disciplined (in a senses of that word) and/or hard work. It's astonishing. We see it not only in the classroom, but even in athletics. IMHO, I believe strongly that much of this has the do with parents who are more interested in being friends with their kids than a true parent who's primary job is to raise them to be responsible adults. Unfortunatley I find that in all too many cases, it's because they themselves don't have any idea how to be responsible adults.
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Re: Our Children

#16 Post by K. Eng » Sun May 21, 2006 6:37 pm

Ok, so it's not just me who notices this. It's kind of hard to swallow since younger folk like me are implicitly taught that adults are responsible and generally wise people. Now I realize that there are plenty of people in their 30's and 40's who are complete jackasses.

Thus, as a rule of thumb, I don't trust anyone solely based on their age. A lot of these jackasses think they are entitled to respect and everything else simply because they are old. I say that respect has to be earned, not given.
schen wrote: As a group, their parents in the low to mid-30s range are some of the most immature people I've ever dealt with. This has changed a lot since I taught my first year of 7th grade some 17 years ago. And this isn't about me becoming embittered... I worked for 10 years in higher education administration and IT, so this is my 2nd year back. As a group, the kids are a frightening reflexion of what their parents believe.
...
Unfortunatley I find that in all too many cases, it's because they themselves don't have any idea how to be responsible adults.
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Re: Our Children

#17 Post by christopher_wolf » Sun May 21, 2006 7:15 pm

schen wrote:I teach middle school so on a daily basis, I see 12 to 14 year olds and they have changed greatly; correct that, the way they are raised has changed greatly. As a group, their parents in the low to mid-30s range are some of the most immature people I've ever dealt with. This has changed a lot since I taught my first year of 7th grade some 17 years ago. And this isn't about me becoming embittered... I worked for 10 years in higher education administration and IT, so this is my 2nd year back. As a group, the kids are a frightening reflexion of what their parents believe.

It can be summed up in one word; "entitlement". There is an overwhelming sense amoung our children that they should be given what they want without the need to be disciplined (in a senses of that word) and/or hard work. It's astonishing. We see it not only in the classroom, but even in athletics. IMHO, I believe strongly that much of this has the do with parents who are more interested in being friends with their kids than a true parent who's primary job is to raise them to be responsible adults. Unfortunatley I find that in all too many cases, it's because they themselves don't have any idea how to be responsible adults.
The solution is simple in one sense, difficult in another; Dedication, Hard Work, Perseverance, Dedication...Rarely, though, do you find all of those traits in kids now unless they themselves put it upon them to rise up to the occasion.

And I have noticed that about parents as well; there really isn't much to be said for that type of thirtysomething age group that tries to rear a group of kids in an inconsistent and abberant fashion. Respect does indeed have to be earned and learnt how to be *kept*.
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Re: Our Children

#18 Post by bill bolton » Sun May 21, 2006 7:33 pm

christopher_wolf wrote:The solution is simple in one sense, difficult in another; Dedication, Hard Work, Perseverance, Dedication...
Nah, it will never work... you can't get a discount on any of that! :shock:

Cheers,

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Re: Our Children

#19 Post by GomJabbar » Sun May 21, 2006 7:40 pm

K. Eng wrote:Thus, as a rule of thumb, I don't trust anyone solely based on their age. A lot of these jackasses think they are entitled to respect and everything else simply because they are old. I say that respect has to be earned, not given.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Find out what it means to me

Trust and Respect are not the same thing. I can trust someone, yet not respect him. Likewise, I can respect someone, but not trust him. How is this possible?

I can trust someone who does not lie, and follows through with what they say, but his methods or immorality I do not respect.

I can respect someone that lives a moral life and is kind to others, yet not trust him due to flakiness or forgetfulness.

The above are but two examples, and are not meant to be all inclusive.

Both respect and trust have to be earned. Yet it is good to give the benefit of the doubt where possible. Obviously there are people in all age groups that deserve our respect and/or trust. To dismiss a group out-of-hand because we are not part of it, is not the noble thing to do.

Now, more to the topic at hand: I agree that it is not good that people feel they are entitled to something without having worked at it. I often feel that people are spoiled. They bridle at having to put up with any hardship or inconvenience. They feel they are entitled to keep up with the latest fad ([censored] the expense). They might work to get an education, or even get a job. But they have the attitude as expressed (by a maid) in the saying: "I don't do windows."

Sock it to me, Baby! :shock:
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