guys do you really like the T60?

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Filip · #1 Post by **Filip** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:47 pm

I am reading the comments here and I can't believe it...

Do you really like this?

I mean in latine "De gustibus non est disputandum", but I think that the new T60 sucks. It looks terrible to me, comparing it with the T4x series.

stupormunky1 · #2 Post by **stupormunky1** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:46 pm

Looks aren't exactly high on my priority list...

jobes · #3 Post by **jobes** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:54 pm

It goes beyond the pretty boy notebook.

lithium726 · #4 Post by **lithium726** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:40 pm

I do think the T4x were better designed notebooks... Externally only. We lost some functionality that (I) never used (SVID), and gained some i definatly will use (extra USB) as well as a beefier cooling solution. i dont like the keyboard changes, but as long as they retain the same quality, i dont care. i wish some of the design specifics of the T4x had stayed, like the slimming, beveled edges and the sharp front, but meh, i can deal with that.

the new thinkpad roll cage is, imo, AWESOME. im somewhat pleased with the graphics chip (although i do wish there were an x1600 option outside of the -p model), i cant wait to get my hands on one... core duo is awesome.

remember guys, these are NOT all lenovo's changes... same design teams, and this notebook has been being built since before lenovo took over... takes a long time to design a notebook like the T60, and it certainly did not happen since they took over.

jeremivw · #5 Post by **jeremivw** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:11 pm

lithium726 wrote:...remember guys, these are NOT all lenovo's changes... same design teams, and this notebook has been being built since before lenovo took over... takes a long time to design a notebook like the T60, and it certainly did not happen since they took over.

That's a GREAT point. It hasn't even been a year yet since the Lenovo deal was finalized (announced 12/04 finished 05/05).

kaotic504 · #6 Post by **kaotic504** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:29 pm

i haven't gotten my T60 yet, but from what i've seen, i like it. The roll cage is a HUGE plus. i like the idea of the drainage holes b/c i have had a spill on one of my laptops before and my heart always skips a beat when that happens. of course you could get an Intel Core Duo laptop for about $1000 or even below if you're going to go get a cheap Dell w/ a rebate, but you don't get the Security Software, the FingerPrint reader, the ThinkVantage recovery, the drainage, the rollcage and all the other features that you have with a Thinkpad. I hope i get my T60 and i hope i'm happy with it. the only things i have seen on reviews that i don't like are the buttons. i believe i will miss the red and blue mouse buttons and the way they were shaped. this thinkpad has an even more boring looking buttons, but it's all about functionality and not looks right? i gotta love the addition of the Windows key, i do use keyboard shortcuts a lot.

jeremivw · #7 Post by **jeremivw** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:55 am

I agree. Function b4 Form...always. Roll cage over beveled edges ANY DAY!

There has been much discussion about this in other threads. I'm sure if I had a T4x, I'd feel the same way about the design changes on the T60. However, since I've never had a ThinkPad, I'm not going to really "miss" anything...it will all be good to me (if the [censored] thing will just ship when it's supposed to)!

lithium726 · #8 Post by **lithium726** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:22 pm

well, as far as the pointy front.. not sure this actually is benefitial to fuction... with the pointy front, the speakers are positioned so that hte sound will bounce of hte desk and right back at hte user, and it works really well IMO.. im worried sound will be muffled now, but we'll see.

its been that way since the T2x series, so that is a HUGE change IMO.

Smilodon · #9 Post by **Smilodon** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:29 pm

I'm not buying the T60, specifically because it looks repulsive to me -- aspirin buttons and blue bubble gum. Absolutely fugly charcoal brick (sorry to all those who bought the T60 or drooling over one -- beauty is truly in the eye of beholder).

I'm waiting for either:

1) Lenovo come to their sense and lynch the idiot who designed it.
2) Lenovo come up with a new series and correct their atrocious design.
3) The T43p prices drop significantly.
4) HP comes up with a nice Core Duo successor to the NW8240.

Mandrake · #10 Post by **Mandrake** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:41 pm

stupormunky1 wrote:Looks aren't exactly high on my priority list...

They are on my list. I need something professional looking. Those laptops with the lights coming out of it or the Alien head on the back is more for the gamer crowd. I need basic, black and professional. I don't need my clients looking at something way out there in design which may hurt my credibility.

lithium726 · #11 Post by **lithium726** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:01 pm

Smilodon wrote:
1) Lenovo come to their sense and lynch the idiot who designed it.
2) Lenovo come up with a new series and correct their atrocious design.
3) The T43p prices drop significantly.
4) HP comes up with a nice Core Duo successor to the NW8240.

1/2) Lenovo didnt design it. IBM did. Like I said, the design of this notebook has been underway for a long time, you dont just come up with an entirely new motherboard that has gone through quality testing and a chassis in under a year (more like a few months actually...) it has NOT been that long since the Lenovo takeover, people. Further, the SAME design teams are working on Thinkpads, theyre just getting their paychecks from a different company. If Thinkpads start looking and feeling like Lenovo's own [censored] product lines, then youll have a case.

3) Youre complaining about design and wanting a T43p? The fan runs nonstop, theres the 2010 error, it gets [censored] for battery life, and the T42p was an all around better notebook.

4) HP's notebooks look like [censored], feel flimsy as all hell, have terrible keyboards, and are some of the most unreliable mahines I have ever used.

#12 Post by **RonS** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:16 pm

I think the Thinkpads look great. I don't have a T60 (it's ordered) but the others I've owned are all great-looking machines.

But what's more important is that Thinkpads exude quality, something that I've come to appreciate after traveling many years with my A21p. I filled several passports traveling with that machine, and it's still going strong and absolutely rock solid.

By looks alone, the Hyundai Tiburon might win over a Lexus LS430. If horsepower was the only spec, an old big-block Ford would also beat the Lexus. But true quality can't be described by specs alone. Only after spending time with a quality Thinkpad can one really appreciate it over the likes of Dell, Gateway and HP.

Once to get used to the quality of a Thinkpad's keyboard, it's hard to go back to anything else. And once you get used to driving a Lexus, it's hard to spend weeks in cheap rental cars where buttons feel like hollow plastic and cup holders snap off in your hand.

You have to look beyond appearance and specifications to understand why Thinkpads are the only notebook that have a cult-like following.

Phantom Gremlin · #13 Post by **Phantom Gremlin** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:46 pm

RonS wrote:You have to look beyond appearance and specifications to understand why Thinkpads are the only notebook that have a cult-like following.

I think you're forgetting something called the "Powerbook".

#14 Post by **RonS** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:54 pm

I thought about the powerbook. They're very nice. But for every one powerbook I see while out-and-about travelling, I see about 30 Thinkpads.

jeremivw · #15 Post by **jeremivw** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:56 pm

Phantom Gremlin wrote:
RonS wrote:You have to look beyond appearance and specifications to understand why Thinkpads are the only notebook that have a cult-like following.
I think you're forgetting something called the "Powerbook".

Powerbook owners would have to stop smoking pot and put down their paint brushes before they could start their own cult.

Mandrake · #16 Post by **Mandrake** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:58 pm

jeremivw wrote:
Phantom Gremlin wrote: I think you're forgetting something called the "Powerbook".
Powerbook owners would have to stop smoking pot and put down their paint brushes before they could start their own cult.

christopher_wolf · #17 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:07 am

Mandrake wrote:
jeremivw wrote: Powerbook owners would have to stop smoking pot and put down their paint brushes before they could start their own cult.

Hardy Har Har my friend

Both Thinkpads and Powerbooks have some pretty loyal fans; and I have both.

Now...Back to my Herbs.

wpwood3 · #18 Post by **wpwood3** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:34 am

I believe the overall design of the T60 is going to prove to be the best Thinkpad to date. The T20-30-40 series were all evolutionary but the T60 is more revolutionary. There seems to have been more of an emphasis on high performance...both from a computational and mechanical perspective.

No, I'm not wild about some of the cosmetic changes but, that's not why I have preferred Thinkpads. Most laptops do feel cheap to me but, Thinkpads are ROCK SOLID. The T60 simply excells in the rock solid catagory. It's a tool for work that can stand up to the punishment of the road.

Many mechanics prefer Snap-On tools. They are ungodly expensive compared to Sears Craftsman but, if you have ever used Snap-On you will never go back to Craftsman. Thinkpads are the Snap-On of the notebook world.

csioucs · #19 Post by **csioucs** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:19 pm

I am currently a owner of an aging T30. I have been using this machine since feb 2003. It has been a faithfull companion in MMMMMAAANNNYYY places and too varied circumstances. I have learned it pro and cons well.

What was earlier said about keyboard is absolutely true. I could not go back to my desktop...if in my country UltraNav keyboards were cheaper i'd have had one on every desktop I use (NMB).

I praise the T60 ram design. That's right!! Some of you less mobile think of it as upgrade awkward, but its way healthier - it cannot be squeezed - having the ram in a place where it can be pressed when held, or when it is packed, like in my T30, will damage the slot. Also in the T60 the heat done by the RAM is easier dissipated. And upwards is actually a better direction for this because there is nothing there that can reflect the heat back, as on a desk - in 3 years you can tell, since the toll is adding up (now those of you saying that in one year you'll upgrade...some of us buy things to last and work and don't have time searching and upgrading and gaming, or perhaps game otherwise too).

. (It's a big plus for me - I've changed the motherboard because of that on the T30)

Rollcage is fantastic. It may be one of the more convincing traits.

I do agree the slimming design had a certain appeal, was kind a sleek, is actually more kicking and perhaps stimulating pride (not good ). But the fluid and moderate line is say more mature, as someone said adds to seriousness (But hey, I use a T30, and the T60 is slimmer anyway

).

And finally. I do regret the redesign of the buttons. Abaxter on notebookreview said it best when he pointed out that the new ones look common, generic and bland, having the red and the blue removed. I like the ones that I have. The colour could have been retained (maybe i'll think of something about that..,) but the recessed character may be actually a better up for the longevity of the buttons. My leftclik buttons is beginning to feel loose.

All in all, the T60 will age harder and endure longer, and I think and that's a plus. Depends on the arrival of 64 bit computing and Lenovo's marketing if we'll have a T61 or a T70 by then.

#20 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:22 pm

Agree with you on the T43... the 2010 error annoyed people endlessly both here and on Ars Technica. Battery life isn't bad, but about .5 hrs worse than an equivalent T42.

I caution you on blanket statements concerning HP notebooks! I've personally reviewed an HP nc6230 business notebook in an extremely thorough fashion. It's a very simple, businesslike machine, and it feels very well built. The internal construction uses the same magnesium composites found in the T4x.

Now HP's consumer line of notebooks, like the dv1000 series, DO feel flimsy and DO have keyboards of suspect quality. I've typed on these guys at Staples and they flex pretty badly.

lithium726 wrote: 3) Youre complaining about design and wanting a T43p? The fan runs nonstop, theres the 2010 error, it gets [censored] for battery life, and the T42p was an all around better notebook.

4) HP's notebooks look like [censored], feel flimsy as all hell, have terrible keyboards, and are some of the most unreliable mahines I have ever used.

#21 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:25 pm

There's a refresh of the Napa platform in Q4 of this year, probably to coincide with Microsoft's launch of Windows Vista. Intel is adding the x64 compatible Merom to the Centrino platform.

Merom will be drop-in compatible with the current 945xM chipsets... look for a Merom-equipped T61 around the October timeframe!

As for a T70... sometime around Q1 or Q2 2007. That's the sceduled release date for the Santa Rosa platform.

csioucs wrote:All in all, the T60 will age harder and endure longer, and I think and that's a plus. Depends on the arrival of 64 bit computing and Lenovo's marketing if we'll have a T61 or a T70 by then.

#22 Post by **K. Eng** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:28 pm

I DO like the T60 series so far. No, I am not a fan of the crummy volume and ThinkVantage candy buttons, but the improved durability of the machine (roll cage), and vastly better battery life than the T4x far outweight some cosmetic differences.

dr_st · #23 Post by **dr_st** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 3:50 am

K. Eng wrote:I caution you on blanket statements concerning HP notebooks! I've personally reviewed an HP nc6230 business notebook in an extremely thorough fashion. It's a very simple, businesslike machine, and it feels very well built. The internal construction uses the same magnesium composites found in the T4x.

Now HP's consumer line of notebooks, like the dv1000 series, DO feel flimsy and DO have keyboards of suspect quality. I've typed on these guys at Staples and they flex pretty badly.

Exactly what I wanted to say. HP's business models are very solid. The NW8240 has high res screens, a trackpoint and a good keyboard layout too. I own a three-year-old Compaq Evo, which is also a business unit and still runs flawlessly. It even has replaceable trackpoint caps, so I have installed a Thinkpad cap on it to improve it greatly.

christopher_wolf · #24 Post by **christopher_wolf** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:07 am

Mmmm, I am not so sure HP can pull off the kind of stuff they did with the OmniBooks; I tried out their latest offerings and was significantly disappointed with the keyboard. The Screens and Trackpoints on the higher end models are good, but that is only on the top-of-line business series. On down from there it gets steadily worse until you get el cheapos that are meant to compete with Dell; and still don't pull in as much for HP as they would hope. The thing about the Thinkpads has been that they have been quality systems no matter how much you shelled out for them to begin with. A basic R40 should have durability very similar to that of a T40; likewise, the basic T40 should have the same durability as a fully decked out T43.

I recently had an HP Pavilion go out on me and an HP TC1100 tablet a friend of mine has is developing some bad hinge de-lamination near the back; the hinge of which is set in a less-than-optimal placement that results in some resistance when turning it. HP has a great variety of ideas and implementations, but unless you carefully pick the model you want (thoughts of going through HP parts catalogs..Scary), you pay more for something that is only a tad bit better than the average Dells out there.

danny_isr · #25 Post by **danny_isr** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:46 am

i think i will wait for the T61 as well with newer OS (Vista).
I cannot see how to justify to myself a move to a T60.
just to say i have the latest ...not good enough.

I can probably get a T60 without adding a cent (got mine with EPP and can get a T60 with EPP again).

Bottom line , I get the feeling that in real world there not going to be a huge jump in performance. Just like my T43 is not THAT faster then the older T42/41/40. Microsoft knows how to eat all your resources anyhow ....
No matter what PC you got , after few months it’s getting slow again

jeremivw · #26 Post by **jeremivw** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:11 am

danny_isr wrote:i think i will wait for the T61 as well with newer OS (Vista). I cannot see how to justify to myself a move to a T60.
just to say i have the latest ...not good enough.

Yeah but if you HAD to buy a new computer now and it were your first Thinkpad, wouldn't you go for the T60(p)?

Personally, I like XP BECAUSE it's old. I'm leary enough about buying so early on Intel's new Core Duo. I certainly wouldn't want to add a brand new MS OS into the mix.

I used Win2Kpro until about 2003 because I don't like doing post beta testing for Microsoft.

danny_isr · #27 Post by **danny_isr** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:17 am

jeremivw wrote:
Yeah but if you HAD to buy a new computer now and it were your first Thinkpad, wouldn't you go for the T60(p)?
|

Sure if i had to buy now new without owning a T43 i would go with the latest.
there is no way i would buy the older model (specially in the computer world). that's why i have hard time to understand guys that are buying today new T42s.
(and yes i know the pros and cons of each one, but value wise - T42 is older model ,and in the used market you going to get less for it day after you purchase it compared to a T43)

#28 Post by **JaneL** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:15 am

dr_st wrote:Exactly what I wanted to say. HP's business models are very solid. The NW8240 has high res screens, a trackpoint and a good keyboard layout too. I own a three-year-old Compaq Evo, which is also a business unit and still runs flawlessly. It even has replaceable trackpoint caps, so I have installed a Thinkpad cap on it to improve it greatly.

Having never seen a T60, I can't comment on it. I might agree with those who don't like it - just because it's says TP hasn't made me like all of them. I never did care for the 77x or Ax series. But I have been a fan of the T23 and T4x series and don't expect the T60 to disappoint me.

My work PC is HP's Compaq nc6220, and I agree with you and K. Eng that the HP business line is a solid piece of equipment and not to be confused with their consumer line. The screen is great, the keyboard layout is fine, and a plus is that it doesn't have the silly forward/backward keys in the cursor arrow configuration. Like you, I also replaced the trackpoint cap with a TP one (the softdome). That helped with pointer control.

But it has disappointed me as there are things about it that I just don't like.

The keyboard is horrible. I don't know of any other way to describe it. The feel of the keys is just wrong somehow. They seem to me to be flatter and not as responsive. After 3.5 months of use, I'm still making typos that I just don't make on my personal TP T40 even though I use the HP far more now than I do the T40.

Another annoying thing with the HP is that the status lights are along the front edge. If I'm sitting with it in my lap, I have to raise my arm up to see if the WiFi is on, the HDD is spinning or if the battery light has turned orange.

And, it's heavier than the comparably sized T40.

#29 Post by **K. Eng** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:24 am

It is unfortunately true that the nc6200 series keyboard is not as good as the T4x. The keys are indeed flatter and sit lower in the base of the machine. I believe this was a conscious design choice becauase it reduces keymarks on the LCD when the lid is closed. The HP's feedback is also not as good as the ThinkPad's. The keys on my T40 have a much more satisfying strike than the keys on the nc6230 I tested.

The status lights don't bother me... I can hear HDD activity, and the icons in the system tray can tell me if stuff is on or charging.

As long as the T60's keyboard has the same solid feel as my T40, I should be a fan

nonny wrote:The keyboard is horrible. I don't know of any other way to describe it. The feel of the keys is just wrong somehow. They seem to me to be flatter and not as responsive. After 3.5 months of use, I'm still making typos that I just don't make on my personal TP T40 even though I use the HP far more now than I do the T40.

Another annoying thing with the HP is that the status lights are along the front edge. If I'm sitting with it in my lap, I have to raise my arm up to see if the WiFi is on, the HDD is spinning or if the battery light has turned orange.

And, it's heavier than the comparably sized T40.

guys do you really like the T60?

guys do you really like the T60?

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